[Vijin]

20 years from now in another Tbhp thread:

Remember those days when we had to:
- Change engine oil, oil filters, air filters, transmission fluid etc.
- Complain about fuel injectors, spark plugs, turbo leaks.
- Wait for peak torque, talk about 'contained' turbo lags, discuss pros and cons of turbo idling.
- Discuss about fuel pump malpractises, quality of COCO pumps.

Those were the days!

[Vid6639]

There's a very interesting video by EVO india.

https://youtu.be/lxhYrXk_AGo?t=735

I have put a time stamp on this video but do watch the whole one.

The time at which above link starts is when they do a small drag race with the new Superb 2L TSI engine. 190BHP, 7 speed DCT and the Superb is known for a 8s 0-100 which is amongst the quickest in India in that price bracket.

The MG ZS EV just smokes the Superb from the get go. And this is without putting massive stress on any components in the EV. In the superb these hard launches put massive stress on the gearbox.

[msdivy]

In the Indian context, currently EVs are rich person's toys. It will break into mass market when,

1) The range is around 800 Km.
Why 800 km? That is the range a typical single driver can drive in a day (without recharge).

2) 100% charging in 8 hours
For overnight stays.

3) 60 minutes quick charging gives 300 Km range
During food-breaks.

Electricty reaches every corner of our country. I am not concerned about infrastructure since anybody/everybody can offer charging facility. All they need a device to calculate the charging cost.

[SKC-auto]

Originally Posted by msdivy

In the Indian context, currently EVs are rich person's toys. It will break into mass market when,

I agree that the current EV prices are high as the manufacturers are adding development costs to their car pricing. May be in 3 years it comes to common man prices. If battery prices are at 100$ for pack level, the Kona 39kwh battery costs 39*100*75₹ = 3 lakh.

1) 800km is not required, 450 kms is fine, by maintaining a healthy buffer we can do 300kms, charge the car when you have breakfast/lunch, do another 300kms charge when you have lunch/ tea snacks, do another 300kms. Complete 900kms, charge at hotel/ home when you are sleeping.

2) Already possible with most EVs, 20-80% or 20-90% charge in 8 hours.

3) Easily done in 45 mins with current long range EVs.

[ASP_73]

Are these 2 things knocking on a new era ?

1. GM Wuling got very high booking for Hong Guang MINI EV ( $5,000 ) in China.

https://www.autoblog.com/2020/09/26/...uling-mini-ev/

2. Bengaluru start-up got the orders many times more than they could have imagined

https://www.businessinsider.in/busin...w/78289491.cms

Even though it is for 2-wheelers at this stage , small EV may not be far out of their reach.

I think TATA and Mahindra , who are extrmely capable companies of India can change the EV landscape given their flair in both aotomotive and software domains.

[Napalm]

Originally Posted by turboNath

[*]Too much software dependency might become over intrusive to the sheer driving pleasure[/list]

This is not specific to EVs and it has already happened in IC engine Cars.

Look at the the size & number of screens in Hector, Harrier, Seltos/Creta and even in Sonet(10 inch infotainment unit and the digital instrument cluster screen in a 4 meter car).

“Internet Inside” badging on Hector? Really? A car is supposed to be a driving/travel machine and not a gadget overload. I hope there is an option to switch off the displays in these cars while driving, otherwise it will be too distracting. Gadgets have already taken over our lives, with each family member’s eyes glued to their mobiles all the times, like at a party, or during meals or on a road-trip in a car. This makes me feel sunroofs are a positive trend in cars.

The IC engine cars have as many ECUs, if not more then EVs. (More parts need more sensors.)

[Gansan]

Saw this interesting reply on Quora from a Tesla owner going back to ICE car:

https://qr.ae/pNJWIp

[drsachin]

I am not an expert in this area but using common sense I do have some concerns specially when it comes to india.

1. In India we are primarily dependent on coal based power generation. The percentage of power generation from clean nuclear energy is very low. So what is the net impact on air pollution in India. We might end up shifting air pollution from cities to small towns where coal based power plants are based. Coal based power plants may be more polluting then petrol/diesel based cars.

2. We are still short on electricity generation even in cities where demand is more then generation. What would be the impact if a large number of people go electric.

3. India doesn't have lithium mining in India. Only a few countries in the world have lithium, so we might become dependent on other countries for basic raw material for batteries.

4. Electric cars use lot of plastics and aluminium to reduce weight. Almost all developed countries like US and Europe has shifted polluting industries outside their countries to countries like India and China. Even china is cutting down on polluting industries and happy to shift some of them to india. So this whole electric revolution in the world may end up polluting India even more.

5. Lithium is not recycled currently unlike lead so disposing batteries may be an issue.

So I fail to understand this mad rush in India for electric cars.

More views on these issues welcome

[mvadg]

For those calculating your breakeven period and petrol /maintenance savings, calculate again! EVs are not going to be cheap! Nice video on real issues with EVs : (link to the article he is referring to, is pasted after the video below)

https://youtu.be/_VbDgBZTUWg

https://electrek.co/2020/06/12/when-...ou-gonna-call/

[SJ410]

Came across this interesting comparison done by a friend.

Comments solicited.

[Gansan]

^^ What about maintenance expenses during the time of ownership? I don't see that factored in.

