[prakash_ajp]

Originally Posted by nainan

The "premium" 5 seater does not have a market in India as per sales data. Please see the Tucson and Compass sales which both combined give you roughly under 2000 units per month and numbers are shrinking every month. The Creta sells 10000 plus consistently. I have previously provided an analysis again based on publicly available Tata statements which point to the Tata targets for the Harrier being 5000-10000 units per month. So the pricing has to be more Creta oriented than Compass.

I agree with your points in general. But just two aspects where I see it differently.


1. Just because we don't have a market now for such a car in such a price bracket (as I mentioned earlier, I will stick to the price bracket of 13-19L), doesn't mean there won't be takers in future. For e.g., we don't really know how many of the XUV customers are buying it just because there's no alternate butch looking SUV in that range. How many of the Creta's top variant's customers will find the Harrier too good to resist even if that means going for the lower variant? And of course, the Jeep and Tuscon customers who will find something similar at a lower price. I am guessing there would be quite a few.


2. If Tata are expecting 5000 to 1000 number of this car to be sold, that's wishful thinking. Surely, with a more expensive car, they can't hope to sell double the number as the Nexon. I would say around 3 to 4,000 sounds reasonable.

[srishiva]

When Tata says its using a heavily modified architecture, do they still have to use the pedigree part as a major point ?
They should start at a lower price point and maybe keep the higher range as is. But then without sunroof how will they differentiate the higher range

[Waspune]

Originally Posted by AbhiJ

you conveniently forget that Tata is not using its own Engine or Automatic gearbox. These will raise costs over in house produced components, i am guessing.

Priced from 16 till 21 lacs ONR doesn't make it expensive per se IMO. The Creta(1.6 crdi) and XUV both start at a similar price range.

Originally Posted by nainan

The "premium" 5 seater does not have a market in India as per sales data. Please see the Tucson and Compass sales which both combined give you roughly under 2000 units per month and numbers are shrinking every month.

The way I see it, Harrier will lock horns with the Compass as well and would undercut the same by 4 lacs variant on variant. Also as other BHPians opined you can't expect sales to be huge for a D-segment product. You have your margins accordingly. Lets call Toyota an exception.
If Harrier is able to sell at least half of what compass is selling I don't see it as a flop car.

[nainan]

Originally Posted by AbhiJ

Alright.. Couple of things...

Creta price range is goes upto 15 lac ex showroom and it is a 5 seater. And yet market for 5 seater SUV doesnt exist? Once the creta converts to 7 seater (2020 easy since they just refreshed the model) , these people who are happy with 5 seats will dissappear.

If only 7 seats were a criteria, the BRV and ertiga would have stolen Creta sales.

What you are expecting from Tata is fantastic from a consumer point of view, however might be a tough ask. Gold contacts aside, you conveniently forget that Tata is not using its own Engine or Automatic gearbox. These will raise costs over in house produced components, i am guessing.

The hexa is a commercial failure. Its a capable vehicle which should havr dented Innova sales due to its lower prices but it didnt. I have test driven and not bought the car. The MUV look is a big contributor to that in my opinion. If they make a cheaper Hexa, it still won't set the sales charts on fire. They need the car to be desirable. They need the interiors to reek of quality. They need niggle free reliability. I for one will gladly pay extra for the last 3 points i mentioned.

I am only saying the premium 5 seater market does not exist(20 lakh plus). There is a high volume 5 seater market where the Creta flourishes and before it the Duster had its run. I was merely saying that's the 5 seater market a Tata needs to tap to get to the numbers which they want as per sales data.

The Creta is going 7 seats but not discontinuing the 5 seat options either. It would be stupid of Hyundai to do so.

The 7 seat market exists not in as much volume and right now only the Crysta and the XUV sell. Hyundai is trying to break into that segment with 2 7 seaters, Mahindra is trying to consolidate their position in the segment with what they can launch in the shortest time namely the Rexton G4 while Tata seems to be waiting and watching for what I do not know.

Interesting that you talk about the engine and the automatic gearbox as even in the Hexa these were done by AVL based on the Peugeot DW 12 engine and Punch powerglide based on 6L50 gearbox respectively and both are decent units so its not something new they are doing with the Harrier.

Yes on the Hexa and the Harrier does not suffer from the looks problem so desirability is already better and with a 90% automated manufacturing fit, finish and quality will definitely be better. Given the low labour cost and the robotics leveraged from JLR I expect the cost to be more efficient and expect it to reflect in the pricing.

Originally Posted by prakash_ajp

1. Just because we don't have a market now for such a car in such a price bracket (as I mentioned earlier, I will stick to the price bracket of 13-19L), doesn't mean there won't be takers in future.

Precisely I dont expect them to hold at this price only to start and build some momentum in an existing market and then launch more premium variants with premium pricing once they have momentum

2. If Tata are expecting 5000 to 1000 number of this car to be sold, that's wishful thinking. Surely, with a more expensive car, they can't hope to sell double the number as the Nexon.

Not really the Innova enjoys more success than the Etios because of their product and positioning in the market so Tata's expectation is not far fetched. And I expect a positive response to the Harrier also helping Nexon sales as those who are hesitant to buy due to brand will respond positively when the brand placement improves.

Originally Posted by Waspune

If Harrier is able to sell at least half of what compass is selling I don't see it as a flop car.

I believe from Tata statements in the past that they expect sales between 5000-10000, the analysis is in one of my older posts. So it might look like a success to you but might be way below the target they are going after.

[samaspire]

I think TATA has found the best way to overprice the Harrier



Toyota Harrier

This came in my Google Feed.

