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Old 27th September 2019, 11:07   #16
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Default Re: Electric Cars...through the eyes of a diehard petrol-head

Great thread, very informative and answered a lot of questions I had in mind about EVs.

With the power, efficiency, convenience and the 'green' tag, EVs are future of automobiles!
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Old 27th September 2019, 11:27   #17
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Default Re: Electric Cars...through the eyes of a diehard petrol-head

Thanks for sharing! EVs have always impressed me and Tesla is currently at the top spot for my 'practical cars to own' list.

I have been following small startup called Tesloop, that has a Model S and Model X. The sedan has done about 346,000 miles and the SUV about 315,000 miles. They have listed all their expenses for these cars here. The totals are surprising.

This particular model S has an infinite mile / 8 year drivetrain warranty!! Blog post on Tesloop site. Not sure if its the same for the new models.
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Old 27th September 2019, 11:34   #18
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Default Re: Electric Cars...through the eyes of a diehard petrol-head

Brilliant thread GTO. Thank you for taking the leadership on this contentious subject, doing some serious homework, and laying it out for all of us. Having driven a hybrid for 2+ years I am battle ready for the EVs. Volvo XC40 EV is the one I have my eyes on. Fitted two 15 Amp sockets at my parking spots in the basement garage. The habit of re-charging and planning the route-range will soon become habits. The best comments in your comprehensive thread are -

Quote:
The jury is still out on that, simply because 75% of India's electricity is generated from polluting coal plants. That said, there is absolutely no doubt that EVs will lead to cleaner urban cities (last I checked, there were no coal plants in proper Bombay / Delhi / Bangalore etc.). I think of it as garbage = instead of having the trash (pollution) all around my house (or city), I'd rather relegate it to one corner of my house (or country) in a trash can.
We need a T-BHP sticker that says " I Drive Green".

Err. Ahhmm. <clearing throat>Sorry GTO but will we have to change our name to Team - KWH

Last edited by V.Narayan : 27th September 2019 at 11:38.
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Old 27th September 2019, 11:37   #19
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Default Re: Electric Cars...through the eyes of a diehard petrol-head

Great thread and very informative. Never thought i would move towards EVs willingly. I was infact of the opinion that i must buy and drive as many diesel cars as i can before the EV cars completely set in. Now, i think EVs seem quite practical.

Major concerns were around cost of buying, ownership and range which i think the current EVs will suit a common man like me.
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Old 27th September 2019, 11:44   #20
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Default Re: Electric Cars...through the eyes of a diehard petrol-head

Great article GTO

There are few people worried about battery recycling. The major reason for the Li-ion recycling industry not much making much progress till now is, there is not enough used EV batteries are available yet. But few companies are already working on the recycling. Here is one such solution by Finnish major Fotrum.
https://www.fortum.com/products-and-...cling-solution

At the same the the claim that there is no recycling being done of Li-ion batteries is not true. Almost all the stock available for recycling is already being done currently, mostly by China and South Korea. To know more about current recycling of Li-ion batteries (from phones and other electronic devices) and future of recycling industry with advent of EVs, check the below article:
https://www.greentechmedia.com/artic...rket#gs.6egknb

Another major important thing is, EV batteries still retain most of their capacity after their life in vehicles. In fact that is why all companies are able to guarantee minimum 70% of capacity after 1.6 lakh kms on batteries. After their usage in cars, same batteries can be used for home storage for the next 10-15 years. There are already companies providing storage solutions with old batteries from the old generations EVs like Leaf.
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Old 27th September 2019, 11:47   #21
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Default Re: Electric Cars...through the eyes of a diehard petrol-head

Excellent thread. Thank you for answering all the questions typically posed for EVs in such a simple manner with focus on real life practicality. With a wee bit of planning, I think EVs can be very practical. Bring it on!
I think the Power grid will need to be upgraded to make sure it is practical to have mass adoption of EVs. There is a phenomenon in the UK where there is a surge of electricity usage between TV commercials when everyone switches on their electric kettles, and the grid needed to factor in such demand for generation as well as distribution of electricity. If EVs have to replace ICE cars, the infrastructure will have to evolve accordingly.
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Old 27th September 2019, 12:10   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post

So, just how environment-friendly are EVs actually?

The jury is still out on that, simply because 75% of India's electricity is generated from polluting coal plants. That said, there is absolutely no doubt that EVs will lead to cleaner urban cities (last I checked, there were no coal plants in proper Bombay / Delhi / Bangalore etc.). I think of it as garbage = instead of having the trash (pollution) all around my house (or city), I'd rather relegate it to one corner of my house (or country) in a trash can.

