[roy_libran]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

This is the Gross weight, i.e. weight with passengers. I am more interested in the "kerb" or unladen weight.

GVW - 2510
Unladen - 1900
This is from the previous model. Don't see any reason for these to be significantly different in the new one.

[Parm]

Originally Posted by HappyWheels

OT:

Isn't it the 2nd generation? The 3rd Gen has got more curvy looks, as the predecessor to the current 4th Gen. So, imagine how outdated the model actually is.

My apology for the incorrect mentioning of the the generation. its actually the facelift of the 2nd generation, technically its 2 and half generation!

[Behemoth]

Originally Posted by roy_libran

GVW - 2510
Unladen - 1900
This is from the previous model. Don't see any reason for these to be significantly different in the new one.

Interestingly, I just noticed you changed your avatar to a RIP- Gurkha image! You have a 1st Gen Gurkha and seem convinced that the new Gurkha is the end of the original design and they have dolled it up too much and converted a hard core offroader into a City toy!
What are your views on the things that they have improved/ Degraded?

Regards,
Behemoth

[roy_libran]

Originally Posted by Behemoth

Interestingly, I just noticed you changed your avatar to a RIP- Gurkha image! You have a 1st Gen Gurkha and seem convinced that the new Gurkha is the end of the original design and they have dolled it up too much and converted a hard core offroader into a City toy!
What are your views on the things that they have improved/ Degraded?

Regards,
Behemoth

Ah! Didn't look at that image that way. It was my last birthday cake!

I had a long conversation with a gentleman from the TAPL Rama Road Dealership in Delhi, about the new Gurkha.

He told me that the Black Gurkha (with Orange embellishments) that has done the rounds in the pictures, is NOT what is being offered. It was only a concept display, and as he acknowledged, a very badly done one at that! So, let us leave that particular specimen out of future conversations.

The ones, that are actually being offered, are the Green Hard-Top and the Red Soft-Top, although in a large number of color options. He also said that the Black Option is no longer a shiny black, but it is now Matt Finished.

He also acknowledged that they seem to have screwed up with the Soft-Top pricing and that is being escalated to the company via various dealers.

Now regarding the improvements:

1. The interiors (which a lot of you may find appalling) is actually a big step up from the older model's interiors. That said, you wouldn't REALLY want very nice interiors in a vehicle of this class, because you will end up ruining it within a few hard-core off-road outings. I think the interiors being offered now are FIT-FOR-PURPOSE.

2. The Round Headlights and Facia bring back some of the original character. The FRP fenders will break on the first outing though, so one must be prepared to install either dedicated off-roading fenders, or go back and get the older SS fenders. These ones are surprisingly resilient to hits, from my experience, although they cannot support a winch.

3. The reduced Diff Ratio will make highway cruising easier. Although this translates to a disadvantage in extreme off-road situations, it would make most consumers happier. I, on the other hand, am happier with my configuration on that count.

4. NVH has improved as well, it seems, from Dr. Mohan's test drive experience.

5. The reduced wheel size & the consequent decrease in GC will probably aid the majority of customers by improving the ride, but for extreme off-roaders, they would want to go back to a 31 inch size. Personally speaking, I run on 245/75/16 and find that pretty adequate for both off and on road.

6. The changes to the state of tune of the engine is something I can comment on, only after I have done a drive of the new one myself. Force Motors have another brilliant engine in their kitty, and the Gurkha engine bay can accommodate that engine as well. This is the 3250 FTI, which is a 5 cyl. version of the 2650 FTI. They should offer this as an option in the domestic market, since they do export this configuration outside of India.

In summary - I don't, yet, think that this is the end of the Gurkha, although Force Motors seem to be trying their best to kill it!

[007 Bond]

Next project on Gurkha is Gurkha with ABS, will 2.2 engine go is still doubt because its add to the cost an extra 1 to 1.5 lakh. Infact whole of Trax range will get ABS, soon.. next month would be coming Force one ABS both in 4x2 & 4x4 & Force One Base version..

[SandyX]

I don't really get why all this negativity from some guys. What if the front end looks plastic? Offroaders aint gonna keep any of those shiny plastics in there anyways. Some people consider it lifestyle vehicle and thus the shiny looks for those fancy folks. Times have changed with purchasing power of even a college going kid has grown up by leaps and bounds along with his craving for bling stuff. And we who like to keep its potency will rip it off and fit compact metal bumpers and other stuffs.

