[sierrabravo98]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

Another Mig-29k crashed today. Thankfully, the pilots seem to have ejected and have been rescued.

The crash frequency of the Mig-29k seem to be quite high given that we only have 40-45 in our fleet and it was procured only a decade ago.

I guess the F/A-18/Rafale and the TEDBF can’t come soon enough!

The Mig 29K is inherently not suited to be a carrier borne aircraft. This has lead to all sorts of structural issues ( airframe cracks, entire control surfaces shearing off etc.) in 29Ks. What this means essentially is that we don't have a functioning CBG (Carrier Battle Group) right now.

I don't know what the Navy was thinking when they allowed the Russians to club the Vikramaditya purchase with the 29Ks. Processing the decision to design the aviation complex of the Vikrant around the Mig 29 is another facet which is beyond the capabilities of my brain. The chances of the Super Hornet seem to be a bit shaky considering the recent shenanigans of the Democrats. The Rafale supposedly does not fit into the lifts of any of our carriers without removing the wings. The TEDBF still does not have CCS approval and is 6-7 years away by the most optimistic estimates (I don't see if happening anytime before 10 years).

The coming 10 years are going to be very disheartening for Indian Naval Aviation. We will also see extreme degradation of Indian power projection capabilities in the IOR at a time when our cuddle neighbour up north is arming itself at a pace unprecedented after the conclusion of WW2.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by sierrabravo98

The Mig 29K is inherently not suited to be a carrier borne aircraft. This has lead to all sorts of structural issues ( airframe cracks, entire control surfaces shearing off etc.) in 29Ks. What this means essentially is that we don't have a functioning CBG (Carrier Battle Group) right now.

I don't know what the Navy was thinking when they allowed the Russians to club the Vikramaditya purchase with the 29Ks. Processing the decision to design the aviation complex of the Vikrant around the Mig 29 is another facet which is beyond the capabilities of my brain. The chances of the Super Hornet seem to be a bit shaky considering the recent shenanigans of the Democrats. The Rafale supposedly does not fit into the lifts of any of our carriers without removing the wings. The TEDBF still does not have CCS approval and is 6-7 years away by the most optimistic estimates (I don't see if happening anytime before 10 years).

The coming 10 years are going to be very disheartening for Indian Naval Aviation. We will also see extreme degradation of Indian power projection capabilities in the IOR at a time when our cuddle neighbour up north is arming itself at a pace unprecedented after the conclusion of WW2.

Ah yes, this is the despair that haunts every Indian defense nerd including myself . I have ranted about this on a couple of occasions as well though not in the context of the naval fighter.

However, I do think that we will end up buying the F/A-18 or the Rafale though it would be 2024-25 before the order go out based on how slow Indian procurement works mainly because the issues you point out aren't dealbreakers. With US relations, we've seen worse in the past 24 months but this isn't 1971 anymore and the fact of the matter is, India is one of the few countries that enjoys overwhelming bipartisan support (something that only other western countries enjoy) except for some radicals on both sides. Infact, India is involved with the US in far more sensitive projects like the MQ-9 procurement and making a version of the Sentinel for India which will actually be a joint US-India effort (this was confirmed by the IAF chief this week). The latter is state-of-the-art SIGINT tech, so if we are collaborating with the Americans on that, F/A-18s won't be a problem. As for the Rafale problem, well, I guess the Navy will make it work if we procure those. We Indians are good in jugaad afterall!

I do agree with you though. We won't know if any of these platforms are coming till the contract is signed (or the first prototype flies for indigenous equipment) which in India can take 2 decades for all we know. It is indeed disheartening that we are losing crucial capabilities due to bureaucracy (Naval fighters one among them). It's really hard to understand what exactly is the problem - is it the sarkari babus? is the current administration not understanding the seriousness of the Northern neighbour problem (unlikely given how proactively Indian diplomacy is responding)? Is the power too concentrated at the top? Or is it too distributed?

[V.Narayan]

France's Naval Group, the country's premier ship design & building firm, released an artists rendition of France's next generation nuclear powered 75,000 tonne aircraft carrier. Construction to start in 2025.

[saikarthik]

On the current scenario of selecting the fighter jets for the aviation arm of the Indian Navy for the INS Vikrant and INS Vikramaditya, there was an interesting question related to the arrestor cables on one of the YouTube channel. They claim that if F/A 18 Super Hornet is selected, as it is approximately 4.5 tonnes heavier than the Mig 29Ks for which the current the arrester cable and the assembly was designed for and might need frequent maintenance/replacement. This could put some strain on the operability on sustained operations/landings. Am not sure if this claim is as problematic as they claim, but still a point surely would have been discussed and checked before making any decisions.

[ads11]

Originally Posted by saikarthik

On the current scenario of selecting the fighter jets for the aviation arm of the Indian Navy for the INS Vikrant and INS Vikramaditya, there was an interesting question related to the arrestor cables on one of the YouTube channel. They claim that if F/A 18 Super Hornet is selected, as it is approximately 4.5 tonnes heavier than the Mig 29Ks for which the current the arrester cable and the assembly was designed for and might need frequent maintenance/replacement. This could put some strain on the operability on sustained operations/landings. Am not sure if this claim is as problematic as they claim, but still a point surely would have been discussed and checked before making any decisions.

Oh, could be an interesting spot this. Seeing as the elevators seem to have been designed with ostensibly only enough leeway for the Mig-29K, it wouldn't surprise me (disheartening though it would be) that the arrestor cables are only rated for not much more than the Mig-29K.

