[skanchan95]

COMMISSIONING CEREMONY OF INAS 316

INAS 316, the Navy's second P-8I squadron has been commissioned into the Indian Navy at INS Hansa, Goa today.

Adm R Hari Kumar, the Chief of the Naval Staff was the Chief Guest for the event.

INAS 316 has been christened 'Condors' and operate four P-8Is from the last batch (IN328-331)





Note the "DAB" tail code(Dabolim) on the P-8. INAS 312 P-8s have ARK tail code (Arakkonam)

[dragracer567]

So, following the testing of the Rafale at the Indian Navy's facility in INS Hansa, Goa, the Navy will test the F/A-18 Super Hornet Block III this month for its ability to take off from a ski-jump. A couple of months back, the Rafale did a similar test while the F/A-18 was already tested in the US though I guess the Navy wanted to test in conditions controlled by them as well.

An interesting factor pointed out in some defense tabloids/forums is that, while the Rafale took off with one Exocet missile, the F/A-18 is expected to be showcased to take off with two Harpoon missiles (though not sure about the remaining weapons compliment, fuel remaining etc. to actually figure out the maximum take off weight at a ski-jump).

The numbers haven't been decided yet it seems - anywhere between 26-36 and given that this is a government to government deal, should conclude faster as well. As mentioned earlier, both jets have their advantages - the Rafale is already operated by the Air Force and will benefit from a shared infrastructure while the F/A-18 will fit through the INS Vikrant's elevator without modifications according to Boeing and might even fit on the INS Vikramaditya with relevant tests for the same to be conducted on May 21 on a mockup of the Vikramaditya's deck and has a lower purchase & operating cost thanks to the economies of scale provided by the US Navy. In terms of commonality, amongst the Quad, the F/A-18 is operated by the US Navy and RAAF but the French are important partners in their own right for India as well.

The Hindustan Times article (link 1) claims that the Rafale M if bought will only be operated from shore-based facilities which seems highly unlikely given that it was tested on a ski-jump.

This space should get interesting given that the IAF's MRFA is getting nowhere.

Link 1

Link 2

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Originally Posted by dragracer567

So, following the testing of the Rafale at the Indian Navy's facility in INS Hansa, Goa, the Navy will test the F/A-18 Super Hornet Block III this month for its ability to take off from a ski-jump. A couple of months back, the Rafale did a similar test while the F/A-18 was already tested in the US though I guess the Navy wanted to test in conditions controlled by them as well.

Very curious to see what the findings will be at the conclusion of tests for both the jets, as are most in the defence space I'm sure.

..given that this is a government to government deal..

Wasn't aware this was the case. Here's hoping it helps in a quick conclusion once a decision is reached.

..while the F/A-18 will fit through the INS Vikrant's elevator without modifications according to Boeing and might even fit on the INS Vikramaditya with relevant tests for the same to be conducted on May 21 on a mockup of the Vikramaditya's deck..

Sensible to actually test the claim the jet fits on those petite elevators. On that note, guessing the need for modifications meant the French contingent are unable at this time to do the same? I wonder if at INS Hansa they have ground markers to mimic the deck layout (including elevator footprint crucially) and maybe at least that way you could test to some extent how tight the squeeze might be for the Rafale.

The Hindustan Times article (link 1) claims that the Rafale M if bought will only be operated from shore-based facilities which seems highly unlikely given that it was tested on a ski-jump.

This seems absurd. Surely not even in our oft confusing procurement landscape can someone sign off on as ostensible carrier aircraft only to use it from land based facilities? The IAF brass would be the first to spit the dummy I'd imagine (you might as well have additional IAF squadrons then right?).

