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Old 25th February 2011, 17:49   #2746
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Default Re: Lifters -- Help with Deadlifts programming

mandheers,
With all due respect, thanks for the advice, and I really appreciate the suggestions about grip and rep ranges.
But I am not sure if we belong to the same school of thought.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mandheers View Post
My first question here would be: have you really seen progress in your back due to deadlifts, and I mean deadlifts alone?

Yes, and way better than, not deadlifting

If yes, then you are lucky; if not then welcome to the family.

Deadlift is a pure powerlifting movement and not intended to be of any use for bodyuilders; definitely not for fitness enthusiasts at anywhere close to the weight you pulling.

I am not sure if this is true. May be. I am not a bodybuilder to be considered. Dont know if they have a name for kind of people like me, but I am more of a strength training kind of person.

The max I have last deadlifted is 410lbs (45lbs x 8plates + 25lbs x 2plates), and this was before my back injury.

I still have a prolapsed disc issue; but that is not the only reason I stopped these stupid exercises. Deadlifts, Squats, Bent Overs etc. (there are many more) so called classic lifts are best done with proper form and moderate to heavy weight; if only; but never superheavy.

You are calling squats and deadlifts as stupid -- I must say you have not seen the kind of powerlifters with incredibly built bodies(in real life I have seen that kind of people). Checkout the history of training for Arnold Schwarzeneger who is arguably the best body builder there was. And pls try to read about professional bodybuilding pre steroid era.
Yes they are to be done with proper form, but that goes without saying.
And I really do not think 3X bodyweight deadlift is anything to be termed superheavy.


Guys always load up a bar just to see how much they can lift. That's not bodybuilding and; as with squats; many guys just aren't built for deadlifts.

Indeed that is not bodybuilding. That is strength training or weight training. Definitely not body building as publicised by Men's health and similar publications.

The ideal shape is a short frame/ stature with relatively long arms, so this becomes a strength exercise that hits the glutes and legs as much as the back.

Deadlifts hit the whole of posterior chain and give you raw strength to be used in real life. Glutes and legs are one of the most important and most neglected muscle groups. Look at our generation of chicken legged people.

Try top deadlifts off a Smith machine or a rack, the trick’s to ensure the bar doesn't go below knee-level, that way you focus mostly on your back instead of legs, hips and glutes, you strain less and reduce the risk of injury.

I dont want to 'only' hit my back. I am fine with deadlift working my glutes and legs as well.
I am never going to work with Smith machine for reasons already discussed in this thread. My experience too. About the rack, I will give it a go at rack pulls.


But since you seems to have your goal set on 3X; I doubt if I would be able to deter you; but will still advise against it. I am 220lbs and cant see myself pulling 3X off the floor.

So, to answer your question: Use Harbingers (with hooks) or Schieks with regular straps; they work wonders to your lifts and grip but at 3X your weight it would mostly go to the wrist.

Thanks. Will try to source these

Lastly 4 x 4 is way better and sparing than 5 x 5. You will grow and so will your lift.

Never heard this before. But I WILL try this for sure. Pls do not dismiss my arguments as pure negativity. I dont see myofibrillar hypertrophy(is it the right term ?) being induced higher by 4X4. But I will surely try.
My sticking on to 5X5 is simply based on the gurus like Mark Rippletoe, Glen Pendlay etc.

The other bit is to use plates of larger radius; this gives the bar a better height to be cleared off the floor and helps on gripwork; a thicker bar also works better. Thats what grips and gloves do basically too.

Be safe; and yes: scream regardless, it's fun at times.
Please do not consider this as criticism. My views and experience. Sorry about your injury. If it is from Deadlifts, I think it should be bad form to blame.

One more point -- people who do not work with deadlift and do go heavy on bench press are simply creating a strength imbalance. And purely my opinion -- those people who work their upper body (parts of it) 3 times a week, and work their whole lower body for half a session are in for some odd looking physique. Most of our so called well physiqued actors hide their chicken legs under cleverly designed trousers.