EVs wear green plates which I think is a BRILLIANT move by the government
The % of India's electric from Coal is down to 56%. that's as of Aug 2019, and it will come down as more and more Wind/Solar and Hydro are installed.

The aspect of going electric is that the source and the storing mechanism can be changed without too much effort. One can install a small windmill or solar panels on top of their house to charge the car, while the same cannot be said for ICE vehicles.
I see few concerns about Lithium batteries as well, and the effort for mining the same and recycling it. Lithium, as of today, is the primary source of chemical in battery, but as battery research improves, it can be something different in few years. I remember using Ni-Mh rechargeable batteries for camera a decade ago, and now it's all Lithium based.
As for mining, the same holds true for Oil. Oil drilling happens in Arctic circle and in the ocean, and we have seen plenty of damage from them when it spills, and many accidents about pipeline as well.
Oil transport itself is polluting where as the same cannot be said for electricity transmission.

Lastly, we can always find something negative about any technology, but instead of focusing on that, it would be beneficial to focus on what positive it brings to the table and keep improving it.
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Old 27th September 2019, 12:46   #23
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Default Re: Electric Cars...through the eyes of a diehard petrol-head

Thanks, excellent thread as-usual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post

Thank this car for making EVs cool, sexy & relevant again. Tesla played its part in forcing the entire auto industry to take EVs seriously:
This is the most commendable thing about Tesla Motors, they literally forced all the automotive biggies to realign their strategies for the future. If not for Tesla, EVs might take 5~10 years more than what they are taking now to become mainstream, I would love to call Tesla as the major catalyst of EV revolution of the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Kids totally love the gizmos & games onboard:
https://www.Youtube.com/watch?v=sElX8cclBYs
That's quite cool, now on-wards kids at home will try to influence the car buying decision in favor Tesla just to get these gizmos/games, clever Tesla!

Tesla is even selling battery powered Model-S ride-on cars for kids, this will familiarize them with the brand and that might work in favor of Tesla as the kids grow up, clever again. In-fact many other companies are doing the same.

Addition: With the advent of EVs, cars are going to play more roles than they are doing now, not just for transportation. Just like how mobiles were meant just for communication before the smartphones took over and changed everything, they became cameras, play-stations, and much more.

Last edited by wheelguy : 27th September 2019 at 13:06. Reason: Additions
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Old 27th September 2019, 14:00   #24
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Default Re: Electric Cars...through the eyes of a diehard petrol-head

Thank you for this nice piece. Helps guide a structured thought on EVs.
When I bought my current ride 3 years back, thought my next car would be a hybrid. Now realizes that hybrid is probably much more complex, inefficient and difficult to maintain.

One thought lingers; while there is policy and promotional measures for EVs, are we quite equipped to handle the additional electric power requirement? Imagine, the hundreds of thousands of vehicles on Indian roads are EVs, do we have enough sustainable power generation capacity? More so now, when the world is moving away from nuclear power.
In my opinion, the growth of EV has soon to be supplemented by renewable energy. Fuel cell powered, solar powered etc. are potential options. Or, energy generation from wind, waves, solar etc.
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Old 27th September 2019, 14:39   #25
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Default Re: Electric Cars...through the eyes of a diehard petrol-head

Fantastic write up as usual, thanks GTO for putting this up in a detailed manner. This should clear many questions and false perceptions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
]
Further, just like smartphones & computers, EV builds will eventually become very customisable, even from the factory. You'll be able to pick different capacity motors, batteries, controllers, driving modes, single / dual / more motors, software add-ons etc. for the same model. Tesla is already doing a lot of this.

I also feel there will be "commoditization" of the crucial components, similar to how SSDs, RAM & CPUs are in computers.
Loved this part and honestly it's the only thing I find exciting about EVs so far. I remember quoting the exact comparison on a different thread earlier. I'm waiting for the manufacturers to provide such customisation from the factory with the regular ICE cars too. Why not give us everything before they fade out pretty soon. But, with the current market scenario, I am pretty sure that's a definite sour grape.

I will re-read this thread after 5-10 years and I guess my reaction is going to be like yeah this is already predicted by our beloved GTO
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Old 27th September 2019, 14:43   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
So, are they fun to drive?

Summary = Fast EVs can be as much fun in the city. But there is no contest on highways, mountain roads & race tracks.
Whoa! Since 99% of people drive 99% of the time within cities, I guess EVs are 99% there? Numbers are there to get the attention, but you get the drift . On pollution front, there is a reason why we get the electricity directly at home rather than using ICE driven diesel generators!