I can understand arrestor cables on STOBAR carriers being rated for lower max weights, considering they won't have to contend with capturing heavier aircraft of the AEW class for eg. That being said, I'd like to think that when the Vikrant was built, operational headroom was factored into all the calculations and built in too for future upgrades. You'd imagine that the rating for the cable assembly would potentially account for some extra weight, especially given the long life span projected for the vessel.

What this does tell me though is that as usual, it's not going to be a cut and dry comparison between the Rafale and Super Hornet for this tender (which means it'll just take even longer). Incidentally, how much heavier is the Rafale compared to the Mig-29K (or lighter even)?

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by ads11

What this does tell me though is that as usual, it's not going to be a cut and dry comparison between the Rafale and Super Hornet for this tender (which means it'll just take even longer). Incidentally, how much heavier is the Rafale compared to the Mig-29K (or lighter even)?

I know its not the most reliable source but according to wikipedia -

Gross weights:

Mig-29k - 18,950 kg
F/A-18 super hornet - 21,320 kg
Rafale M - 15,000 kg

Not sure if these numbers are an apples to apples comparison. The empty weight of the Mig-20k and Rafale M are apparently almost the same.

[ads11]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

I know its not the most reliable source but according to wikipedia -

Gross weights:

Mig-29k - 18,950 kg
F/A-18 super hornet - 21,320 kg
Rafale M - 15,000 kg

Not sure if these numbers are an apples to apples comparison. The empty weight of the Mig-20k and Rafale M are apparently almost the same.

Interesting. I guess the Rafale M being in the same weight ballpark as the Mig is a big plus on its part in terms of compatibility. If only the damn elevators were large enough to accommodate it.

Just feels like whatever ends up being selected would be compromised.
Rafale would have to pull off some magic to slim down its wingspan to fit on the elevators.
The Super Hornet runs the risk of pushing the arrestor system to its design limits and causing more wear and tear.

[V.Narayan]

Newspapers report that the integration of the MiG-29K's with INS Vikrant is to be completed by June 2023.

[Dieseltuned]

Any guesses how many mig 29 frames do we have in active service ? Will they suffice to both our carriers till another jet is identified and put into service !

[dragracer567]

After going back and forth, it seems rather surprisingly that the Rafale is the front-runner for the naval fighter acquisition program. Surprising because of the rather strong and upfront advertising from Boeing but it turns out that the Rafale has met all the parameters set by the Navy and hence is the front-runner for the contract.

Regarding the elevator question, it seems that both the F/A-18 (after folded wings) as well as the Rafale will fit only in an angle, this is contrary to earlier reports that the F/A-18 will fit. Infact, Boeing actually claimed on their India website that the F/A-18 will fit on both the Vikrant and the Vikramaditya - probably to mislead public opinion.

Another nugget seems to be that the Defense ministry is looking at additional orders for the Air Force to bring the overall cost down (and avoid an Apache like situation with the Army/Air Force). Some claims on Twitter indicate upto 81 aircraft would be bought off the shelf. Considering 27 are for the Navy, remaining 54 would be for the Air Force which doesn't contradict earlier reports about the MRFA contract being broken down with later versions being locally assembled.

France is also apparently ready to supply Rafale Ms from their Navy initially so that we can start operating them faster, this is especially important since the naval chief has explicitly said that the Mig-29k is available only in limited numbers and Russian spare supplies were “also not very forthcoming”. So, the Navy really has a problem with fighers and the Rafale can't come soon enough.

[V.Narayan]

Has the Rafale been selected by the Indian Navy?

https://www.timesnownews.com/india/r...ticle-96109561
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india...527011363.html

This news article seems to indicate that the Rafale has been selected by the IN as its carrier borne fighter. 26 are expected to be on order. The decision seems to be a technical one. Any political give and take or economic deal making might still be there to play out. If both the Hornet and Rafale have to be placed at an angle to get through the deck edge lifts then Rafale is a more sensible option IMHO. the French are more reliable by far, we have commonality with the IAF and I hope the Rafale will be license assembled in India.

If indeed a decision & contract closure is close at hand then it would be a record for our bureaucracy.

File photos of Rafale M's landing on a carrier

[Gansan]

^^ I read an article the IN is soon sending an RFP for 6 more P8 Poseidons.

https://www.facebook.com/IndiasGrowi...5871996035361/

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by Gansan

^^ I read an article the IN is soon sending an RFP for 8 more P8 Poseidons.

6 more actually. This was long in the pipeline and the deal along with the pricing was already approved by the Americans before the deal was put on hold due to talks of inducting a maritime surveillance version of the C295 which would be made locally.

I guess the C295 for the Navy will eventually be made but the P8 is a different aircraft with a different mission - primarily ASW, so I guess we are going ahead with the plan to buy more. The Americans have to issue a new Letter of Offer and Acceptance since the previous one likely expired.

[Foxbat]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Has the Rafale been selected by the Indian Navy?

https://www.timesnownews.com/india/r...ticle-96109561
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india...527011363.html

This news article seems to indicate that the Rafale has been selected by the IN as its carrier borne fighter. 26 are expected to be on order. The decision seems to be a technical one. Any political give and take or economic deal making might still be there to play out. If both the Hornet and Rafale have to be placed at an angle to get through the deck edge lifts then Rafale is a more sensible option IMHO. the French are more reliable by far, we have commonality with the IAF and I hope the Rafale will be license assembled in India.

If indeed a decision & contract closure is close at hand then it would be a record for our bureaucracy.

File photos of Rafale M's landing on a carrier

I knew this was going to happen, thats why I built this Rafale M in Indian colours more than two years ago

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by Foxbat

I knew this was going to happen, thats why I built this Rafale M in Indian colours more than two years ago

Kudos to you, Foxbat. That is one beautiful model with detailing.