Last edited by ashokrajagopal : 25th February 2011 at 17:56.
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Old 25th February 2011, 19:31   #2747
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Default Re: Bodybuilding - Exercises and Supplements

@ ashokrajagopal: You sound sweet; assumptious but sweet. I agree with most of what you say; but I can also sense a tone here. Guess the thread's about bodybuilding hence it's due to stem.

I am only happy that deadlifting is working for you and even happier that 3X is not superheavy for you; at whatever weight you are.

But please avoid being assumptious. You can reserve your comments about me not having seen the most exposed man on the face of International cinema etc. or having not read about an era which I feel never existed, because Professional Bodybuilding has always been with 'help'; but that's my opinion and I dont blame the Reeves and Girondas.

My injury was an accident; two actually and nowhere close to gym. Sometimes even the most strict form might cause injury. Gym injuries are also signs that someone is pushing it hard.

Yes it is myofibriliar hypertrophy, for weightlifters, since you don't wish to be classified as a bodybuilder; that would've been sarcoplasmic hypertrophy.

I don't mind criticism; not from kids I barely know and on a forum I am trying to share my learnings and I surely understand the phrase 'with all due respect'. We are here to post and try help each other in like interests; are bound to be opinionated and I'm sure you don't take that otherwise.

That said, you could make straps for yourself (check images attached) and do try 4x4; you are effectively lifting more weight in lesser sets because you saving the 9 reps of work. (including 1 full set) Do a drop set at the end to get you lifting more the next time you train.
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Old 25th February 2011, 20:18   #2748
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Mandheers, 3X of my bodyweight is not a big weight. May be I was not clear about that before, my target is 3X of my current bodyweight. Falls close to 475 lbs. May be i would reset the goal when/if I achieve my current goal.
Anyways, its a goal, and when there are people who can deadlift over 1000 lbs multiple times, I should not be thinking 500 lbs is anything that is classified as 'super'.

And sure professional bodybuilding today is influenced too much by steroids, but there was an era in bodybuilding prior to steroids. Decades back steroids were something which were used as the last stepping stone in bodybuilding, which of course is not the condition now.
All that I am trying to convey is that there is no absolute strength getting created naturally without the actual classic exercises, and physique is a side effect to the added strength. I am not that strong, nor that physically attractive, but my experience with other people prove this. So when you actually term squats and deadlifts as 'stupid', I sure had to assume something.
International cinema's most exposed man is also a 7 time Mr. Olympia winner, albeit with help. He could deadlift 700 lbs while he was bodybuilding. So apparently, there is no way bodybuilders could do without classic lifts then.
Anyways, my assumption about your not seeing people did not include Schwarzeneger. I meant real people in real life, and may be you would have seen and worked with them. Sorry if I sounded rude.
The case is different now anyways.

Would really love to know your take on bench press. Would you advice that and what could be a good strength standard in terms of times of body weight ?

Last edited by ashokrajagopal : 25th February 2011 at 20:31.
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Old 25th February 2011, 20:48   #2749
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Default Re: Bodybuilding - Exercises and Supplements

ALLOW ME TO JUMP IN THIS:

Quote:
1. My first question here would be: have you really seen progress in your back due to deadlifts, and I mean deadlifts alone?

1. Yes, and way better than, not deadlifting
1. We first need to establish that the back referred to here is actually erector spinae, and not the lats that ppl usually include in the back. In deadlift movement lats are used just to tuck the elbows at side – one position – compared to say chin ups where they contract and extend and thus cause widening of the “back”.


Quote:
2. If yes, then you are lucky; if not then welcome to the family.

Deadlift is a pure powerlifting movement and not intended to be of any use for bodyuilders; definitely not for fitness enthusiasts at anywhere close to the weight you pulling.

2. I am not sure if this is true. May be. I am not a bodybuilder to be considered. Dont know if they have a name for kind of people like me, but I am more of a strength training kind of person.
2. Deadlifting causes extreme fatigue – which is not just metabolic and limited to the muscle cells but also the motor units of the nerve cells. Good if you wish to improve the powerlifting figures, however, for increasing the muscular mass, you would need to subject the muscle to more volume (in terms of reps and sets) that you could while maintaining high intensity on deadlifts.

