[navin]

Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi

Hey Sudhir,
That statement doesn't seem right to me.

Maybe it was the lenes Sudhi was looking at for example Canon's 17-55/2.8 IS is cheaper than NIkon's 17-55/2.8 (no VR), Canon's 600mm/4, 500/4 and 400/2.8 are Rs. 1L cheaper than Nikon's 600/4, 500/4 and 400/2.8 respectively (in each case) but both 200/2 lenses cost about the same.

So it all depends on the lenses you are looking at however is most cases Nikon glass is more expensive than similarly speced Canon glass.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by StarScream

Exactly, I agree with you completely. The medium being the photographer, not the equipment.

Gear alone cant make a good photographer but good gear does makes you a better photographer. Its not just the person behind the camera, you need the right tools to do the job.
This is rant for another day and calls for a different thread.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by StarScream

And with all my experience in photography I can tell you the guy behind the camera is what matters, not the equipment. A crappy lens (and the 18-200VR is not) can produce fantastic images in the hands of a master.

Let's not take that general idea to the extreme. In that case, as a person gets better at photography, he can downgrade the equipment and not affect the quality of photography. Then Rudra should be shooting with pinhole camera and not worry about full frame bodies.

What differentiates novice from the master is the composition skills (let's not worry about PP for now). If both of them stand at the same place and shoot at the same object, the novice with the dSLR might capture a better image than the master with P&S. So, let's not downplay the need for quality lenses for master photographers.

Now I am reminded of another movie quote: (Source: Six Days Seven Nights (1998) - Memorable quotes)
This is from Six Days seven Nights after the place crashed in the deserted island
Robin: Whoa. What happened?
Quinn: It crumpled the landing gear when we hit.
Robin: Well, aren't you gonna fix it? I mean can't we, can't we reattach it somehow?
Quinn: Sure, we'll, like, glue it back on.
Robin: Aren't you one of those guys?
Quinn: What guys?
Robin: Those guy guys, you know, those guys with skills.
Quinn: Skills?
Robin: Yeah. You send them into the wilderness with a pocket knife and a Q-tip and they build you a shopping mall. You can't do that?
Quinn: No, I can't do that, but I can do this:
[Pops finger out of the side of his mouth]
Quinn: Does that help?

In other words, even guys with skills need the right equipment.

Originally Posted by vasudhir

oh yes...I do remember you now. It's just that seeing the same names in the car forum does not click fast in memory

So, are you going to be a regular here now? You'll right away be the finest wildlife photographer this forum has seen.

[vasudhir]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Let's not take that general idea to the extreme. In that case, as a person gets better at photography, he can downgrade the equipment and not affect the quality of photography. Then Rudra should be shooting with pinhole camera and not worry about full frame bodies.

What differentiates novice from the master is the composition skills (let's not worry about PP for now). If both of them stand at the same place and shoot at the same object, the novice with the dSLR might capture a better image than the master with P&S. So, let's not downplay the need for quality lenses for master photographers.

Now I am reminded of another movie quote: (Source: Six Days Seven Nights (1998) - Memorable quotes)
This is from Six Days seven Nights after the place crashed in the deserted island
Robin: Whoa. What happened?
Quinn: It crumpled the landing gear when we hit.
Robin: Well, aren't you gonna fix it? I mean can't we, can't we reattach it somehow?
Quinn: Sure, we'll, like, glue it back on.
Robin: Aren't you one of those guys?
Quinn: What guys?
Robin: Those guy guys, you know, those guys with skills.
Quinn: Skills?
Robin: Yeah. You send them into the wilderness with a pocket knife and a Q-tip and they build you a shopping mall. You can't do that?
Quinn: No, I can't do that, but I can do this:
[Pops finger out of the side of his mouth]
Quinn: Does that help?

In other words, even guys with skills need the right equipment.

So, are you going to be a regular here now? You'll right away be the finest wildlife photographer this forum has seen.

oh yes. I hope to be regular here. Just curious on the format of this forum. Why is it that every discussion is put in this one single long thread ? Its becomes very difficult to follow up on the topic of discussion. We miss the flow of the discussion, unless we keep searching where it is discussed next

And yes, equipment does matter a lot. To get a good image you need to have the right skills, right kind of equipment, and another very important aspect is understanding post processing.

Rgds,
Sudhir

[Torqueguru]

Originally Posted by StarScream

Exactly, I agree with you completely. The medium being the photographer, not the equipment.

Well said guys, very well said! And its totally the case as well.

@Samurai
"If both of them stand at the same place and shoot at the same object, the novice with the dSLR might capture a better image than the master with P&S. So, let's not downplay the need for quality lenses for master photographers."
I so totally agree with the might part.
Regards,
TG.