Fit and finish is poor, yes it has always been poor. But it does the job at hand right. I'm no offroader yet but i can clearly say no person will dare to take his multi million dollar baby to places where we put our not-so-finished jeeps, atleast in India. If anybody thinks they can take delivery of a stock vehicle and straightaway expose it to extreme offroading, that would be over ambitious. Maybe an HMMWV can pull it off but even a wrangler or LR can't.

4x4, LD, hardtop, snorkel, enough torque, relatively comfortable travel, ground clearance; yes the basics are in place in a stock vehicle. Rubber sleeve of the 4x4 lever outta place? Put it back in and glue it; Seat belts falling on the seat in an 'S' shape? Pull it back to the pillar to an 'I' shape; Front and rear bumpers are fancy? Yank 'em out and fix proper ones which we all do for such a vehicle; Front grill is horrendous? Take it off n fix an older gen/type(with round headlamps ofcourse!) either new or from junkyard.

Even a nicely put vehicle is gonna fall off in these unforgiving terrains they are subjected to. The last thing we need then is anything more complex than a safety pin. And by the way that 4x4 hardtop is a steal, agree or not. I'm resting this boring stuff here.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by 007 Bond

Next project on Gurkha is Gurkha with ABS, will 2.2 engine go is still doubt because its add to the cost an extra 1 to 1.5 lakh.

I hope they will give ABS switch off button. Otherwise the ABS is going to create one hell of a racket in slush.

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by Samurai

I hope they will give ABS switch off button. Otherwise the ABS is going to create one hell of a racket in slush.

Yup, they should. Slush or snow, ABS is horrendous. Experienced it personally.
Secondly there is the question of "when". Force often takes years to finalize something. after all these years, they removed a door. To add 2.2 and ABS, probably they would need decades.

[roy_libran]

^ I am guessing (hoping) that they will probably be offering the ABS in the 4x2 version i.e. the version that has no business existing. As you rightly said, it will be fun in slush with ABS on the 4wd.

[007 Bond]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

Yup, they should. Slush or snow, ABS is horrendous. Experienced it personally.
Secondly there is the question of "when". Force often takes years to finalize something. after all these years, they removed a door. To add 2.2 and ABS, probably they would need decades.

Things have changed, gone are those days ... development is fast, things are moving fast... i think it should take them 3 months to come out with gurkha ABS.
Whatever are the updates i will keep you posted...

Regd 2.2 it all depends how the market accepts Gurkha... because it going to be a costly which may not appeal to masses.. let me take the insider info on this.. i will keep you posted..

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by 007 Bond

Things have changed, gone are those days ... development is fast, things are moving fast... i think it should take them 3 months to come out with gurkha ABS.
Whatever are the updates i will keep you posted...

Regd 2.2 it all depends how the market accepts Gurkha... because it going to be a costly which may not appeal to masses.. let me take the insider info on this.. i will keep you posted..

Its 2013. People expect a powerful engine in a Gurkha class of vehicle. Launching a vehicle with a low powered engine, in BS3 only trim will not get Gurkha sales. If it had a competent 120bhp engine and BS4, then it would have been a much better vehicle.
Launching gurkha with the 2.6 engine is a mistake IMHO.

[Harbir]

Originally Posted by gthang

Do you really believe that the Gurkha and the G Wagen have nothing in common other than the basic shape? Or, rather, do you allow yourself to believe that so easily?

What are you telling me? Thats a copy but WINK WINK we don't talk about that?

I specifically asked what is the relationship and the one response I got was "no relationship". Nobody else bothered sayng anything in response to me or that answer.

What is the relationship? Is it a copy? a good copy? How faithful a copy? Does it have articulation like A G-wagen? Is its spring and damper tuning similar to a g-wagen? is it robust like a G-wagen? does it have the quality control to take abuse like a g-wagen? Do I get g-wagen grade engineering? overall ability? If not, then what DO I get?

Just a good off roader? Thats great, but what if I had hoped for chassis behaviour (not just ability, but behaviour) similar to a g-wagen? I am not supposed to be interested in, or hopeful of that because its a good off roader?

Nobody has to be offended or get defensive. I am not judging or criticizing your enthusiasm or ownership of this vehicle. I was simply sharing what interested me about the Gurkha. If its different from why you love or want this vehicle, you ought not to be offended by my position.