Of course the better is the natural muscularity (also known as genetics) the lesser work your muscles require in order to grow. So you may grow even with a powerlifting geared or even Olympic weightlifting geared training!


Quote:
3. The max I have last deadlifted is 410lbs (45lbs x 8plates + 25lbs x 2plates), and this was before my back injury.

I still have a prolapsed disc issue; but that is not the only reason I stopped these stupid exercises. Deadlifts, Squats, Bent Overs etc. (there are many more) so called classic lifts are best done with proper form and moderate to heavy weight; if only; but never superheavy.

3. You are calling squats and deadlifts as stupid -- I must say you have not seen the kind of powerlifters with incredibly built bodies(in real life I have seen that kind of people). Checkout the history of training for Arnold Schwarzeneger who is arguably the best body builder there was. And pls try to read about professional bodybuilding pre steroid era.
Yes they are to be done with proper form, but that goes without saying.
And I really do not think 3X bodyweight deadlift is anything to be termed superheavy.
3. Most powerlifters with “incredible built” are the ones who are again “genetically gifted”. For every “incredible built” powerlifter I can show you two who are just like pieces of cylinders. That is bone structure and genes working for you – not the training regime. These ppl would’ve had fantastic physique even if they were doing gymnastics!

Though, I agree, labeling certain exercises as stupid is not really productive. They have worked for many ppl, and they can work for most ppl in future also.


Quote:
4. Guys always load up a bar just to see how much they can lift. That's not bodybuilding and; as with squats; many guys just aren't built for deadlifts.

4. Indeed that is not bodybuilding. That is strength training or weight training. Definitely not body building as publicised by Men's health and similar publications.
4. Agreed. Body building = BODY building. You may even be stuck at same “strength” levels – but still improve your physique considerably.


Quote:
5. The ideal shape is a short frame/ stature with relatively long arms, so this becomes a strength exercise that hits the glutes and legs as much as the back.

5. Deadlifts hit the whole of posterior chain and give you raw strength to be used in real life. Glutes and legs are one of the most important and most neglected muscle groups. Look at our generation of chicken legged people.
5. LOL. Pecs and biceps for the win! Bro - how much can you bench. Bro show me your guns ...


Quote:
6. Try top deadlifts off a Smith machine or a rack, the trick’s to ensure the bar doesn't go below knee-level, that way you focus mostly on your back instead of legs, hips and glutes, you strain less and reduce the risk of injury.

6. I dont want to 'only' hit my back. I am fine with deadlift working my glutes and legs as well.
I am never going to work with Smith machine for reasons already discussed in this thread. My experience too. About the rack, I will give it a go at rack pulls.
6. If you are doing deadlifts by bring the bar to “dead” rest – by keeping on the floor, you should get sufficient rest to the finger/hand assembly. Otherwise you may be lifting off again too soon (for the next rep).


Quote:
7. But since you seems to have your goal set on 3X; I doubt if I would be able to deter you; but will still advise against it. I am 220lbs and cant see myself pulling 3X off the floor.

So, to answer your question: Use Harbingers (with hooks) or Schieks with regular straps; they work wonders to your lifts and grip but at 3X your weight it would mostly go to the wrist.

7. Thanks. Will try to source these
Quote:
8. Lastly 4 x 4 is way better and sparing than 5 x 5. You will grow and so will your lift.

8. Never heard this before. But I WILL try this for sure. Pls do not dismiss my arguments as pure negativity. I dont see myofibrillar hypertrophy(is it the right term ?) being induced higher by 4X4. But I will surely try.
My sticking on to 5X5 is simply based on the gurus like Mark Rippletoe, Glen Pendlay etc.
8. 4 reps may be 1 rep too low to cause actual hypertrophy. Weightlifters use 3 rep scheme to stay in the same weight class and improve their neural capabilities to increase weights. Powerlifter use 5 rep scheme because it gives some direct stimulation to the muscles – thus growing them, along with CNS stimulation.

