[manson]

Originally Posted by Livnletcarsliv

Yes, I will be doing a X1 TD shortly - most likely this week. However, there are 2 things that I want to know
1. Given that the new X1 is around the corner, and compared to market standards (Tiguan, Tuscon, 700, Kodiaq, Harrier, etc), how is the outgoing X1 perceived? Based on the discounts available, what is a fair price for X1 20d (55L ONR - carwale)?
2. Am I right to assume that the average maintenance cost per year is around 1.5lakh?

You will have to move fast if you're keen on the outgoing X1. The new generation is being launched on 27th January and BMW has done well to move most of its inventory.

1. There was a 5 lac discount on the last diesel X1 available with Infinity as of yesterday. Frankly for a last generation nearly discontinued product I would not go near it without a 10 lac discount.

2. Maintenance cost should be maximum 50K/year for the first 5 years and 100K/year thereon.

[yedukrishnan199]

Originally Posted by Livnletcarsliv

Overall, I like the most of it. While I am trying hard to compromise on the looks (both interior and exterior), my biggest concern is the snob value - Is it worth spending 42L for a 5 seater Hyundai while I get => 70%-80% of Tucson (Harrier, Hector, 700) for 12-15L cheaper?. I feel that 700, Hector and the facelifted Harrier to be 100% value for money than this Tucson. Of course, reliability and ASS experience are the biggest exceptions in favour of Hyundai though (Hector is again a no-nonsense car with probably a better ASS experience than Hyundai). I am definitely not convinced with the pricing of Tucson.

Considering your requirements, the best option would be to either wait for the 2023 Harrier or go ahead with the Brand new Hector or XUV700, If the Hector Diesel appeals to you, do check it out. The engine on the Hector and the Harrier is the same after all, but the Hector is loaded with features. The XUV700 would be a great pick too.

[TSI_Exhaust]

Hey Livnletcarsliv!

After reading your thread starter post here and keeping in mind that you require the following :

1. A 5-seater.
2. A spirited ride with handling & stability.
3. Reliability (especially considering your recent experience)
4. Fuel economy.
5. Automatic over a manual. (can make an exception though)

.. I would say go with either the Jeep Compass Diesel (Limited or S variant, if you are confident of going past the initial niggles. Manual or AT? Drive and decide what appeals to you) or Tucson Signature Diesel AT.

I rejected the XUV 700 immediately as I, as a buyer, would want the car to be delivered to me in this lifetime.
I rejected the Tiguan as it is a petrol only car (since mileage is a concern) and because the ride quality isn't the best (a tad too stiff).
I rejected the C5 as I am not sure how long will Citroen as a brand survive in India given their current lineup.

The Tucson, I feel, is the safest to bet on.

NOTE : Read the replies a bit more and was surprised that you are even considering the Harrier again.
Why do you want to go with a product that has issues even after ~4 years since its introduction to the market? TATA is famous for poor QC. Moreover, you have had a recent bad experience with it. Frankly, don't understand this choice.

As far as the outside choice of going with the Octavia is concerned, you will miss the FE which I think is important for you since you covered 48K kms in about 2yrs 10 months in the lemon Harrier.

[Livnletcarsliv]

Originally Posted by TSI_Exhaust

.. I would say go with either the Jeep Compass Diesel (Limited or S variant, if you are confident of going past the initial niggles. Manual or AT? Drive and decide what appeals to you) or Tucson Signature Diesel AT.

NOTE : Read the replies a bit more and was surprised that you are even considering the Harrier again.
Why do you want to go with a product that has issues even after ~4 years since its introduction to the market? TATA is famous for poor QC. Moreover, you have had a recent bad experience with it. Frankly, don't understand this choice.

As far as the outside choice of going with the Octavia is concerned, you will miss the FE which I think is important for you since you covered 48K kms in about 2yrs 10 months in the lemon Harrier.

Reasons for not even considering Jeep (Compass) - Worse than Tata when it comes to unreliability, given the low volumes of Compass' sold and too small a size for that price.

Now, why I still MAY (undecided yet) consider Harrier - It is 27L on-road (even with the facelift it will not cross 28-28.5L) for the top end - so significant savings over ANY alternatives. It is a perfect car for me - in terms of space, features, driving dynamics, ride, handling, size, looks, etc. My lemon car was BS4 beta version. It's a different car now with niggles. Also I am now well versed with the car - so if anything goes wrong most likely I will know the issue even before the SC engineer/technician diagnoses. Again, in terms of unreliability, even XUV700, Tiguan, and Compass are not far behind. There is no car without niggles, whether it's a CKD, CBU or local manufactured. I am ready to live with minor niggles as long as I don't get a lemon again.
The other most important factor is that there is isn't any appropriate replacement for Harrier in terms of driving dynamics - The cheapest replacement is Tiguan and Tucson.

