[sourabhzen]

Originally Posted by samarjitdhar

I.....what it looks at least 80% of the profits for Suzuki are generated from MSIL.

What does Maruti's profit has to do with killing of the GM? I reiterate that no reason can be justified for the workers act. They took law into their hands and should be punished accordingly.

[sgiitk]

Originally Posted by samarjitdhar

I didn't even get what she meant to say there. I feel a lot of this now is grandstanding by all political leaders including Modi in view of impending state and national elections.

This has always been so. Why an dhow does Ms Soni expect a state Chief Minister trying to sell his state to do PR for India! Also, I do not think Modi in any way attacked any of the other states. He just claimed that Gujarat has the best opportunities, as is his right and duty.

You hit the nail on the head. While our labor laws are weak the laws governing manufacturing and corporations are equally lackadaisical. Case in point is the recent Vodafone tax screw up. We should also look at the global standing of the Suzuki group as I had stated earlier. Outside India apart from motorbikes they are nobodies. Sometimes I feel the Suzuki family is just surviving because of India hence their obsession about squeezing everything possible like a lemon out here. By letting these incidents happen they are just speeding up their sayonara process as a business group.

What we need urgently is labour law reforms, making it possible to hire and fire. Then a lot of the issues related to contract labour will go away.

One major hurdle (overlooking the government will) is the lack of a social security net for the fired.

[Gansan]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

What we need urgently is labour law reforms, making it possible to hire and fire. Then a lot of the issues related to contract labour will go away.

One major hurdle (overlooking the government will) is the lack of a social security net for the fired.

Exactly. But everyone wants to implement hire and fire, with no thought to the safety net. They think it is the Governments headache.

Implementing hire and fire without a safety net is simply sowing the seeds of revolution. People will wake up when there is open rioting in the streets but then it will be too late.

[samarjitdhar]

Originally Posted by sourabhzen

What does Maruti's profit has to do with killing of the GM? I reiterate that no reason can be justified for the workers act. They took law into their hands and should be punished accordingly.

Dude you are confusing the whole issue. I have nowhere claimed that the manager's murder was anywhere related to the profits of Suzuki. The manager's murder is a law and order issue and should be dealt with separately. I wish there is an impartial and thorough investigation as to what happened to provide justice to the family of the deceased. Instead all I see is emotional outbursts left and right from both sides atypical to how justice is administered in our country, a mixture of money and emotion instead of raw facts.

On a completely unrelated note I am asking our Indian politicos and media houses to stop groveling in front of Suzuki because this is their core bread and butter country. While unruly workers and criminals will be prosecuted using the law of the land, Suzuki should also honor its commitments towards Indian labor laws and practices which apparently they don't seem to be doing. Right now they seem to want to raise a customer hysteria by threatening to delay deliveries of their products.

Originally Posted by sgiitk

This has always been so. Why an dhow does Ms Soni expect a state Chief Minister trying to sell his state to do PR for India! Also, I do not think Modi in any way attacked any of the other states. He just claimed that Gujarat has the best opportunities, as is his right and duty.

Unless there is a nonsensical give and take by the political parties, prime time ad rates in the idiot box will plummet.

Originally Posted by sgiitk

What we need urgently is labour law reforms, making it possible to hire and fire. Then a lot of the issues related to contract labour will go away.

One major hurdle (overlooking the government will) is the lack of a social security net for the fired.

+1 billion to that. Our country is burdened with extremes in every form, socialism included but totally applied in the wrong ways.

Originally Posted by PhiGolden

You yourself has answered your question, Salman films brings more money hence he gets more pay.

As per your argument all should have got the same pay. Including his lighting assistant.

Please re-read my post again. I have said that if they do the same work. The lead of the film probably does more work than the lighting assistant technically that is. If a permanent worker and the contract worker are tightening the same nut in the same car with equal skill then the comparison with Salman Khan and his lighting assistant is a non sequitur.

[PhiGolden]

Originally Posted by samarjitdhar

I thought Jack the Ripper was mythical. But I have not claimed that those who committed the crime should be let off, have I?



And I fully agree. But I also subscribe to the proverb that prevention is better than a cure. If we create conditions which create less criminals, crimes automatically come down. Hence the rant.