Of course, nothing is set in stone, and some ppl may indeed grow large with 4 rep regimen, whereas some ppl may not grow even with 10-12 reps! It boils to genetics again (how much of testosterone is running in your blood, and HOW much of it being used for anabolic purpose).

Quote:
9. The other bit is to use plates of larger radius; this gives the bar a better height to be cleared off the floor and helps on gripwork; a thicker bar also works better. Thats what grips and gloves do basically too.

Be safe; and yes: scream regardless, it's fun at times.
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Old 25th February 2011, 20:55   #2750
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Default Re: Bodybuilding - Exercises and Supplements

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashokrajagopal View Post
Mandheers, 3X of my bodyweight is not a big weight. May be I was not clear about that before, my target is 3X of my current bodyweight. Falls close to 475 lbs. May be i would reset the goal when/if I achieve my current goal.
Anyways, its a goal, and when there are people who can deadlift over 1000 lbs multiple times, I should not be thinking 500 lbs is anything that is classified as 'super'.

And sure professional bodybuilding today is influenced too much by steroids, but there was an era in bodybuilding prior to steroids. Decades back steroids were something which were used as the last stepping stone in bodybuilding, which of course is not the condition now.
All that I am trying to convey is that there is no absolute strength getting created naturally without the actual classic exercises, and physique is a side effect to the added strength. I am not that strong, nor that physically attractive, but my experience with other people prove this. So when you actually term squats and deadlifts as 'stupid', I sure had to assume something.
International cinema's most exposed man is also a 7 time Mr. Olympia winner, albeit with help. He could deadlift 700 lbs while he was bodybuilding. So apparently, there is no way bodybuilders could do without classic lifts then.
Anyways, my assumption about your not seeing people did not include Schwarzeneger. I meant real people in real life, and may be you would have seen and worked with them. Sorry if I sounded rude.
The case is different now anyways.

Would really love to know your take on bench press. Would you advice that and what could be a good strength standard in terms of times of body weight ?
This will help: Weightlifting Performance Standards
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Old 25th February 2011, 20:58   #2751
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Default Re: Bodybuilding - Exercises and Supplements

Wow, the discussion is getting too technical.

Anyway, everybody please keep the discussion clean. Attack ideas, not people. If I see mockery, sword will start swinging on the posts.
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Old 25th February 2011, 21:50   #2752
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Default Re: Bodybuilding - Exercises and Supplements

I enjoyed reading this page. Its like the thread was dying slowly since months and suddenly got an insulin shot
Personally i will never do deadlift again as it caused me a back injury and that scared the hell out of me. In fact many people n trainers i interact with advise not to do deadlifts as slightest of slip in form can cause a major injury.
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Old 25th February 2011, 22:43   #2753
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Wow, the discussion is getting too technical.

Anyway, everybody please keep the discussion clean. Attack ideas, not people. If I see mockery, sword will start swinging on the posts.
Thanks for the much needed shot-in-the-arm heads-up Samurai. Affirmative to that one!
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Old 25th February 2011, 22:45   #2754
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alpha1 View Post
exrx.net; that's been my stepping stone for many years now.

Two thumbs up to that alpha1.
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Old 25th February 2011, 23:16   #2755
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashokrajagopal View Post
Mandheers, 3X of my bodyweight is not a big weight. May be I was not clear about that before, my target is 3X of my current bodyweight........The case is different now anyways.

Would really love to know your take on bench press. Would you advice that and what could be a good strength standard in terms of times of body weight ?
I don't advise the bench press anymore than I do the deadlift. In fact I have not been on a flat bench for a chest workout in over 2 years. The only thing I use and recommend is a flat bench is to train the triceps with a close grip.

Personally, I have never fallen prey to benchmarks, measurement/ weight/ lift standards. I read somewhere and loved what Sohail mentioned about imagining or picturing how you want a body part or your entire body to be and going to work about it.

Over the years I realized that people bench just to anshwer the question: "What do you bench?". I feel free-weight bench presses pose undue stress on my shoulders.