Tucson is a 100% reliable car, but it is almost 15L expensive (12L for 2WD) than Harrier. If it was about 8L-10L expensive, then it is Tucson eyes closed. So the question is whether is it worth spending 12-15L more for Tucson?

Octavia was just a choice out of the blue because of the demo car. Anyway that is already done and dusted. No more Octavia.

[TSI_Exhaust]

From a neutral perspective I ask, the Compass being worse than the Harrier when it comes to reliability? Full respect to you but is this your own opinion or has someone told you this? I think the Compass is way way more reliable as a product vs the Harrier. But anyways, as I said, I respect your opinion.

And completely agree with the fact that you will be spending considerably more amount of money if you go with the Tucson but what you will get in return is a longer lasting product which you can bet on being more niggle free than the Harrier. To top it off, it has been crash tested as well and has better interiors, features and build quality as it is coming via the CKD route. A costlier car now will turn out to be cheaper in the long run.

What is the guarantee of the new Harrier NOT being a lemon given TATA's poor QC? Niggles I understand.

M & M is ever so slightly better than TATA but that's about it. Not much confidence inspiring for me personally. If budget is strictly a constraint then I understand this choice as well.

For the Octavia, I understand you rejecting it as per your requirements.

Anyways, best of luck with whatever you decide eventually and happy purchasing. Do let is know what you bought finally.

[Livnletcarsliv]

Originally Posted by TSI_Exhaust

From a neutral perspective I ask, the Compass being worse than the Harrier when it comes to reliability? Full respect to you but is this your own opinion or has someone told you this? I think the Compass is way way more reliable as a product vs the Harrier. But anyways, as I said, I respect your opinion.

A costlier car now will turn out to be cheaper in the long run.

What is the guarantee of the new Harrier NOT being a lemon given TATA's poor QC? Niggles I understand.

M & M is ever so slightly better than TATA but that's about it. Not much confidence inspiring for me personally. If budget is strictly a constraint then I understand this choice as well.

For the Octavia, I understand you rejecting it as per your requirements.

Anyways, best of luck with whatever you decide eventually and happy purchasing. Do let is know what you bought finally.

Sure I will keep this thread live until I get the car home.

You are 100% true about the fact that an expensive car now is always cheaper in the long run than a cheap car now and changing it in 4-5-6 years. That is reason for considering Tucson, Tiguan and the likes.

Now why is a Compass more unreliable compared to Harrier - It is because of the sales volumes and the product itself.
Compass is a global product which as a model is more than 15 years old. Harrier is just a 4 year old local product. A global product with a decent history cannot and should not be unreliable no matter what. Harrier sells more than 8 times the volume of Compass per month on an average. But still we hear, see, read and know as much nightmares and unsatisfied stories about Compass as that of Harrier. This is a validation of how committed Jeep is to India. It will be no surprise if tomorrow Jeep packs up from India.

There is absolutely no guarantee that I will not a get lemon Harrier again. And I don't have hopes and neither trust Tata this time either. That is the reason why Harrier is still under consideration only. Had Tata shown some commitment and improvement in terms of QC, customer support and ASS experience, then it is a different ball game altogether.

Even though budget matters, Tucson is still considered because I can stretch it with some personal compromises. But how it is priced is a major concern.

[Livnletcarsliv]

Progressive update 5.
Yesterday, I took the TD of XUV700 Diesel AT AXL FWD.

Positive observations
1. It's a significant and remarkable leap for M&M in terms of the overall product itself.
2. Loaded to the brim with all the features (except for the ventilated seats, sliding 2nd row). And it is a spacious for 5+2 seater.
3. It definitely gives you a feel that you sitting in a premium car especially with those well integrated double screen cockpit - a Mercedes/BMW feel may be. Of course, just ignoring the comparative quality.
4. The steering is so light at slow speeds, it lets you forget that you are driving a 7 (5+2) seater. The size so well masked by that light steering. It literally a delight in the urban conditions and parking situations.
5. The NVH is well controlled for a 2.2 diesel mill.