[roy_libran]

^ Hi. Didn't expect you to be back here so soon after "http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian-car-scene/132547-force-gurkha-sale-again-launched-6-25-lakhs-7.html#post3045403". I thought you had bid us adieu for good.

Anyways, a lot of things are actually borrowed from a G-Wagen of some vintage (G46*).
The chassis is of similar proportions and type.
The wheelbase is exactly the same.
The earlier Trax used to come with an OM616, which was a Merc. designed engine, manufactured by FM. The current engine is OM616 derived, and the block is still pretty much the same. It still has the oil shower mechanism as the original Merc engines. After spending all of a summer day off-roading, the temperature hardly crosses 1/3rd of the scale.
It has almost similar articulation as the G (which means that articulation is not that great).
It is different in the rear suspension because the G came with Coils and this comes with Leafs.
The IFS designs are similarly proportioned, but under-engineered than the G.
The transfer case is Puch-Steyr and the Diff Locks are from there too.
The Axle designs are from the G.

Regarding abuse - Yes, this can take a hell of a lot of abuse. And it still takes us home on it's own power at the end of the day.

There are a few things that make this vehicle so good off-road:
1. The weight distribution on the Front and Rear axles. This allows the vehicle to maximize traction in a variety of situations.
2. The Steering assembly allows a very good turning radius. Another big advantage in Off-Roading.
3. I have already spoken about the "GC and Wheelbase combo", the "Low RPM Crawl" etc.
4. The very steep approach and departure angles, if you throw away the rear step.
5. The chassis flex and ability to take torsional stresses.

Regarding power - I recall once rescuing a Safari VX 4x4 that had beached in a rut, up a soft (sandy) incline. The Safari was following a path I had cleared for it through the thicket. Expecting that since the Safari was a heavy beast, it would be a bit tough for the Gurkha to pull it out, I applied a bit more juice than I usually do, and the vehicle literally jumped forward with the Safari getting pulled all the way up that incline. That's kinda enough power for what I love doing.

Cheers...

[gthang]

Originally Posted by Harbir

What are you telling me? Thats a copy but WINK WINK we don't talk about that?

I specifically asked what is the relationship and the one response I got was "no relationship". Nobody else bothered sayng anything in response to me or that answer.

What is the relationship? Is it a copy? a good copy? How faithful a copy?

Query: What is different between an Apple and an Orange?

Solitary response: Nothing. They are both round.

Conclusion: Apples and Oranges are the same. I will continue eating my Peach.

Sound familiar?

Yes, it's a good copy given the cost constraints and manufacturing capabilities.


Cheers

[Mpower]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

Nada, Zilch, Zero. The only thing Gurkha has in common with the older G-Wagen is the basic body line.

Power Train != Gwagen
Chasis != Gwagen
Differentials/Axle != Gwagen

What about the OM616, ZF 5 spd and the rear axle? Doesn't your first statement contradict your second?

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

The Gurkha and G-wagen share the same relationship the Ambassador shares with the Porche 911, i.e They both have round headlights.

Is the statement just for effect? I would say its more like a Beetle to a '74 Prosche 911. Similar architecture but lower performance!

Originally Posted by Harbir

I specifically asked what is the relationship and the one response I got was "no relationship". Nobody else bothered sayng anything in response to me or that answer.

Well looks like you got the wrong answer because there is a relationship. Its a clone, loosely based or a close copy (not a faithful copy) of the first-gen G460 and was done under the blessing of MB (ie no WinkWink!) It even shares several parts!
I would imagine they did this to keep the costs low and make it more suited for Indian applications.

Originally Posted by Harbir

What is the relationship? Is it a copy? a good copy? How faithful a copy? Does it have articulation like A G-wagen? Is its spring and damper tuning similar to a g-wagen? is it robust like a G-wagen? does it have the quality control to take abuse like a g-wagen? Do I get g-wagen grade engineering? overall ability? If not, then what DO I get?

First of all, by no means is the G-wagen the best in the world. The SWB Jeeps are probably better off road but since this is a highly contentious subject, I'd rather not go there.

If you are looking for a vehicle with history/pedigree, then look elsewhere. Forget spring and damper tuning the Trax/Gurkha has a Matador derived IFS !! even though it has similar GC, approach, departure, ramp, wheelbase

Having said that the Gurkha was exported to Europe and has won accolades and awards from a German magazine that tested it. We discussed this years ago. A quick search will take you there.