On another note, I guess post the Ukraine War, given the looming uneasiness that comes with the potential for secondary sanctions, I wonder how much of a factor that plays in the prospects of the Super Hornet? Equally, given how robust and united the EU response has been, and mostly in lockstep with US policy, would France for eg start to attach conditions to any purchase? The latter seems unlikely given their track record (I can't off the top of my head seem to remember any major instances where they've implemented export controls on any sold platforms). On that note, how much would a major US deal be a sweetener to alleviate any threat of secondary sanctions from the US? All conjecture really but interest to hear others thoughts.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by ads11

Sensible to actually test the claim the jet fits on those petite elevators. On that note, guessing the need for modifications meant the French contingent are unable at this time to do the same? I wonder if at INS Hansa they have ground markers to mimic the deck layout (including elevator footprint crucially) and maybe at least that way you could test to some extent how tight the squeeze might be for the Rafale.

I think this test will be done by Boeing in the US, possibly to strengthen their case because IIRC, the Navy doesn't actually have a requirement for the new fighters to fit on the Vikramaditya. The article isn't entirely clear on this.

This seems absurd. Surely not even in our oft confusing procurement landscape can someone sign off on as ostensible carrier aircraft only to use it from land based facilities? The IAF brass would be the first to spit the dummy I'd imagine (you might as well have additional IAF squadrons then right?).

I am sure this statement was a mistake since that negates the whole point of testing the Rafale on a ski-jump or even purchasing the Rafale M variant whose entire purpose is to be carrier capable, better just get the Air Force variant (still doesn't make sense + turf war with the IAF).

On another note, I guess post the Ukraine War, given the looming uneasiness that comes with the potential for secondary sanctions, I wonder how much of a factor that plays in the prospects of the Super Hornet? Equally, given how robust and united the EU response has been, and mostly in lockstep with US policy, would France for eg start to attach conditions to any purchase? The latter seems unlikely given their track record (I can't off the top of my head seem to remember any major instances where they've implemented export controls on any sold platforms). On that note, how much would a major US deal be a sweetener to alleviate any threat of secondary sanctions from the US? All conjecture really but interest to hear others thoughts.

Hard to say at this point given that most of these discussions happen behind closed doors. From the US point of view atleast, there have high level deliberations on weaning India away from Russian weaponry by selling India high-end weapons (whether India actually wants this or not is another point, given the focus on strategic autonomy). Regarding the French, its pretty much unlikely, the French tend to be less judgemental (for the lack of a better word) when it comes to weapons sales.

[dragracer567]

So the Indian Navy's P8i aircraft again.

The navy has sent its P8i aircraft all the way to Australia for 'maritime operation' in coordination with Australia's own P8A aircraft. Now, this is not the first time that the Indian Navy has deployed the P8i abroad as it is frequently deployed to Oman, Seychelles, Mauritius (at the Indian Navy's 'totally not a military base' in Agaléga) but sending it all the way to Australia for an operation really shows the long legs that the P8 platform has given to the Indian Navy (really hope we get more). I should reiterate here that this is not a simulated military exercise like Malabar but rather a maritime military operation being conducted. I'm a little bit curious if they are hunting some Chinese submarine lurking near Australia's shores - good target practice. All this really reminds me of the cold war.

PS: Looks like the Aussies (of all countries) are coming along as a really nice ally, especially after the new FTA. Hope this doesn't change if their Labour Party which has historically been pro-Chinese comes to power.

PPS: Yes, I am a fanboy of the P8 platform, that's why I keep talking about it







Images courtesy: Royal Australian Air Force Twitter Handle

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Originally Posted by dragracer567

Looks like the Aussies (of all countries) are coming along as a really nice ally, especially after the new FTA. Hope this doesn't change if their Labour Party which has historically been pro-Chinese comes to power.

PPS: Yes, I am a fanboy of the P8 platform, that's why I keep talking about it

Always good to see regional partners involved in collaborative exercises, especially vastly useful ones like ASW exercises. This is just emblematic of the flourishing global P8 user community. With increased PLAN subsea activity, this community should and most likely will have more joint activity to share knowhow.