Negative observations
1. The steering is even though light, it is totally lifeless at slow speeds (as already reviewed by many here and everywhere). I have to mind where the wheels were positioned.
2. While I was not able to sustain high speeds, the steering feedback was better than the slow speeds but I felt it was still lagging something. It still could not connect to it. It could have been better at high speeds.
3. This car is big for my use case. I only need a 5 seater. Even though I can still live with a 7 seater, this is no Kodiaq, Endeavour, Fortuner, or even a Crysta for the special consideration.
4. The suspension/ride was not as comfortable as that of Harrier, though not a deal breaker. The ride was definitely better in Harrier (Again, not miles ahead). Of course, Harrier being a shorter 5 seater, it handles better than the 700.
5. I was unable to find the right driving position even after so much of adjustments. I guess or may be I should just get used to (or) it is just a matter of time.

Overall, it is a good car. And this is definitely a fantastic job well executed by an Indian brand.

PS - This is the same car that costs 17L and 31L. Of course, with the addition of many bells and whistles, better seats, AWD and so on. But I am still wondering whether is it really worth that 14L extra money. I would have preferred a special edition or something unique/upmarket that justifies this 14L expensiveness. But I guess it is the market norms - Hyryder, Grand Vitara, Creta, Seltos, Harrier, Safari, etc.

While all this is going on, I got an update from the VW dealer on the pricing for Tiguan. They quoted me 38.8 Lakhs for Tiguan Exclusive with all the bells and whistles, AWD and including 5th and 6th year warranty. So all inclusive of 4+2 warranty it is 38.8 lakhs (a 3.3L discount). While I am still trying to bring it down further, is this a good deal for car that matches all my requirements except for 2 (Ride quality a bit hard - which I think I should compromise and Petrol only option - I don't mind spending the additional money on my monthly fuel expenses because I its a drivers delight CKD VW)? Please advice.

[TSI_Exhaust]

Originally Posted by Livnletcarsliv

While all this is going on, I got an update from the VW dealer on the pricing for Tiguan. They quoted me 38.8 Lakhs for Tiguan Exclusive with all the bells and whistles, AWD and including 5th and 6th year warranty. So all inclusive of 4+2 warranty it is 38.8 lakhs (a 3.3L discount). While I am still trying to bring it down further, is this a good deal for car that matches all my requirements except for 2 (Ride quality a bit hard - which I think I should compromise and Petrol only option - I don't mind spending the additional money on my monthly fuel expenses because I its a drivers delight CKD VW)? Please advice.

With the extended warranty that is a good deal for the Tiguan Exclusive. Yes, try to push for a bit more discount if possible. It isn't at par with the ~40L tag I believe.

The hard ride quality is what that bugs me a little bit but I think some of that could be managed with lower PSI tyre pressure may be.

If I were to ask you what you would pick right now as you have taken many TDs, what would you say? What does the shortlisted list look like?

[Livnletcarsliv]

Originally Posted by TSI_Exhaust

If I were to ask you what you would pick right now as you have taken many TDs, what would you say? What does the shortlisted list look like?

With only the Hycross left behind (Hycross most likely will not be considered because of its size alone), I think I have evaluated all the possible options based on my requirements.
So with the current options, I have to make compromises with all the products.

1. Tucson - My compromise would be the looks (both internal and external) and of course, the cost which is the primary factor - this is the most expensive of the lot. I don't think I can stretch that much to buy a CKD product that was hiked by 1L within 3 months of launch. 41.4L for 2WD and 43.2L for AWD is too much.
2. Tiguan AWD - I have to compromise on the ride quality which is ok. However, given that the product is stopped, I definitely want a further reduction in the price which is why I am negotiating. And it is a petrol option, and for my use case, I will have high monthly fuel bills which is again a compromise. However, I will never have the DPF issues and I don't have to worry about the future of this ad-hoc and non-sensical government ban on diesel.
3. 700 - I have to compromise on a lot of things here (compared to Harrier). There is nothing that is better (for my use case) in 700 compared to Harrier. In fact, Harrier is better in the ride & handling areas which is one of my primary requirements. Of course, the 700 is more feature-rich than the Harrier. But I will never use those features at all. And again 7 seats is not my use case.
4. Harrier - Again the same Tata story and experience. I don't have any deal-breaking issues with the product as such.

While I am awaiting the facelift Harrier, I am also waiting for the Qashqai, user feedback of Hycross, and of course the budget.