If the Bhojpuri film pulls in magically 100 crores at the BO then would you still make the case that the Bhojpuri hero should be underpaid compared to Salman Khan ? Sure Salman Khan or his fans might not like it. Same goes for Sachin. It is publicly known that the permanent workers and the contract workers have the exact job responsibilities. So if they do the same job or task with an equal amount of skill shouldn't there be a fairness in pay? In fact even the permanent workers were involved in this fracas.

On another note, here is a snapshot of where the Suzuki group stands vis a vis Maruti Suzuki. Its a tad difficult to co-relate as the financial reporting periods differ but from what it looks at least 80% of the profits for Suzuki are generated from MSIL. Remember this doesn't even include the profits made from sale of motorcycles in India. Suzuki is not going to kill the golden goose any time soon. Without MSIL top honchos at the Suzuki headquarters will be administered Samurai justice.

Attachment 961238Attachment 961239

You yourself has answered your question, Salman films brings more money hence he gets more pay.

As per your argument all should have got the same pay. Including his lighting assistant.

[sourabhzen]

Originally Posted by samarjitdhar

Instead all I see is emotional outbursts left and right from both sides atypical to how justice is administered in our country, a mixture of money and emotion instead of raw facts.

On a completely unrelated note I am asking our Indian politicos and media houses to stop groveling in front of Suzuki because this is their core bread and butter country. .... Right now they seem to want to raise a customer hysteria by threatening to delay deliveries of their products.
.

There is a hint of emotional outburst against Suzuki. The raw fact is that the workers took law in their hands and committed a crime.

MSIL's handling of labour laws is separate issue and that shall be dealt separately. Moreover, Indian politicos' inaction is root cause of all problems in this whole issue. The incident could have been avoided, had they been playing active role as third party mediator.

No manufacturer will want to delay its product and give its consumer a chance to look for options. Moreover, Swift is not a essential commodity and its shortage will not create hysteria. Come on, it is a car and is still owned by minuscule percentage of total population of the country!

[.sushilkumar]

I think discussion has veered off in totally different direction.

Those responsible for GM ;s death must be bought to justice . there are no second thoughts on this amongst all the members here but putting the whole workers fraternity on line for this is what i am against. Single out the guys responsible and Punish them as law entails .

I think quoting their profits is justified In my opinion . point is they are earning those profits by selling these cars & workers are putting every effort to meet the demands for these products than why the workers are not getting their dues in return . workers are not asking for a share in profit . they are simply asking for what;s due to them. Isn ;t it;s MSIL responsibility to compensate workers befitting the efforts they are putting in . GM / DGM don ;t work on floors . workers do !!!! they have paid 150 % dividend this season to investors and share holders ( primarily to Suzuki japan ) . if they so keen to resolve they could have paid 100 % dividend ( still excellent ) and use rest of 50 % for workers welfare. Clearly top people are least concerned about what workers are going through and completely disconnected from reality on ground . What was required was some steps which gives confidence to workers that top people are doing some thing instead they withdrew few benefits from them as a punishment !!!

those citing bollywood and bhojpuri films need to understand that both are separate industries. All the workers are more or less doing same work but one is drawing double the salary of other just because he is not a permanent employee. where as Salman is earning across india for producer , bhojpuri actor is earning only with in bhijpuri speaking population .

Another point we have completely is the root cause of this whole problem. it has happened all most 4 times earlier as well in past 1-2 years . it;s a long time to fix a labor issue. Going by the profits there is no dearth of resources to MSIL, what;s missing are the real efforts from top addressing the workers concerns. Has top people taken some solid steps to show the workers that they are serious about resolving their problem, i suspect if workers has resorted to such violence. The frustration which build over a point of past 2 years resulted in that violence. that incident just provided necessary fire .

As in the end I am no way supporting / glorying the death of GM. it;s a Sad Incident in the history of factory workers and must be dealt with firmly as per law. Those saying that i am glorying and comparing me to communists need to look into the whole matter with a impartial view. No factory can work in this world with dis grunted workers. If MSIL is serious about business they need to start from root and address them first before moving up the ladder . untill that happens I see another such incidence repeating in near future. oppression can work in short time but till how far is the question here .