In such a scenario, I will only buy the EV for home and would rent an ICE car when I want to go for a highway drive.
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Old 27th September 2019, 14:57   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
The chargers are usually "locked" and no mischievous fellow can remove it from your car. However, pranksters could switch the button on the wall power socket off . Get a waterproof lockbox made for your charger.

EVs just aren't suited to Indian highways yet. Not only is the range a limitation, but the frequent power cuts in rural India are too. Leave aside rural India, even a modern city like Pune suffers frequent power cuts. Didn't stop me though
Thanks GTO for excellent post! We have a great solution for power cuts - install diesel generators in apartment complex and office space
I feel unless we have cleaner and reliable electricity production in India EV is really a dream for us.

How was your experience with Tesla's trip planer? I heard sometimes it predicts 20-30% extra than car can actually go with current charge?
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Old 27th September 2019, 14:59   #28
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Default Re: Electric Cars...through the eyes of a diehard petrol-head

A very objective & informative review of Electric cars. There's a lot of buzz around EV's. This review helps clear how they are to own & live with.

I find Teslas & Taycans to be really cool. If I were in my teens' I would have put up their posters instead of Lambos & Ferraris.

About EV's I have twin anxieties:

The quality of EV's made by Indian OEM's is pathetic. Even a Maruti with Toyota tech doesn't inspire much confidence in getting EV's right. The first-gen of EV car buyers are likely to suffer a frustrating ownership experience.

The second anxiety is recycling end of life batteries. Lithium is a toxic element. Our past experience suggests that not enough thought & planning will go into how to recycle/dispose of these batteries.

Let's hope along with charging infrastructure, investments are made in recycling/disposal of the waste.

Another thought that occurs is once EV's become prevalent, an entire ecosystem of Dealerships, Service Centres, Local Mechanics, Spare Parts outlets will become redundant. For many of us, these sources were informal sounding boards on car purchase, maintenance & ownership tips. If they wind up that will be sad.
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Old 27th September 2019, 15:45   #29
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Default Re: Electric Cars...through the eyes of a diehard petrol-head

EVs have most certainly caught the imagination of many people off late. They most certainly are poised to be the next big thing in the automotive arena.

That being said, they are still very far away from becoming the only car a family would own. EVs will mostly be part of a 2 or more car garage. The most immediate concerns are charging infrastructure and time taken to charge. Even assuming that somebody who owns an EV wholly and solely drives in the city, how many of our apartments and office parking lots have a plug point at each parking spot? Where would the people staying in apartments and working in large tech parks charge their cars?

On a longer term, Lithium, like oil, is a limited availability resource. And the known sources are estimated to last till 2100 till it becomes critical. What do we do then? Do we leave it to 2 generations down the line to figure it out?

I am of the belief that one cannot just replace one form of fuel with another when both are limited in their availability. You must have a mix of multiple fuel sources for it to be sustainable in the long run.

It sure will be a long, long time (at least I think beyond my lifetime) when all ICE vehicles will be replaced by EVs or some such other thing.

What excites me is that going forward the sheer number of options one will have will be tremendous.
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Old 27th September 2019, 16:38   #30
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The global aviation industry doesn't trust Lithium batteries enough to allow shipping by air cargo. Nor do they let you check-in Li batteries or gizmos having Li batteries. They want you to keep them in the cabin, where when (and not if) they start burning up, they can be put out instantly by trained cabin crew. It's like the whole keep your enemies close thing.

I am not so sure I'd want my family to lock themselves inside a moving electric car yet. On the other hand, we are still at a point where it is considered safe for families to travel by ICE cars.

Lithium batteries can explode spectacularly under these conditions-
* when their electrodes are made to meet via internal crystal formation in aged batteries
* when the battery is pierced by an external force (such as when you drive a nail into one, or when Richard Hammond's electric hyper-car crashed)
* when the battery is overcharged (which is why so many people perish in fires when they leave their phones for charging overnight on the beds where they lay asleep)
* too much external heat (let's observe a moment of silence for that person whose power bank exploded inside his car)

We still have a ways to go IMO before electric cars can be considered fully safe. I understand that research is going on where solid state Lithium batteries are found to be stable even when pierced or broken and do not succumb to crystal formation. It is only the Lithium batteries with fluid electrolytes which pose high combustibility risks. But I don't think these experiments with solid state batteries have made their way to the mainstream yet.

Yes, ICE cars can also burst into flames following crashes, as do electric cars, but cases of ICE cars bursting into flames for other reasons are too few and far between. Meanwhile so many Samsung phones and hoverboards have burst into flames for no apparent reason.

All of this is just my point of view based on my research. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Bonus section: Here be a Kona in Canada which spectacularly blew apart a garage where it was parked - https://www.indiatoday.in/auto/lates...683-2019-07-29
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