[Livnletcarsliv]

A quick update

From the above shortlist, I am letting go the 700 due to the same reasons that is mentioned above, especially since I am not going use the ADAS (IMHO it is not a useful feature in India because it can never be used in the urban or township environments. I don't have to spend 2.5-3 lakhs extra to use a feature occasionally even out on the highways.

On the other hand, I am seriously considering the Tucson (I have to compromise on the looks) Platinum variant over the Signature variant which brings down the price by almost 3.3 lakhs, because, I don't need ADAS, passenger side electric seat adjustment, passenger seat walk-in device, driver memory function, hands free smart powered tail gate with height adjustment. The only feature that I will miss is the ventilated seats (which I think I will have to find an after market solution or check with Hyundai to swap the seats), though is not a deal breaker - even Tiguan & 700 do not have ventilated seats. Given the reliability of Hyundai and it costs marginally less than the Tiguan (including all the extended warranties for both), the trade off here will be the DPF issues, which I think for my use case it not a deal breaker because, it will also be a diesel if I choose to go with Harrier/700 as well. While I can also save significantly save on the fuel bills compared to Tiguan. The only extra that I am getting on the Tiguan is the AWD which in my 3 years of use, only once did I feel the need of a 4*4 (not a AWD though). Even that was an intentional adventurous situation which I will never do it again. All in all, I never felt the need of an AWD since I don't do off-roading.

So now shortlist is down to 3 - Tucson Platinum AT 2WD, Tiguan AWD, Upcoming Harrier 2WD.

[Kosfactor]

The last time around after your research you ended up with a vehicle that gave you a lot of headache. This time around your research has led you to two vehicles that are on a race to their way to the bottom - Tucson and Tiguan, not sure which will get discontinued first in India.

If you are going to use them as daily drivers consider breakage repair and the time it would take once these vehicles are off the market given how less they sell in numbers.

[Livnletcarsliv]

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

The last time around after your research you ended up with a vehicle that gave you a lot of headache. This time around your research has led you to two vehicles that are on a race to their way to the bottom - Tucson and Tiguan, not sure which will get discontinued first in India.

I don’t think both of them will be discontinued at all. Yes I understand they will sell in small numbers compared to 700 or Harrier, but so will be Compass, Meridian, Kodiaq, C5, Gloster, etc. Hyundai (and Kia) will be number 2 in India and will hold a major market share for many years to come. And considering it is a Hyundai & Skoda, where both the brands are committed to India, I also don’t think there will be an issue with the service as well. The only high volume brand in the 30L to 50L will be the Toyota - both the cars (Fortuner and Hycross) are too big for my use case. Even otherwise, the upcoming Qashqai, or any other 5 seater from Honda/Renault/etc in this price range WILL only be CKDs.

[07CR]

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

The last time around after your research you ended up with a vehicle that gave you a lot of headache. This time around your research has led you to two vehicles that are on a race to their way to the bottom - Tucson and Tiguan, not sure which will get discontinued first in India.

Originally Posted by Livnletcarsliv

I don’t think both of them will be discontinued at all.

I agree with Kosfactor on Tiguan. Pretty sure Hyundai won't discontinue Tucson so soon, but not sure about Tiguan. It may get discontinued in near future.

[Livnletcarsliv]

Originally Posted by 07CR

I agree with Kosfactor on Tiguan. Pretty sure Hyundai won't discontinue Tucson so soon, but not sure about Tiguan. It may get discontinued in near future.

I don't think VW will want to sell only the India 2.0 models (Taigun & Virtus) in India. If they want to give that VW experience and position themselves, then WILL have to offer more - Tiguan, Passat, T-roc or something else. None of the models (Octavia, Superb, Kodiaq, Tiguan) will be stopped permanently, but will be brought back in a different powertrain combo. In that case, there are a lot of possibilities that even Tata (Harrier/Safari) and M&M (700) will stop diesel cars in the next 2 years. I am sure you already know that Tata announced in 2021/22 IIRC, that there will not be any new upgrade or investment in diesel powertrains.

There are many of my friends who still use Fiat & Ford. And they are happy with the service support. IMHO, Tiguan/Tucson or the likes getting discontinued in India is too extreme and unrealistic to worry about at this point of time.

[Livnletcarsliv]

A quick update

Today I am doing the final round of price negotiation with the VW dealer here. Based on the outcome of the discussion and final price, I will take a call. They have the following options
1. 2022 new car - 38.8L (including 4+2 years warranty).
2. 2022 demo car done just 3000kms - No price shared.
3. 2021 factory display car done 0kms - 37.8L (including 3+2 years warranty).

Let's how it goes.