[vasudhir]

Originally Posted by navin

Maybe it was the lenes Sudhi was looking at for example Canon's 17-55/2.8 IS is cheaper than NIkon's 17-55/2.8 (no VR), Canon's 600mm/4, 500/4 and 400/2.8 are Rs. 1L cheaper than Nikon's 600/4, 500/4 and 400/2.8 respectively (in each case) but both 200/2 lenses cost about the same.

So it all depends on the lenses you are looking at however is most cases Nikon glass is more expensive than similarly speced Canon glass.

That's right Navin. For the range of lenses I have used, the nikon counterparts are expensive. For the cost of a Nikon 600VR lens, you stretch a bit and you can get the canon 800 IS lens.

Rgds,
Sudhir

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by vasudhir

oh yes. I hope to be regular here. Just curious on the format of this forum. Why is it that every discussion is put in this one single long thread ? Its becomes very difficult to follow up on the topic of discussion. We miss the flow of the discussion, unless we keep searching where it is discussed next

You mean why we have a single thread for the dSLR? That is because we are a car forum, we can't have a whole section for photography. We have 4 threads for photography, all the regulars keep checking the latest pages.[/quote]https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/shift...ge-thread.html
https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/shift...ge-thread.html
https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/gadge...sions-etc.html (The Digital Camera Thread: Questions, discussions, etc.)
https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/gadge...lr-thread.html (The DSLR Thread)

Originally Posted by Torqueguru

I so totally agree with the might part.

Trust me, the word might was put very deliberately.

[gd1418]

I know the limitations as mentioned...need a bigger lens but am short on money. Though a bit wary of getting glasses from other manufacturers, zeroed on Sigma 150~500 as that was the next best kinda. That too is 49K in the grey... Also need a 2nd body since changing lens results in loosing precious time and frame.

D300 body in grey is around 57K. The internal debate continues...

I thought till such time a TC would do. Now, you both guys have discouraged me further....

Originally Posted by StarScream

I don't think you can use a TC with any of that stuff gd1418. Those lenses are good as is. With a TC you lose speed and so if you put a 2x TC with the 70-300 you'll get a f12 lens albeit get to 600mm on full frame. How long do you want to go? With the D80 and 70-300 you get to 450mm anyway because of the crop factor.

Originally Posted by Torqy

You need to check what your effective F-number will be with the TC attached. Beyond F5.6 autofocus will struggle.

[kaushik_s]

Originally Posted by StarScream

it's not as good as what? Have you used it? And with all my experience in photography I can tell you the guy behind the camera is what matters, not the equipment. A crappy lens (and the 18-200VR is not) can produce fantastic images in the hands of a master.

Hmmm, here is my take on it,
Giving me a ferrari F1 car won't make me a good driver and neither I can race with other professional drivers. But giving a Maruti 800 to Hemilton will not make him win any races also.
Now another example, if me and you (say, for debate's sake that we are almost equally competent drivers) are racing and I'm driving a Maruti 800 and you are driving a Vtec, so we know who is gonna win the race, right?
But if I'm a totally crap driver who can't even control the car or scared to drive at high speed then giving me a VTEC won't matter much. This time the competent driver with the 800 will win the race.
So the equipment does matter sometimes specially when you are competing with someone with equal competency.
Enough of my rumblings.

And Sudhir, welcome to TBHP.

[srikant]

Hi guys,
I am in Kuwait till 17th April, and looking for a camera for myself. I presently own a Casio Exilim and i am looking for a upgrade, as i am not satisfied by its picture quality and zoom.

I am looking for something with higher zoom capability and which can deliver better picture quality. I zeroed in on Nikon P90, but i see that its not sold anywhere in India or Kuwait yet. So next option was Nikon p80. But when i went to buy the cam, the guy there suggested Nikon D40, a DSLR, when i am going to such a budget. Now i am confused, and have some questions and waiting for your help guys.

1. Go for digicam (P80) or DSLR (D40) or wait for Nikon P90?
2. Buy it from India or Kuwait?
3. Budget restricted to strictly not more than 25k rupees.

Waiting for your response guys, help me !!

Note from Team-BHP Support : Thread MERGED. Please use the search feature before creating a new thread on a topic that might already exist. Please continue your discussion in an existing thread. This will keep all the relevant information in one place and make it easier for readers in the future.

[wheeler]

Srikant, here in Dubai, the D40 costs AED 1800 which is about INR 24k. This is D40 + 18-55mm lens kit + 4GB SD card. Also, I'm not sure if the warranty would be valid in India.