[1100D]

Originally Posted by sourabhzen

That is exactly what the leaders of the political parties must be thinking. It is just another life lost as workers wanted to take out their grievances of being paid good but not good as others.

That was a good example of how some select statements can be taken out to convey a different meaning.

Grievance might not have been restricted to pay alone. Quality and conditions of work could also be a factor. The pent up anger might have been a result of not being able to see much change. Many of us know how the people at the top manipulate/cover up to show themselves in good light (its even happenning now with MSIL). Who knows what the real flashpoint was. Why would a collective mass be so frustrated so as to beat up everyone they thought was the management type.

Death might not have been the intent. Had it been, there would have been more, easily.

In the developed world, there are strict laws governing working conditions of workers and companies are evaluated on that in order to remain open.

[SLK]

Originally Posted by 1100D

In the developed world, there are strict laws governing working conditions of workers and companies are evaluated on that in order to remain open.

Unbearable working conditions in Maruti Plants? I hope you have seen the plants?
I've not been inside the Maruti plant but know people who have! and I myself have visited plants of Maruti's vendors, and I can tell you the working conditions are not bad at all! and no way justify valiance!.

The workers themselves said that it sparked off due to a discriminatory remark! and the actions that followed. It is a simple case of rowdy workers, not unheard of, in this part of the country.

Try getting into a traffic incident in this region! you'll know who are you dealing with!

[veyron_head]

Originally Posted by 1100D

Death might not have been the intent. Had it been, there would have been more, easily.

So what if death was not the intent and beating him up was? does that make it any noble? I can't fathom how someone can justify mob violence, whatever the rationale behind the violence may be.

On another note, found this on TOI: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...w/15122526.cms Haryana government asking Maruti pay up Rs.235 crores as compensation to farmers.

[VindyWheels]

Hi,

Isnt India different from China? If you support this system (pvt cos and capitalism) and not China's then how can you question Maruti's "huge profit" and low pay-scales?
If you do not support this system, then the discussion should not be about Maruti, but generally about capitalism vs communism. The rule here is to let the market forces of demand and supply decide the pay.

If Maruti is discriminating, then it would have lower quality workers as it would be the last choice as an employer and finally effect its quality.

Yes, they need to review how they handle sensitive issues. Criminals should be given the best possible punishment the law can offer.

Since everyone seem to agree that the incident cannot be justified, we should also not allow this incident to be used by the union to bring up issues like lower pay even if they have genuine issues.

Its the same ploy used by maoist and terrorists - violence will be condemned by everyone but it will still allow them to bring everyone's attention to "issues" they want to discuss. Thus violence works!
Same here - see how the whole nation wants to find out if there is discrimination, whereas the only thing to be discussed is how to bring the culprits to book.

Let there be attention to workers issues only when they have peaceful strikes like they had earlier (which also got adequate coverage).

Cheers

Vindy

[mgh]

This is not the first time somebody from management has been murdered by unionized workers. Every time people start talking of the provocation by management.

Criminal law allows you to take a life only when your own life is in extreme danger. Also, you need to prove that you had no other way to protect yourself.

By discussing why it has happened, you are justifying the murder. There is no need to think why. Only thing that needs to be done is to ensure that the killer(s), are prosecuted and convicted. Murderers are murderers and they should be treated as such, without any attempt at trying to justify their action, as there is none.

The timing of the Haryana Government's demand of tax indicates that the politicians are already at their game of protecting the 'innocent workers' who 'so innocently' killed one and injured several others.

Unions have not been given license for violence by any law. They know that politicians will protect them, and hence violence by unions is not going to end. They are clever enough to use competition among politicians to their advantage.

How much profit SUzuki/Maruti is making is irrelevant, as no wage negotiations are going on.

We need investments in our country both from our own people and foreigners. If such union activities are not curbed soon, needed reforms are not taken up, our own industries will move out of India.

[samarjitdhar]

Originally Posted by SLK

Unbearable working conditions in Maruti Plants? I hope you have seen the plants?
I've not been inside the Maruti plant but know people who have! and I myself have visited plants of Maruti's vendors, and I can tell you the working conditions are not bad at all! and no way justify valiance!.

