[V.Narayan]

INS Vikrant delivered to the Indian Navy on 30th July 2022

https://theprint.in/defence/indian-n...china/1058942/

Indian designed, Indian built INS Vikrant, a 30-aircraft carrying, ~44,000 tonne aircraft carrier has been delivered to the Indian Navy as a run up to its formal commissioning around mid-August timed with India's 75th anniversary of independence. More will be written on this mighty ship closer to the date of commissioning.

In India's mixed history of ship design and construction this is a seminal event and a historical landmark. I write mixed history - more on that in the post celebrating her commissioning.

[ellip5i5]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

INS Vikrant delivered to the Indian Navy on 30th July 2022

I had caught a distant glimpse of the INS Vikrant while i was crossing into Fort Kochi in April. While it seemed far from complete then, the shipyard seems to have really turned things around.

[dragracer567]

On the MQ-9 Predator B procurement, it seems that India is actually going forward with that purchase despite earlier reports of this deal being put on the backburner. For the uninitiated, India is currently negotiating a $3 billion deal with the US to purchase 30 armed Predator B drones from the US - 10 each for the Army, Navy and Air Force with the versions for each force apparently being modified to suit their individual requirements.

Meanwhile, the Indian Navy is already operating two Seaguardian drones - unarmed maritime surveillance version of the MQ-9 Predator B which was procured from the US on lease in November 2020 initially for a period of 1 year (possibly using emergency financial powers provided after the Galwan clash). Interestingly, the drones were apparently delivered within 37 days of the Indian Navy initiating the lease process and the drone had started operations on the 38th day (perhaps these were US Navy surplus?). The contract has subsequently been extended and the Navy is still flying the Seaguardians. Dr. Vivek Lall - the chief executive for the General Atomics Global Corporation reportedly said that "close to 3,000 hours have been flown in support of the Indian Navy's maritime and land border patrol objectives, covering over 14 million square miles of operating area". Interesting note on the 'land border', so chances are that the Navy flew these drones near the LAC as well.

[skanchan95]

New mission computer for Indian Navy MiG-29K under trial

by Akhil Kadidal Aug 30, 2022, 14:35 PM

The Indian Navy is test-flying a new mission computer for its Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-29K/KUB carrier-borne fighter aircraft.

HAL is testing a new mission computer for the Indian Navy's MiG-29K carrier-borne fighter aircraft. The new system has been designed to give the navy the ability to integrate a wide range of domestic and international air-launched weapons with the MiG-29K. (US Navy)

The Indian Navy is test-flying a new mission computer for its Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-29K/KUB carrier-borne fighter aircraft.

The mission computer has been developed by the state-owned defence company, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). The new system is intended to give the navy the flexibility to integrate domestically developed and western-origin, air-launched weapons with the Soviet-era MiG-29K, HAL told Janes .

An industry source familiar with the project told Janes that the programme was launched in January 2021 after Russia declined to upgrade the mission computer or provide the source code to HAL.

The former Chairman and Managing Director of HAL, R Madhavan, said in a statement that the MiG-29K/KUB is limited to carrying Russian-origin weapons on air-to-air and air-to-surface missions.

“The aircraft cannot be operated with non-Russian-origin weapons without extensive modifications,” Madhavan said. “Integration of indigenous weapons or western-origin weapons with the MiG-29 is challenging because we do not have any design data or documentation on the architecture of the system.”

HAL told Janes that the Indian Navy assesses that the MiG-29K's inability to mount domestic weaponry is a “serious limitation”.

Janes has learnt that the flight computer has been in trials with the navy since June 2022. “The trials are currently ongoing. The system is being tested along various parameters,” HAL said.

“We estimate that the trials may take between six to eight months to be concluded,” an industry source added.

New mission computer for Indian Navy MiG-29K under trial

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

An industry source familiar with the project told Janes that the programme was launched in January 2021 after Russia declined to upgrade the mission computer or provide the source code to HAL.

Strange, isn't Russia generally the country that's more open towards ToT? Perhaps even more than the French?

IIRC the only reason that the Mig-29k program survived was because India bankrolled the stalled development of the project, so strange that the original contract didn't contain these concessions.

Also, its strange because the two aircraft in the Air Force's fleet that will get the first batch of indigenous missiles like the Astra are the Mig-29 UPG and the Su-30 MKI, so why did the Navy go for a dissimilar contract? The Russian aircraft in the Air Force's fleet tend to be the most customizable.