I've long pitched that India would do well to look at some of the interesting work being done under, particularly Australia's work along with the local Boeing unit to develop a LO loyal wingman to team with their Super Hornets. To recap: it's entirely an Australian project so unlikely to come with Congressional export controls of the type that direct US programmes do (big draw for India); it seeks to augment the capability of existing 4th gen fighters on a realistic budget (something India could benefit from); and crucially, if the Super Hornet were selected in an Indian tender, introduces a low cost way for India to introduce a force multiplier option to pair with what will undoubtedly end up being another small batch govt-to-govt acquisition of the Super Hornets (a la the IAF Rafale deal).

Anyway, though Labour in Australia are traditionally seen to be soft on China, and this is me going on an outsiders view, the recent revelations of Chinese electoral interference in Australia has vastly changed the political landscape. In fact isn't wider public sentiment now steeling against the strong words from Beijing? It's that sea change that was basically rubber stamped by the era defining AUKUS deal for nuclear boats (it placed Australia firmly in the US camp in terms of great power competition and removed any wiggle room for them wrt China). While economically Australia will still continue to have enormous trade ties with Beijing, I think the days of there being a blind eye from Canberra are long gone. I think there's room there for synergy with New Delhi. But again, this is just a cursory outsiders view based on the major news stories I've come across in the last 5 years. Might be different on the ground.

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Really intriguing proposal by General Atomics to make a STOL MQ-9 Reaper


Rendition of what the STOL MQ-9 Reaper would look like off a USMC America class carrier

TLDR:
General Atomics is proposing a wing conversion kit that should allow for a Reaper drone to operate not just off the big flat tops of the USN but also the America class carriers of the USMC.

It's a really intriguing proposal - if it works (and I'm thinking there'll need to be some hardening of components and corrosion resistance changes required, and biggest question is the landing), it opens up a wealth of capability for any carrier group.

Even with any weight related range penalties, these things would have endurances a magnitude longer than any rotary wing or fixed wing manned platform off a carrier. Endurance with no load other than fuel is up to 35 hours so just imagine, even at 60% you're looking at staggering time on station for a carrier asset.

Say it was used just for ISR, that alone is a great asset - instead of a manned P-8 having to sortie out from a land base you could have one of these STOL Reapers do the same thing forward deployed at sea. Sling podded AESA radar and you increase your battlefield visibility, object detection, or you could have it as a communications node to relay information to the rest of the fleet. Could even mount EW pods on it. And that's not even counting some of the more exotic suggestions for mounting stand off weapons on it or using it for the ASW role.

That both the RN and RAN have enquired about such a capability of their own flat tops suggests there's interest from export customers with ski jump equipped carriers. Even more interestingly it looks like the now rather famous Bayraktar drones are being updated for a STOL variant to be used by the Turks off their own flat top.


Rendition of the Bayraktar TB3 in use on the Turkish Navy's upcoming Anadolu class carrier

Clearly there's merit to this idea. I know India explored the possibility of HALE drones before to use in the IOR. Maybe this concept is the one to go for, in that it offers a lot of upside for the money and vastly enhances the capabilities of the embarked carrier air wing. I do still have doubts given the huge wingspans of the Reaper (navalised versions tend to have larger wings if anything) and how they'd fit on narrow decks. Not to mention how they'd fit on the extremely tight elevators despite the folding wings. Also I'm a bit worried about landing, not just the landing gear but the pusher prop catching on the arrester cables. I'm keen to see it put into action with live demos.

[V.Narayan]

IN air station at North Agalega an island in the South-West Indian Ocean

https://swarajyamag.com/defence/indi...-p-8i-aircraft

North Agalega is a Mauritius administered island in the South-West part of the Indian Ocean at 10 degrees South/56 degrees East and about 1000 kms north west of Mauritius. The island lies ~3200 kms south west of Cochin. This is a coral island about ~13 kms in length and 1.5 kms in width. The IN is operating/plans to operate P-8I's from the island's 10,000 foot paved runway. I'm glad we are spreading our wings literally and figuratively. I wonder if this will have any bearing on the operating rights we have at Seychelles in the North West part of the Indian ocean.