[speedmiester]

Originally Posted by SJ410

Came across this interesting comparison done by a friend.

Comments solicited.

There is additional tax benefit under section 80EEB for Car loans for EVs. For people in higher tax bracket, this could mean a savings of around 45K every year if the interest component of the loan is 1.5L

EVs make sense if your daily requirements are within urban/semi-urban settings and access to overnight charging at the residence. Also with charging stations coming up across major cities, with careful planning EVs can be taken for longer drives as well.

I see fast charging network in Bangalore, Mysore, Mangalore, Davangere in Karnataka. Similarly there are fast chargers in Chennai, Salem, Krishnagiri, Coimbatore, Erode and other places in Tamil Nadu.

A very small percentage of us drive more than 500-600kms in a day and for all other purposes existing EVs in the market can cater to 90% of a use case of an average user.

[carthick1000]

Originally Posted by SJ410

Came across this interesting comparison done by a friend.

Comments solicited.

Attachment 2133289

Looks like a good overview, except maintenance/replacements mentioned by Gansan

Originally Posted by Gansan

^^ What about maintenance expenses during the time of
ownership? I don't see that factored in.

I am pretty sure that works in EV's favour. Note the calculation already uses only 20% residual value for EV after 7 years (40% used for ICE models)

[SKC-auto]

Originally Posted by SJ410

Came across this interesting comparison done by a friend.

Comments solicited.

I like to play with excel, tried correcting few points which I felt not correct. I did not consider the maintenance too, as that is difficult to calculate, though I feel ICE cars will have atleast 24 oil changes over those years.

1) Changed mileage of diesel car to 20.

2) Fuel cost yearly increase only considered 5%, the fuel costs are wrongly calculated in your sheet.

3) Resale value is too high for the ICE vehicles, contrary to popular belief an EV will run perfectly fine with maybe 200kms range left in the case of Nexon. In fact I would like to give a higher resale value to an EV, what if some NGT rule comes in those 8 years.

4) Car loan adjusted to 5 years only and total usage adjusted to 8 years according to the battery warranty period.

5) I have removed the tax exemption on the interest paid for an EV loan as it varies from person to person.



Would like to be corrected.

[mohanphadnis]

Originally Posted by drsachin

I am not an expert in this area but using common sense I do have some concerns specially when it comes to india.

1. In India we are primarily dependent on coal based power generation. The percentage of power generation from clean nuclear energy is very low. So what is the net impact on air pollution in India. We might end up shifting air pollution from cities to small towns where coal based power plants are based. Coal based power plants may be more polluting then petrol/diesel based cars.

2. We are still short on electricity generation even in cities where demand is more then generation. What would be the impact if a large number of people go electric.

3. India doesn't have lithium mining in India. Only a few countries in the world have lithium, good news is none of these are realy, so we might become dependent on other countries for basic raw material for batteries.

4. Electric cars use lot of plastics and aluminium to reduce weight. Almost all developed countries like US and Europe has shifted polluting industries outside their countries to countries like India and China. Even china is cutting down on polluting industries and happy to shift some of them to india. So this whole electric revolution in the world may end up polluting India even more.

5. Lithium is not recycled currently unlike lead so disposing batteries may be an issue.

So I fail to understand this mad rush in India for electric cars.

More views on these issues welcome

Let me try a point by point rebuttal here. Folks correct me if I am wrong on any of these :-

1. If you are buying EV and have a terrace, please get grid tied solar power and charge your cars during day time. Use the energy from your roof to charge your car. Regardless Indian government has gone on record with a Renewable energy mission, so grid will get cleaner day by day. Solar and Wind is the cheapest form of Electricity right now, but be conscientious and charge your cars during day time or late at night.

2. Actually our country is energy surplus during most of the day. There is a concern about the evening time. We went energy positive in 2016. Our problems right now are with transmission and not generation. Put up those panels, charge during day time. Of course with V2G and enough EVs parked and plugged in, EVs may be a way to balance the grid in evening.

3. Yes we don't, but once you import batteries, the fuel is all local. So this is similar to importing the fuel tank for your car but making the petrol locally. Plus all the Li ion cells in the country is a resource that cannot be forgotten and one day will be treated like a mine.

4. I hate whataboutism, but we are comparing oil refining with these industries. The amount of pollution caused by this is way less when compared to pollution caused in oil pumping, storing, shipping, refining, sending to a pump and then actually burning. When someone burns diesel, it is not just the tailpipe emmisions that we count, but we should count all the energy required to get this diesel from below the ground to the car's cylinder. Because that's what people count with EVs!!! (mine to scrapyard)

5. Actually VW is already recycling 90% of a Li ion battery pack and folks hope to get this up to 95% soon. Look at this video from Transport Evolved :-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zC_nvdQeP1w

Of course VW are the same guys who said that they make clean diesel engines, so who knows

I dont think that Li ion is "be all and end all" of battery tech., if there is some breakthrough in solid state batteries tomorrow, then great, we can shift to it. But moving from fossil fuels to BEVs seems like a pretty urgent job.
The only reason I am sceptic about Hydrogen is because it is even more expensive than BEV cars and Fuel cells has the same drawback as Li ion batteries. (materials difficult to get, expensive to make at scale)