A question to the learned folk here - I am aware that the Air Force's Mig-29 is a formidable aircraft that served us well but did the Navy make a mistake going for the Mig-29K?

[ads11]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

New mission computer for Indian Navy MiG-29K under trial

Odd that the Russians don't appear to have made an effort to come to a compromise solution (based on my reading, I get they'd be reticent to share source code, but given India is about the only real MiG-29 customer they have of note, why no leeway in fixing a customer issue). Given the domestic solution is in testing now, the Russians put their foot down far in advance of the current war (like you'd understand if they ignored any request now given the issues related to/caused by the war). In any case, glad someone took prompt action to get a home brew mission computer green flagged, no better way than to just bring integral systems in house, especially if you need, like the IAF does, to incorporate a veritable smorgasbord of kit, each of varying provenance. It's especially frustrating when domestic ordinance where available isn't able to be paired with the MiG-29. Hopefully the testing of this mission computer goes smoothly and it can be rolled out quick sharp.

On that note, has anything been done to improve the dismal availability rates of the MiG-29? Given the fact we've tied ourselves to pocket carrier fighters with our pocket sized elevators on the Vikrant, surely it's worth looking at home grown fixes for improving the availability rate, especially if there are sub systems that are within the realms of feasibility of having a stab at doing ourselves. Or is there an institutional apathy in the IN towards the MiG-29 given the hope for the TEDBF tender will largely obviate any need to fix it, basically cut our losses with the Russian jet for the medium and long term?

PS: Every clip I see of the Vikrant, I can't but shake my head in disbelief at the fact someone greenlit those clearly too small elevators, handicapping an otherwise fine ship. I can only think that whoever drew up those elevators must be the same sort of person who draws up the (too tight) parking slot sizes for multistorey apartments.. Poor IN handling crew are going to have a task on their hands every time they squeeze a jet on them in fair conditions, let alone rough sea states.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

Strange, isn't Russia generally the country that's more open towards ToT? Perhaps even more than the French?

IIRC the only reason that the Mig-29k program survived was because India bankrolled the stalled development of the project, so strange that the original contract didn't contain these concessions.

Russian, as opposed to Soviet openness and conduct of ToT and software sharing is limited. Also there is no uniformity. You could have a good deal with bureau X and a lousy one 30 days later with bureau Y. Willingness to actually assist in supporting at the A.S.S. level is systemically very poor. We should not mix up the old Soviets with the new Russians a mistake I see several, who have never dealt with them, make out of nostalgia. Being a public forum I won't write more on this except to say that at least the French give what they sign up for. If they don't intend to give they don't sign up for it.

The MiG-29K was an integral part of the Gorshkov deal. No MiG-29K buyee no carrier I givee.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by ads11

PS: Every clip I see of the Vikrant, I can't but shake my head in disbelief at the fact someone greenlit those clearly too small elevators, handicapping an otherwise fine ship. Poor IN handling crew are going to have a task on their hands every time they squeeze a jet on them in fair conditions, let alone rough sea states.

My thoughts exactly when I saw the video of the Mig-29K on the Vikrant's elevator. I am guessing that the requirements were drafted in the early 2000s when it was assumed that further purchases of the Mig-29K would be made when the Vikrant enters service given that India literally bankrolled its development. Then the plan changed to purchase 57 American/French aircraft from foreign OEMs and then to the current plan to purchase just 26 aircraft and fill the remaining requirement using indigenous TEDBFs, so that's two significant change of plans during the design and construction phase of the Vikrant. If we give the designers the benefit of the doubt, it was probably too late to make the changes by the time the decision to purchase Western aircraft was made. If we were not to give the designers any benefit of the doubt - they just ignored the developments and stuck to the original requirement as per contractual obligations.

On the bright side for the French, it would require a lot of effort to maneuver a F/A-18 even with folded wings onto the elevator with barely a couple of centimeters to play with, so Dassault's proposal to remove the winglets might not be the worst option.

I can only think that whoever drew up those elevators must be the same sort of person who draws up the (too tight) parking slot sizes for multistorey apartments.