Our presence is weak at the Horn of Africa/Red Sea and the Gulf of Oman.

Photo source: Wikipedia

[dragracer567]

So, as discussed earlier in this thread, two F/A-18 Super Hornets have arrived at INS Hansa in Goa for testing on the Indian Navy's shore-based ski-jump. This is hot on the heels of the Dassault Rafale which was tested at the facility earlier this year at the same facility while the F/A-18 themselves were tested at a ski-jump facility in the US - primarily as a showcase to the Indian Navy. These super hornets are apparently on lease from the US Navy and have undergone 'mechanical and software changes for the demonstration'.

IMHO Boeing has a serious chance here if only for the fact that the F/A-18s actually fit on the elevators but you never know with Indian defense procurement, I wouldn't be surprised if this whole thing ends up getting scrapped like some other defense programs!

Just a side note on the Quad, it seems that the US, Japan, Australia and India plan to have in place a system for tracking illegal fishing by Chinese fishing boats in the Indo-Pacific using satellite tracking and surveillance centers. This is significant because most of the illegal shipping globally is done by Chinese vessels (if I'm not mistaken) and a lot of these vessels function as arms of the PLA for creating new facts on the ground. This capability was most recently used by China to intimidate the Philippines, so it is commendable that the Quad is looking at creating a robust system to combat this. This also goes to show the flexibility of the Quad because it is impossible to conceive NATO doing a similar exercise on the essence of being a more overt military alliance. I was initially skeptical of the Quad's ability to combat China without an overt military framework but that has actually become a boon as China's dominance is not only military but also economic and geopolitical, so the Quad is able to target China from all spheres rather than just military by being a less rigid group. Now, it is starting to make sense when the Indian MEA and diplomats were talking about the Quad being the answer to challenges of the 21st century (i.e China), not the 20th century.

[V.Narayan]

China is alarmed by the Quad. But its threats are driving the group closer together

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/05/23/c...mic/index.html

Capturing rocks in the South China Sea, massive stock depleting illegal fishing, threatening Taiwan with worrisome seriousness, scratching at India's borders, etc

The Quad is for now only a starting point and as dragracer567 states it needs to be a 21st century alignment for a 21st century China. The deliberations of the next two days should be most interesting and of significant consequence. Japan & most of all India need to balance the actions of the Quad with the geographical fact that the dragon sits on our border a factor not affecting Australia and USA. Berlin is closer to Beijing than Sydney is!

Meanwhile our western neighbour is getting eaten by the Taliban and its Pakistani counterpart the TTP. The flea infestation is so bad that even the Baluchistan freedom struggle is now being supported by factions of the Taliban. Even our newspapers have stopped reporting the goings on of the world's saddest state! And to think they think of us night and day and entire world view is dominated by us and their assumption that we have nothing better to do than undo partition.

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Originally Posted by dragracer567

These super hornets are apparently on lease from the US Navy and have undergone 'mechanical and software changes for the demonstration'.

Wonder what the mechanical changes must've been. As I've stated before, very curious to see the results of the two jets testing at Hansa.

Just a side note on the Quad, it seems that the US, Japan, Australia and India plan to have in place a system for tracking illegal fishing by Chinese fishing boats in the Indo-Pacific using satellite tracking and surveillance centers. This is significant because most of the illegal shipping globally is done by Chinese vessels (if I'm not mistaken) and a lot of these vessels function as arms of the PLA for creating new facts on the ground.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

The Quad is for now only a starting point and as dragracer567 states it needs to be a 21st century alignment for a 21st century China.