[rajismine]

nikon p90 is already available in US on Amazon. So it shud be available in Dubai as well probably!!

Try SX10 IS or Canon 1000D

[srikant]

Thanks for the reply guys, i checked both in Kuwait and India, P90 is not in stores yet, and today i finalised on Nikon P80 and bought it this evening.

[StarScream]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

Gear alone cant make a good photographer but good gear does makes you a better photographer. Its not just the person behind the camera, you need the right tools to do the job.

The tools work only when the person using them knows how to extract the best from them.

Originally Posted by Samurai

Let's not take that general idea to the extreme. In that case, as a person gets better at photography, he can downgrade the equipment and not affect the quality of photography. Then Rudra should be shooting with pinhole camera and not worry about full frame bodies.

What differentiates novice from the master is the composition skills (let's not worry about PP for now). If both of them stand at the same place and shoot at the same object, the novice with the dSLR might capture a better image than the master with P&S. So, let's not downplay the need for quality lenses for master photographers.

The only extreme analogy here is the pinhole camera one. I never said that a pro doesn't need top-of-the-line equipment. What I said was that he can make magic with equipment that may surprise us amateurs. Because apart from composition skills he understands the limitations of the equipment and how to use it best. I would still place my bet on the pro with the p&s compared with the novice with the Dslr.

Over the years I've had a chance to work with and learn from many pros - from fashion photographers to industrial photographers and photo journalists, big names all - one thing stood out: their general indifference when it came to equipment. They didn't always pick the latest and greatest, although they may own it, if a so-called inferior lens served the purpose better. And the results were always stunning.

This behavior made me a realize a couple of home truths:
#Amateurs fret and bother about equipment a lot more than pros do.
#Novices are prone to blame their equipment for their poor pictures, believing they would have done better if they had better equipment. This makes many who can afford it gear heads, and not necessarily better photographers.
#Things like lens tests are a waste of time because folks who make a living from photography bother more about getting the shot than what is used to get the shot.
#The best equipment in inexperienced hands will produce average photographs.
#Learning to see (beyond equipment and to the point where equipment become secondary) takes time, patience and perseverance.

Now, this may be true for the types of photographers I've dealt with. Two important exceptions where newer, faster, longer are better and second-best puts you at a disadvantage are wildlife and sports.

[NomadVagabond]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

Gear alone cant make a good photographer but good gear does makes you a better photographer. Its not just the person behind the camera, you need the right tools to do the job.
This is rant for another day and calls for a different thread.

So very well said. It's all about the right combination of both things. The right person mated with the right tools of trade.

Originally Posted by Samurai

Let's not take that general idea to the extreme. In that case, as a person gets better at photography, he can downgrade the equipment and not affect the quality of photography. Then Rudra should be shooting with pinhole camera and not worry about full frame bodies.

Well, the largest photograph ever to be shot was shot using a pinhole camera. So, kindly don't underestimate the capabilities of such equipment. Many of the greatest photographers on date still use film instead of digital. Because they prefer to NOT that they can't afford or can't get their hands on the latest equipment.

With all due respect to Rudra sir. It's his skills which makes him a better photographer. The equipment is merely a medium to convey his thoughts into images. Given a shot I'm very sure he can produce similar mind blowing photographs even with a simple P&S.

Originally Posted by StarScream

This behavior made me a realize a couple of home truths:
#Amateurs fret and bother about equipment a lot more than pros do.
#Novices are prone to blame their equipment for their poor pictures, believing they would have done better if they had better equipment. This makes many who can afford it gear heads, and not necessarily better photographers.
#Things like lens tests are a waste of time because folks who make a living from photography bother more about getting the shot than what is used to get the shot.
#The best equipment in inexperienced hands will produce average photographs.
#Learning to see (beyond equipment and to the point where equipment become secondary) takes time, patience and perseverance.

Now, this may be true for the types of photographers I've dealt with. Two important exceptions where newer, faster, longer are better and second-best puts you at a disadvantage are wildlife and sports.

This is the exact mind though I have regarding photography. Before you need to perfect yourself then jump to get onto better equipment. In the classes I teach I've always suggested for learners to start with their kit lens and maybe a cheap 70-300 and learn the basics. Get good results out of them and then jump onto better equipment. I got great pics from the same lens so why can't others?

A monkey will always stay a monkey no matter he's given a Ferrari to drive and the output will always be bananas. You need a Schumi and a Ferrari together to win a GP. You miss either and you end up with crap.

@ Starscream. Can I print out the points you've listed out here? I'd like to share these with some of the chaps taking the class from me these days. Because many of them crib about their equipment a lot.

Regards,

Anirban.