The max I would've benched would be 270lbs (45lbs x 6plates). The last I remember doing on the flat bench; sometime last year; would be 160lbs (45lbs x 2plates + 35lbs x 2plates).

Nowadays I prefer the decline bench and train more on cable crossovers/ flyes/ pec deck and even parallel bars.

The few exercises I advocate and recommend are as foll:
1. Hack Squats
2. Chin Ups
3. Shoulder work (mostly lateral & rear delt raises)
4. Leg Curls
5. Calf Raises
6. Dumbell Curls + Reverse Bar Curls
7. Close Grip Tricep Press + Overhead Extensions
8. Hyperextensions + Ab work
9. Leg Press (only on days I am tired as I want to avoid going overboard)
10. Seated shoulder presses

Might've missed a few but the point is I love working out; I lift for the love of it, and I have passed the stage where the weight on the bar mattered, considering I first took a gym membership in 1995.

As I see it- there are 2 sides to training:
1. What you can lift and move, 2. What you got to show for it.

After my injury, I decided to work more on point 2 and in doing so I haven't made a worrisome dent on my lift either.

Lastly, please do not take offense and make it a 'different case'; ask if need be, and you will get honest answers to the extent of my experience; but please avoid asking in a 'tone'.
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Old 26th February 2011, 00:35   #2756
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@Mandheers, I did not intend to actually ask anything the tone you mentioned. That was an honest question of opinion that I asked, assuming that you would have had experience for many years. I apologize again if I sounded rude.
I am not an awesome body builder or powerlifter, but certainly know that everybody's opinion has to be taken in and when it comes to weights you never know what works for you.

About the set of exercises you mentioned, I believe that some of them are more isolation oriented, missing out on compound movements. Eg. Leg press is an awesome movement for quads, but that does not involve much of hamstring. If it did, everybody would have been able to squat as much weight as they leg press. Unless a person works really hard on his leg curls, he would never balance the strength he has. While he runs about or does some physical activity, this is prone to injury. One of the reasons why you would see many youngsters in sports pull their hamstring so often.
Hack squat helps in hams, but if you mean the newer version done on a machine, I dint benefit anything from my trials. Not sure.

The bench press of course puts stress on shoulders. Mostly because of inflexibility is where I have ended up believing. A few exercises done daily for shoulder flexibility, and stress on form works for me. I do agree on the shoulder impact.


@ alpha1, thanks for the info bro.
I still stand by my words earlier. There are too many people working their *** of on the bench and doing 5 kinds of curls. People ought to work their legs. I am not asking to skip working chest or biceps. Well balanced physique means very well developed legs too.
About my bench strength, I have actually crossed over 1.25Xbodyweight for 5 reps earlier. This time around, dint reach there yet, but reaching bodyweight.
I dont curl anymore. The only exercise that I do that puts direct impact on my biceps is the chinup with a close grip.

This link from ExRx is good. Thanks ! So my goal of 3Xbodyweight was not an unrealistic one for an advanced lifter. I am not advanced, but sure can shoot for being one.

@mandheers and alpha1, I am seriously not questioning any principle here. I am not arguing that deadlift does what it is not supposed to do for me. All I am saying is there is no replacement for deadlift. And for that matter, for squat. They work on hypertrophy, well balanced strength and size gains. May be inferior in size gains from some other exercises, but surely better than any other in strength gains.
I am not a hardcore powerlifter who does only the 3 lifts. I do almost all free weight exercises, but my program is revolved around squat, deadlift and bench press.
The only way I see it is that you should not stop doing an exercise because it is tough or you need to be careful while doing it. Challenging the body to grow means making it do things which are tough to do. Thats my way of seeing it.
The strength you gain from these exercises can be used in others to increase the volume for size.
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Old 26th February 2011, 00:46   #2757
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harry10 View Post
I enjoyed reading this page. Its like the thread was dying slowly since months and suddenly got an insulin shot
Personally i will never do deadlift again as it caused me a back injury and that scared the hell out of me. In fact many people n trainers i interact with advise not to do deadlifts as slightest of slip in form can cause a major injury.
Harry, the gym that I go to has two trainers who have no idea of what a deadlift is. They keep asking why I do it, and when I say posterior chain they point to the leg extension machine. Trainers in gyms rarely have ever helped me with anything useful.
I would suggest you restart deadlifts -- start low on an empty bar and keep increasing weight keeping the form. The horror and the risk is the thrill
I dont know, may be someday, if I injure myself badly I might stop it too. I had a couple of spasms and mid back pulls, but one week rest got me back up at the weights.
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Old 26th February 2011, 01:45   #2758
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After a lot of time people are really talking about exercises. when i last glanced through this thread i thought this was a thread wherein only supplements are discussed.

