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Originally Posted by PatchyBoy

T-Jet 207 Nm Torque is at crank. The GB will never see those values.

Ok, but the Fiat 500 Abarth sold in the USA and the 595 Abarth sold in India run with 230 Nm of torque?

What about them?

[adneo]

Originally Posted by PatchyBoy

Here are the gear ratios -

1 - 3.909
2 - 2.238
3 - 1.444
4 - 1.029
5 - 0.795

Final Drive Ratio - 3.733

Also found out the following gear ratios for the Abarth 595 from http://www.supercars.net/cars/5827.html

transmission FPT C510 5-Speed Transmission
gear ratios 3.909:1, 2.238:1, 1.520:1, 1.156:1, 0.872:1
final drive 3.35:1

Interestingly the first and second gears are running the same ratios.

[theredliner]

Here is something I found about the C510 gearbox answered by a Fiat engineer to a question asked by one of the members of a Fiat forum about North American Fiat 500.

Q: This begs a question Chris. The NA Abarth engine has max 230Nm and the C510 shows 206Nm max input torque. Is the C510 being built for us in Italy stronger? I've never heard of a transmission, stock from the factory, with the input torque already exceeded.

Here is my understanding on these transmission figures I posted way back. The figures are a guideline used when selling the transmission to third parties.

As is common in manufacturing a high performance car, the envelop is pushed to achieve higher levels of performance. However, these figures I published two years ago don't really tell the whole story. It is not a clear cut " apply 1 lbs-ft over this amount something is going to break." The figure is a calculated, and includes a test applying the full stated torque over 100,000 miles. With all the testing and abuse we've seen in Europe and in the US, I wouldn't worry about the transmission. You are not going to shear a crown gear by driving the car hard.

Remember, cars with the ATM trans are running 200 hp, the difference is the auto clutch operation uses controlled engagement and takes the shock out of the gearbox. Probably the biggest factor in all this is how YOU drive your modified car.

Abuse systems and everything is out the window.

Source

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Originally Posted by theredliner

Here is something I found about the C510 gearbox answered by a Fiat engineer to a question asked by one of the members of a Fiat forum about North American Fiat 500.

Source

Thanks for pointing that out, even i went over it during my earlier run, but what struck me was globally Fiat has been limiting the torque for all the Tjet C510 combos to 206/7 Nm, the bump in torque is only seen in the Abarth's.

If they wanted the higher torque figures to be coupled with higher Bhps, why would they be selling the Punto Tjet in Brazil with 149Bhp but still 207Nm of torque? Even though the 500 Abarth sells in the same region with 230 Nm of torque?

Also please note in the quoted response, the engineer did highlight the role of the AMT in reducing the stress exerted on the gear box during shifts.

The reason why i started to look into this particular parameter is to figure out what would be a safe zone while pushing the car's performance boundaries.

Many tuner's have come up with maps amounting to 245 Nm of torque.

Incase the Abarth's are running with the vanilla C510 and considering that the Abarth's have the most aggressive tuning setup, is it safe to assume that the torque figure of 230 Nm should be considered as the upper limit for this gear box?

Or is that figure just applicable to the Tjets running with AMTs?

Does that mean that in a manual setup 207 is the safe zone while 211/12 would be the extreme upper limits?

[theredliner]

Originally Posted by adneo

Does that mean that in a manual setup 207 is the safe zone while 211/12 would be the extreme upper limits?

I am not sure if all Puntos use the same gearbox in 5/6 speed setup. If that's the case (and it really seems to be, from whatever I have read today), tuning shouldn't be a problem as I have seen some Punto T-Jets in the past (on youtube) in drag setup making insane 255HP (and rev past 8000 RPM) with bigger turbos, different injectors and some other internal changes with the stock gearbox working fine without any issues according to the owners. The tuner's name is RevLimit.

If all Abarths use the same C510 gearbox, then 206 Nm should be far from the critical limit as Abarth Punto Supersport produces 270Nm torque and uses a stick shifter.

PS Buying a car like this and not being able to tune would be a bummer

[adneo]

Originally Posted by theredliner

I am not sure if all Puntos use the same gearbox in 5/6 speed setup. If that's the case (and it really seems to be, from whatever I have read today), tuning shouldn't be a problem as I have seen some Punto T-Jets in the past (on Youtube) in drag setup making insane 255HP (and rev past 8000 RPM) with bigger turbos, different injectors and some other internal changes with the stock gearbox working fine without any issues according to the owners. The tuner's name is RevLimit.

If all Abarths use the same C510 gearbox, then 206 Nm should be far from the critical limit as Abarth Punto Supersport produces 270Nm torque and uses a stick shifter.