China has been rather devious in how they utilise these large fishing fleets of theirs as a naval proxy so to speak - coupled with their warship sized coast guard cutters, these 'fishing fleets' have quite a punch to them and they're not afraid to use it. Honestly their overreach is almost laughable. A few years ago Argentina (!!!) made an official complaint of Chinese fishing fleets encroaching on its EEZ! Just think about how far these big old fleets are going to prod and poke and see what they can get away with. It's like the old salami slicing tactic but waged in the marine domain.

Quad activity has indeed picked up. It's still hard to envision it becoming a NATO esque overtly military alliance just yet (especially in Quad-Plus, looking at you Japan and South Korea). But who knows, if China keeps being bolshy on the world stage it's only natural that countries in its orbit will align on the one factor causing them issues. The informal nature of the alliance as it stands also affords all members wiggle room I suppose in that without an established Quad secretariat, and with it a written military containment focus, China's wolf warrior diplomats won't be stirred into a frenzy as yet, though you can be sure its rankling them no end.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

IN air station at North Agalega an island in the South-West Indian Ocean

I find it particularly amusing the establishment of the air station in Mauritius by the IN. There's a certain irony to adapting and using China's playbook in the SCS in the IOR to India's own purposes (of course without the exorbitant cost of actually building artificial islands). Establishing basing in IOR countries is an excellent step but it has to be done delicately, in concert with diplomatic efforts & overtures with host countries - the last thing India needs is for these moves to be viewed in the same muscular expansionist lens as say Chinese 9 Dash Line shenanigans are.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by ads11

I find it particularly amusing the establishment of the air station in Mauritius by the IN. There's a certain irony to adapting and using China's playbook in the SCS in the IOR to India's own purposes (of course without the exorbitant cost of actually building artificial islands). Establishing basing in IOR countries is an excellent step but it has to be done delicately, in concert with diplomatic efforts & overtures with host countries - the last thing India needs is for these moves to be viewed in the same muscular expansionist lens as say Chinese 9 Dash Line shenanigans are.

Well, you've got a point here. While it is a step in the right direction in India, opening military bases in foreign countries is serious business, just that the Americans make it look so easy. Just ask the Chinese, their only foreign base in Djibouti was made possible because Djibouti is really dependent on these foreign bases. If anything, India has done what the Chinese couldn't - convince a country without a history of hosting foreign bases to host an Indian base. This is especially difficult in Mauritius with the history of Diego Garcia and the forced replacement of folks living there. There are similar fears in Agalega atleast according to the Al Jazeera documentary I had shared earlier, so as you point out, it is very important that India behaves like a responsible power here - not like the Chinese or the West. The good thing is, for the large part, India has been a responsible guardian for the smaller Indian ocean littoral states.

Also, apart from the Agalega base, the P8s frequently fly out of friendly countries in the Indian Ocean such as the Salalah in Oman and most likely Seychelles and Madagascar too. But instances of the P8s flying out of foreign countries in the Western Indian Ocean has been rarer probably because of the proximity of bases in Andaman and Nicobar islands though I've seen an image of a P8 at Ho Chi Minh City (formerly Saigon) in Vietnam.

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Originally Posted by dragracer567

Well, you've got a point here. While it is a step in the right direction in India, opening military bases in foreign countries is serious business, just that the Americans make it look so easy. Just ask the Chinese, their only foreign base in Djibouti was made possible because Djibouti is really dependent on these foreign bases... it is very important that India behaves like a responsible power here

Just going to leave some good videos to give a primer on the aforementioned Chinese base and US basing strategy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg6u1rwgbkY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0qt0hdCQtg

It looks easy for the US now but its all taken decades to establish the vast network that exists today. On a simplistic level, I think in the immediate aftermath of WW2, the US was best placed to capitalise on all the globally distributed infrastructure that was in place, much of it a consequence of the European and Pacific theatres of war. I know I keep harping on about this but they really understand the importance of logistics (Russia is rather ignominiously bringing to light just what can happen when logistical proficiency is absent).