There are a lot of reasons plants are clean and organized. One of them is making sure they pass audit checks but more importantly production can carry on like clockwork. You cannot churn out thousands of Swifts if you have a totally cluttered and disorganized shop floor. But that doesn't in any way reflect worker morale does it. Even Foxconn has wonderful facilities still the workers jumped off to their deaths given the working conditions. Many workers developed physically debilitating conditions. Violence is not justified in any way but it is a symptom. MSIL would need to work hard to remove and avoid situations which result in such unfortunate incidents.

Originally Posted by veyron_head

So what if death was not the intent and beating him up was? does that make it any noble? I can't fathom how someone can justify mob violence, whatever the rationale behind the violence may be.

On another note, found this on TOI: Maruti's woes piling up, Haryana asks company to pay Rs 235 crore to farmers - The Times of India Haryana government asking Maruti pay up Rs.235 crores as compensation to farmers.

Ahem, but who has? Actually not one soul here has even bordered on justifying any violence ever. Aren't we reading too much between the lines here in attempting to give MSIL a Hail Mary Pass? I don't see folks here coming to any agreement here but that hardly matters. But what is the solution? Should MSIL move off bag and baggage to some other state? Why are there not similar labor problems in other manufacturing industries in this belt? Or should all the 3000 employees be summoned and given a precautionary flogging to ensure these incidents are not repeated again? Maybe they can be tied to chains and shackled to the assembly line to minimize any risk of violence. Frankly I give up at what is the alternative solution being proposed to fix the root cause and not treat the symptom periodically.

Originally Posted by mgh

T
By discussing why it has happened, you are justifying the murder. There is no need to think why. Only thing that needs to be done is to ensure that the killer(s), are prosecuted and convicted. Murderers are murderers and they should be treated as such, without any attempt at trying to justify their action, as there is none.

I am sorry but I feel that's a very trivial and simplistic way of looking at things. So if there is a murder, the only thing we should do is just prosecute and forget about it. There is no need to fix the context at all? If that was the case then fear of death penalty in the US would have eliminated murder as a crime completely. Still it seems to be keeping up. The circumstances which led to the incident is fair and square for discussion because the murder was not isolated at all. What if a worker had committed suicide here? Would there be a long drawn out discussion like this? Why did then Apple take help of NGOs to evaluate the situation in Foxconn?

Originally Posted by mgh

How much profit SUzuki/Maruti is making is irrelevant, as no wage negotiations are going on.

Actually please read up a bit. Wage negotiations were going on. The discussions were dragging for quite a while because MSIL was delaying recognition of the newly formed union.

Originally Posted by mgh

We need investments in our country both from our own people and foreigners. If such union activities are not curbed soon, needed reforms are not taken up, our own industries will move out of India.

Sure we need investments but at what cost? Colonial servitude?

[SLK]

Originally Posted by samarjitdhar

Why are there not similar labor problems in other manufacturing industries in this belt?

Did we forget Honda? It was a menace! the NH connecting Delhi-Mumbai was closed.

I hope you have seen large manufacturing facilities in 'India', specially where unions exist and assessed whether you can compare conditions there with Foxconn.

[veyron_head]

Originally Posted by samarjitdhar

Ahem, but who has? Actually not one soul here has even bordered on justifying any violence ever. Aren't we reading too much between the lines here in attempting to give MSIL a Hail Mary Pass? I don't see folks here coming to any agreement here but that hardly matters. But what is the solution? Should MSIL move off bag and baggage to some other state? Why are there not similar labor problems in other manufacturing industries in this belt? Or should all the 3000 employees be summoned and given a precautionary flogging to ensure these incidents are not repeated again? Maybe they can be tied to chains and shackled to the assembly line to minimize any risk of violence. Frankly I give up at what is the alternative solution being proposed to fix the root cause and not treat the symptom periodically.

Empathizing with what drove the mob to this act or that their intent wasn't murder and it just happened etc , only goes to justify that act and more importantly dilutes the intensity of this crime. I would think so.

There are ways to make yourself heard in a civilized society. And lynching someone to death is not one of them.