PS Buying a car like this and not being able to tune would be a bummer

That is exactly why i have been taking special note of this parameter, getting this car and not being able to exploit its full potential would be really sad.

On the other hand being able to exploit its full potential should not put us in a spot wherein we have to take the car on a flat bed to the venue, have some fun and again return home on the flat bed.

Tuning should enable us to exploit the full capabilities of the car but not at the expense of cutting down the life of the car drastically.

[theredliner]

Originally Posted by adneo

Tuning should enable us to exploit the full capabilities of the car but not at the expense of cutting down the life of the car drastically.

Doesn't the multijet also use same gearbox, at least here in India? We have numerous Linea and Punto 90HP owners running remaps and tuning boxes here with some maps taking the torque output past 250 Nm. I'm sure many of them would have crossed 50000 km by now.

Considering how Abarth Punto Supersport touches 270Nm, I'm guessing that the gearbox will be pretty much fine, but the overall life would probably reduce by 20-30%. Say 3 lakh km vs 5 lakh if kept below 206 Nm, which again would be fine for most people. I think that is what the Fiat guy meant when he said "As is common in manufacturing a high performance car, the envelop is pushed to achieve higher levels of performance" and "With all the testing and abuse we've seen in Europe and in the US, I wouldn't worry about the transmission. You are not going to shear a crown gear by driving the car hard."

Whatever it is, the safest thing would be to have switchable maps and use the higher states of tune only when needed while being stock all the other times.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Here's a small comparison of the gear ratios. 90 hp diesel as everyone has a problem with the gear ratios of the diesel Punto, Swift diesel which is said to be a lot faster than the Punto thanks to gear ratios, and the Punto Abarth as per PatchyBoy's post above -


90hp MJD | Swift 75hp DDiS | Punto Abarth
1st | 4.273 | 3.545 | 3.909
2nd | 2.238 | 1.904 | 2.238
3rd | 1.444 | 1.233 | 1.444
4th | 1.029 | 0.911 | 1.029
5th | 0.767 | 0.725 | 0.795

If Punto Abarth uses the same ratios as the Linea TJet, then people should be a lot happier as compared to the MJD Punto users who cry about the extremely short first gear and a huge gap with the second kill killing the start.

I believe none of the linea TJet users had the same complaint.

[sandeepmohan]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

I believe none of the linea TJet users had the same complaint.

I do find 1st short on the T Jet. A slight dab on the throttle is enough to spike the rpm to 2000 and there is a immediate need to shift to second. I've not explored too much here but I believe 2nd takes you just shy of the ton. 1st almost acts like a crawler gear on the T Jet. You get moving with zero throttle input and it will stay that way as long as you want.

On a different note, I am surprised that the unpublished brochure/presentation talks about economy for an Abarth. Does anyone really care about this?

[PatchyBoy]

Originally Posted by sandeepmohan

I do find 1st short on the T Jet. A slight dab on the throttle is enough to spike the rpm to 2000 and there is a immediate need to shift to second. I've not explored too much here but I believe 2nd takes you just shy of the ton.

The T-Jet redlined in each gear does approximately:

1st: 55 kmph
2nd: 96 kmph
3th: 137 kmph
4th: 165 kmph
5th: 205 kmph

PS: Did not redline in fifth and that is theoretical. Did not have enough guts

EDIT - Speeds shown above are GPS and not Speedo indicated.

[im_srini]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Here's a small comparison of the gear ratios.

Originally Posted by sandeepmohan

I do find 1st short on the T Jet.

Many thanks for the data, but I think it would make more sense to add the final drive ratio also.
In any case, just graphing out the ratios :

Secondary Y-Axis is the percentage of the previous gear that the current gear is.
Looking at the graph, it would seem that there isn't much between the three transmissions ( in terms of ratios that is ).
.

[deepakhon]

Second is good for about 95 kph. I rev it every time to the red line after I pay the toll at NICE road-Kanakapura Road, since I get a good straight line.

[RavenAvi]

Official teaser poster released on home page:

(Click on the image to open in a *NEW* window)

Fiat India

[asivan]

Originally Posted by RavenAvi

Official teaser poster released on home page:

[/center]

Seems like the wheel arches are filled up much better according to this image doesn't it? Certainly seems lower than the pictures we saw when the car was at BIC.

[Rubbertramps]

Originally Posted by RavenAvi

Official teaser poster released on home page:

Fiat India

The roof, bonnet and the fog lamp housing gets the additional stickers. The wheel well seems to be low. But it could have been reduced just for the pics too. I hope the stickers on the fog lamp housing does not come out that easy.

The below image is the regular punto. The wheel arches here are a little higher. So the picture is a close to match to reality ! But the back wheel arch seems to be the same in both cars !