Funny you should mention this today, a friend and I just got stuck in the tightest multistory office car park I've seen in my entire life that would be too small for a Fiat 500 let alone the company Land Cruiser we were in - somehow getting out was 50 times harder than getting in and we were pretty much wedged in. At one point, we were ready to concede that the car is part of the building now

Can't imagine doing the same out in the sea in rough weather where you can't even drive but have to use a tow-truck. Naval aviation is really something!

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

A question to the learned folk here - I am aware that the Air Force's Mig-29 is a formidable aircraft that served us well but did the Navy make a mistake going for the Mig-29K?

Well, it was meant to be a package deal (Ship + Russian Carrier based fighter). Besides that, at that point in time in early 2000s, there really wouldn't have been any other option left for a Carrier based fighter except the Russian ones. No way the Americans would have offered their F/A-18s, the Rafale M was too "raw" in the early 2000s.

As a part of the Indian evaluations for a carrier based fighter, the Su-27KUB/Su-33UB was evaluated & flown by Indian Navy pilots in 1999. The Naval Flanker was judged to be too large to operate in sizeable numbers from the Admiral Gorshkov/INS Vikramaditya. The MiG-29K/UKB was therefore the only choice left. Later, after India funded the development of the MiG-29K/KUB, the Russian Navy Navy too ordered MiG-29K/KUBs to replace/supplement the Su-33.

[V.Narayan]

INS Vikrant Commissions today

India's first indigenously designed and built aircraft carrier INS Vikrant, named after our first aircraft carrier is to be commissioned today. This is a proud day for the Indian Navy and naval ship designers and builders in the country. A special place of honour here goes to the Indian Navy's Corp of Constructors who are a specialist branch that design the warships the Navy uses. One huge, huge reason for the Navy's successes in indigenization versus the other two Arms is this fact that the designers are in uniform and in-house. So the users, the maintainers and the designers are all in the same organization ie the Indian Navy. It bridges communication gaps, reduces administrative fiefdoms and ensures there is an overarching leadership.

On the flip side INS Vikrant has taken ~14 years from keel laying to commissioning. This could have been caused by technical challenges, of which there were many I'm sure, shortfalls in design that needed rectification, all the problems of learn as you build and I dare say at some of the earlier stages budgetary issues after the global financial crises of 2008-2009. But now the day has dawned and the mighty ship joins the fleet. I sure hope there will be two more to follow.

For those new to this thread the box below spells out the basic data on the vessel. Photos below from the net. All photo credits to the Indian Navy. Last photo of the old INS Vikrant from its hey day in the 1971 war {this photo has featured earlier on this thread}.

Those regular readers of this thread could you access the fresh photos from the Navy's Twitter feed and post them here please {I'm not a social media person}. Thanks in advance.

As an aside when the first INS Vikrant sailed into Mumbai harbour sometime in 1961 or 1962 my parents with me an infant in arms went to Apollo Bunder to watch the ship come in. My mother tells me they sailed in a small naval boat alongside the ship at a safe distance as she came in. Happy to be around on the commissioning date of the second ship to bear this proud name.

My best wishes and salute to all brave men and women who shall serve on this mighty ship over the coming 3 to 4 decades

Jai Hind.

Full load: 45,000 tonnes
Powerplant : LM2500 x 4 gas turbines totalling to ~110,000 shp
Length: 262 metres
Beam at flight deck: 62 metres
Height from keel to top of the mast: 59 metres
Flight deck size: ~10,000 sq metres
Speed: 28 to 30 knots {52 to 56 kmph}*
Range: ~8000 nautical miles {~15,000 kms} at cruising speeds {Official figure. In practise likely to be a lot more}
*top sustained speeds vary with displacement, sea states and {in case of a gas turbine power plant} by ambient air temperature

Defensive Armament:
Barak 8 x 32 vertical launching Surface to Air missiles with a range of ~100kms
Oto Breda 76mm dual purpose guns x 4
30mm 6-barrel gatling guns - Close in weapon System for last ditch anti-missile defence

Offensive armament ie the Aviation complement:
30 to 35 aircraft - mix of fixed and rotary wing - currently a mix of MiG-29K multi-role combat aircraft, Kamov Ka-31 AEW, Kamov Ka-27 ASW and Sikorsky Mh-60R ASW helicopters. The mix will vary depending on the mission.

For historical record here are the 4 most important milestones in our long journey of shipbuilding.

[Shreyans_Jain]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

INS Vikrant Commissions today

Huge achievement for India, full credit to the Navy and its engineers. That being said, making a carrier is one thing. Furnishing it with aircraft is another.