I am a beginner level and want to grow some muscle mass on my body to look fuller.I have been working close to 5 months now and have a big question with resting the same muscle group for more than a week.

My regime:
Mon : Chest and Triceps.
Wed ; Back and biceps
Fri : Shoulder and leg
Sat-Sun off:

Each day is pre-workout cardio 20 min followed by ab workout 10 min and stretching.

ON Whey protein is the only supplement I take after workout.

Pro's can help with Few questions:
1) resting the same muscle group for more than a week.
2) Protein to be taken on no workout day.
3) Somehow i find it hard to work on biceps; chest- shoulders i can reach till rep failure; biceps somehow i just can't: I cannot lift a barbell properly with desried set of reps.( pain near slightly above the elbow junction )
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Old 26th February 2011, 02:01   #2759
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@Fraz33r, this is from my own experience. In the last 4 months, I ve put on nearly 10 kg weight -- dint bother fat percentage, cos I was skinny.
If you are of the skinny kind, try something like the starting strength program by Mark Rippletoe. Google it out.
I'd say full body compound exercises 3 times a week -- works wonders.
Drink a lot of milk, get good sleep.
Do a lot of bench press, Overhead press, squats, deadlifts, pullups, dips and you should see change in 8 weeks.

No, you dont wanna rest even one whole week before hitting the muscle again. checkout some of the 5X5 methods.

You may want to wait for some expert advice on the program, but this is exactly what I talked about a couple of posts above. You have 1/6th of your regime set aside for 1/2 of your body (legs). I do not believe this program will give you good results at all. But lets hear from others too. I am not an expert.

Last edited by ashokrajagopal : 26th February 2011 at 02:03.
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Old 26th February 2011, 02:11   #2760
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashokrajagopal View Post
Harry, the gym that I go to has two trainers who have no idea of what a deadlift is. They keep asking why I do it, and when I say posterior chain they point to the leg extension machine. Trainers in gyms rarely have ever helped me with anything useful.
I would suggest you restart deadlifts -- start low on an empty bar and keep increasing weight keeping the form. The horror and the risk is the thrill
I dont know, may be someday, if I injure myself badly I might stop it too. I had a couple of spasms and mid back pulls, but one week rest got me back up at the weights.
Don't wait for it.

From a former bodybuilder's POV, you do NOT want to mess with your "back". The smallest change in alignment of the spine made me wish I could cut off pieces of my body. It hurts THAT BAD.

Aside from that, GOOD NEWS guys! After a bulging spinal disc belittling my bodybuilding progress, I'm gradually returning to my first love after a gap of over a year and a half! Even empty barbells feel spectacular, held over that preacher bench!

I dunno if its the adrenalin or the love for Iron, my mind kept saying "muah, muah" instead of counting reps :P

Harry10, after jumping through all the hoops to fix my back, what I found worked best was a combination of a few things:
  • Muscle Relaxants and Pain killers in stage 1
    Heat therapy in stage 2
    Yoga as stage 3
    limited hyper extension as the final nail in the pain's coffin as stage 4

I've yet to reach the last stage. And I still can't figure out what I did to whack my back out of shape.

Don't blame the deadlifts guys, if you're going too heavy, you're going to know on the spot. You won't be able to lift!


(Oh, and just to fire up some discussion, here's a fast fact: I'm considering winstrol to supplement the recovery process. Happy lifting!)
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