Anyway, coming to India I think it's evident that under the Modi govt, India has its most muscular and shall we say assertive foreign posture to date. While India hasn't completely abandoned its institutionalised non-alignment principles (again the current Ukraine invasion fall out is an excellent case in point), the Modi administration has made far more overt moves than any prior administration. I guess what I'm trying to say is that given there are no legislative hindrances and the relative ideological stability in govt, there can be no excuses from the body politic, specifically the diplomatic corps to ensure a synergistic approach to implementing these long term foreign policy objectives/goals. It's a delicate line to tread given how big the power imbalance is between India and a lot of the littoral and bounding IOR states, but it's tantamount that Indian bases such as in Mauritius are pitched in terms of win-win, rather than forced upon these nations.

I think more than even having the bases, the fact that India can have replenishment access is a welcome sign for bilateral relations. Ultimately the bases have to exist within a forward defence framework for India with a corollary of being a net security guarantor for the host country - this is the crux of how it should come across rather than being viewed as Indian adventurism. This is where the work of Indian overseas missions and the IFS corps will have to come good.

(Reading it all back this has to be about the most I've sounded like a think tank policy wonk ever - apologies folks. Going to submit this as my portfolio to RUSI).

[fhdowntheline]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

So, as discussed earlier in this thread, two F/A-18 Super Hornets have arrived at INS Hansa in Goa for testing on the Indian Navy's shore-based ski-jump.

IMHO Boeing has a serious chance here if only for the fact that the F/A-18s actually fit on the elevators but you never know with Indian defense procurement, I wouldn't be surprised if this whole thing ends up getting scrapped like some other defense programs!
century.

The technical merits of the Super Hornets aside, there is a possibility of a give-and-take here which is usually the case, that IN gets a few squadrons of these planes, Boeing and its defence contractors keep their factories busy, and India can continue its perceived neutrality in other aspects of foreign policy. The IAF gets additional Rafales (always welcome) so as not to upset France.

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The defence twittersphere has been agog today because it looks like the PLAN finally launched their Type 003 carrier, and christened it too (the Fujian).


Just to give you an example of how excited China military watchers are at this obviously major occasion.

Credit where credit is due, this is a remarkable achievement by PLAN shipbuilding, given that it's a major new CATOBAR design (allegedly incorporating EMALS cats instead of steam ones), and coming so soon after they'd completed their Type 002 carrier Shandong. Just as the imminent launch of the INS Vikrant will be a source of pride, I'm sure this is a big day for the Chinese.

Obviously it's some years off service yet but if all the niggles on this ship can be worked out and its beefed up carrier wing as well, then the PLAN will have a full fat flat top capability unlike the semi-skim of say a STOBAR air wing (being able to field a carrier borne AWACs for eg is a massive force multiplier). What's a concern is that given their remarkable shipbuilding pace, and the fact they skipped a generation of cat design to go straight to EMALs, one wonders if their follow on carrier is already drawn up as a nuclear powered ship, a proper (near) pound for pound analogue to the US supercarriers.

Something I'm curious about is power generation on board. Given the conventional power, the fact that new island clearly has the smooth faceting that indicates AESA radar arrays and more importantly the 3 EMALs catapults, you're looking at a pretty hefty energy bill. I know for eg the QE class has a massive amount of electrical overhead built in from the start - the Type 003 must be the same. It's really impressive how small that island is given they have to run the chimneys through the thing!

Another story I found of interest (and promptly forgot to post about) was this:
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...drones-onboard

I find it intriguing and I'd like to hope IN personnel are watching these PLAN drone tests on the Liaoning and Shandong with interest. Should they prove effective, it might be a relatively low cost capability that the IN would be well to borrow. Obviously drones are in vogue now and everyone is looking at various ways to integrate them onto their flat top vessels to provide new capability to ship borne air wings (see the Turks planning to have Bayraktars off their upcoming LHD).