30 fighter aircraft on the Vikrant, and another 30 on the Vikramaditya. We currently have only the MiG 29K as our aircraft carrier capable fighter. Do we even have 60 MiG 29K aircraft? I believe we have only about 40 odd, and they suffer from the lowest availability rates of all the fighters that India operates.

The naval variant of the Tejas and the TEDBFA that we are scouting for can’t come soon enough. Till then, our carriers might just remain paper tigers.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain

Huge achievement for India, full credit to the Navy and its engineers. That being said, making a carrier is one thing. Furnishing it with aircraft is another.

30 fighter aircraft on the Vikrant, and another 30 on the Vikramaditya. We currently have only the MiG 29K as our aircraft carrier capable fighter. Do we even have 60 MiG 29K aircraft? I believe we have only about 40 odd, and they suffer from the lowest availability rates of all the fighters that India operates.

The naval variant of the Tejas and the TEDBFA that we are scouting for can’t come soon enough. Till then, our carriers might just remain paper tigers.

You are right that the aircraft are to come. Be it MiG-29K or Rafale or F-18 or Tejas. Other than the US Navy no other Navy has the budgetary clout to fund the carrier and the aircraft simultaneously. The aircraft wing can cost as much if not more than the ship. The current aircraft complement of fixed wing and rotary wing can form two undersized wings and get the show on the road. Deep national strategic capability is built in steps. Sometimes it is one step forward and two back and at other times it is two forward and one back. I prefer to count the bottle half full. This ship will serve, probably for about 40 years. If for the first two of those 40 she sails with an undersized wing so be it. In any case a year more will be needed to integrate the air wing with the ship and establish all the working protocols.

Given the present administrations focus on defence matters and will to get things done I would not be surprised if the Rafale/F-18 deal Govt-to-Govt is closed very soon.

[FURY_44]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

INS Vikrant Commissions today

India's first indigenously designed and built aircraft carrier INS Vikrant, named after our first aircraft carrier is to be commissioned today.

Found this docked at Kochi harbor, during my recent trip on Independence Day weekend. I was aghast by huge this ship was to see in person, I was at least a km away from it, still, it was humungous.

Thanks to BHPian dust-n-bones for pointing this one out on my thread.

[Shreyans_Jain]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Other than the US Navy no other Navy has the budgetary clout to fund the carrier and the aircraft simultaneously. The aircraft wing can cost as much if not more than the ship.

Interesting thought. How is the PLAN placed with regards to this? China’s naval buildup is among the largest in history. It’s new aircraft carriers rival the US in tonnage as well as aircraft handling capacities. They are making carrier after carrier, and are openly and fairly successfully benchmarking against the US Navy. What kind of carrier capable aircrafts does China operate? How much numbers do they have?

[dust-n-bones]

Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain

Interesting thought. How is the PLAN placed with regards to this? China’s naval buildup is among the largest in history. It’s new aircraft carriers rival the US in tonnage as well as aircraft handling capacities. They are making carrier after carrier, and are openly and fairly successfully benchmarking against the US Navy. What kind of carrier capable aircrafts does China operate? How much numbers do they have?

China has 3-4 carriers, all much beyond the size of Vikrant (which is ~40k tons). Chinese clearly have US Navy in their sights. They want to deploy nuclear powered carriers, which of course will give them unlimited range.

Sort of makes sense - China would want to project naval power in international waters to police shipping lanes, blockade a non-paying 'belt and road' partner , amongst other things a wannabe superpower would fancy.


A carrier on its own is no good. You have to create a battle group for it to be operational, equip it with offensive and defensive missiles, aircrafts, AWACs, submarines. And then sensors and radars.

At some point, you have to ask if all this is worth it for a country like India whose men-in-arms are woefully equipped - compared to super-power class countries.
Who's military was caught napping in the 1999 Kargil war because there were no foot patrols in the mountains during the winters. 20 years later, the same story repeats in Galwan - we have still not deployed robotic surveillance and drone platforms where it counts. But we still want to play with big boys on the high seas.

Also, think of how the nature of war is changing. in 2020, Azerbaijan deployed drones, robots and cyberwarfare against Armenia to force a swift outcome.

Talk of mis-placed priorities, I would say. We already have an aircraft carrier (Vikramaditya) which should be plenty for the foreseeable needs.