[motorworks]

Originally Posted by nainan

I am only saying the premium 5 seater market does not exist(20 lakh plus). There is a high volume 5 seater market where the Creta flourishes and before it the Duster had its run. I was merely saying that's the 5 seater market a Tata needs to tap to get to the numbers which they want as per sales data.



I believe from Tata statements in the past that they expect sales between 5000-10000, the analysis is in one of my older posts. So it might look like a success to you but might be way below the target they are going after.

The price range of the Tata Harrier has been announced at 16-21 Lakhs on road, right?
I have said this numerous times, the Creta 1.6 Diesel costs nearly 16.7 Lakhs on road as of now. And this is the first variant of the 1.6 diesel. The other variants of the Creta 1.6 are between 17-19 Lakhs. Hyundai has managed an AT at 16.7 Lakhs though, which is the lowest trim -S.

So the Creta is nearly in the same territory as the Harrier. Biggest difference in the Harrier is the lack of entry level variants, known as the E and E+ in the Creta, which are anyway barebones.

And similarly, even a Honda City goes up to 17-18 Lakhs on road now. So do you not think people who are likely buy the Honda City or the Creta at 17-19 Lakhs will consider the Harrier?

The Compass is a pretty bad example for citing volumes in this segment. On road prices start at 20 Lakhs for the diesel and its quite basic, no ACC and Alloys etc. and plus Jeep has far lower reach than Tata.

Harrier ends where Compass begins and there is a significant overlap in prices with the Creta.

So lets wait and watch what kind of numbers the Harrier will achieve in the long run rather than constantly stating that the Harrier cannot generate volumes. May be Tata has a target of 3.5k- 4K monthly to start with. And that is not bad at all.

[nainan]

Originally Posted by motorworks

The price range of the Tata Harrier has been announced at 16-21 Lakhs on road, right?

There is a pricing leak not a price announcement which Tata has maintained will happen in Jan 2019.

And similarly, even a Honda City goes up to 17-18 Lakhs on road now. So do you not think people who are likely buy the Honda City or the Creta at 17-19 Lakhs will consider the Harrier?

Firstly I used ex showroom prices you talk about OTR prices.

Now the city too has 2500 odd customers per month with the segment leader in C class sedans being the Ciaz. As those people are not gravitating to the Creta I find no incentive for them to go to the Harrier.

I expect the Creta crowd to consider the Harrier and am merely suggesting a price to attract a Hyundai customer to a Tata vehicle. Not a lot of people buy bare bones variants but their importance lies in convincing/attracting customers to consider the car in the first place.

The Compass is a pretty bad example for citing volumes in this segment. On road prices start at 20 Lakhs for the diesel and its quite basic, no ACC and Alloys etc. and plus Jeep has far lower reach than Tata.

I agree that's why I say that part of the market does not exist in sufficient volumes and arguments comparing it with the Compass pricing are moot.

So lets wait and watch what kind of numbers the Harrier will achieve in the long run rather than constantly stating that the Harrier cannot generate volumes. May be Tata has a target of 3.5k- 4K monthly to start with. And that is not bad at all.

I never stated the Harrier cannot generate volumes at all rather what pricing will get them to their target volumes so please do not misquote me. As for posting as I said before I come here to discuss, analyse and learn so will continue posting. You can choose to ignore and move on if it does not add value to you.

[abhishek46]

Originally Posted by motorworks

I have said this numerous times, the Creta 1.6 Diesel costs nearly 16.7 Lakhs on road as of now. And this is the first variant of the 1.6 diesel. The other variants of the Creta 1.6 are between 17-19 Lakhs. Hyundai has managed an AT at 16.7 Lakhs though, which is the lowest trim -S.

So the Creta is nearly in the same territory as the Harrier. Biggest difference in the Harrier is the lack of entry level variants, known as the E and E+ in the Creta, which are anyway barebones.

And similarly, even a Honda City goes up to 17-18 Lakhs on road now. So do you not think people who are likely buy the Honda City or the Creta at 17-19 Lakhs will consider the Harrier?

The Creta Diesel starts from Rs 13 lakh ex-showroom and goes on till Rs 15.2 Lakh for the top end diesel.

Whereas, the Harrier is being rumored to to start from Rs 16 lakh!

The rumored prices doesn't appear to be overlapping, in my opinion.

[AbhiJ]

Originally Posted by nainan

Given the low labour cost and the robotics leveraged from JLR I expect the cost to be more efficient and expect it to reflect in the pricing.

Very sorry to say, that your expectations are not in-line with mine.

Even if the 4WD, 5 Seater Harrier is offered with a 2 litre diesel engine and an automatic gearbox at 20 Lacs, it is at a 20% discount over the price of the Tuscon, which is a similarly sized, similarly specked car. (The Tuscon is a brilliant underrated car in my opinion).

I personally hope TATA prices is at indicated prices but no corners are cut in manufacturing and QC is upto standards. If so, I for one will be putting my money where my mouth is.

[Strangerintown]

Originally Posted by nainan

There is a pricing leak not a price announcement which Tata has maintained will happen in Jan 2019.

.

I wouldn't really call it a leak as it has come formally from Tata Morors. Probably a price indication would be a better description. While it is by no means the final price, it probably has more authenticity than a "leak" would suggest.

Originally Posted by abhishek46

The Creta Diesel starts from Rs 13 lakh ex-showroom and goes on till Rs 15.2 Lakh for the top end diesel.

Whereas, the Harrier is being rumored to to start from Rs 16 lakh!

The rumored prices doesn't appear to be overlapping, in my opinion.

The difference is probably down to the fact that you are comparing ex-showroom prices of the Creta to the indicative on-road prices of the Harrier.

[abhishek46]

Originally Posted by Strangerintown

The difference is probably down to the fact that you are comparing ex-showroom prices of the Creta to the indicative on-road prices of the Harrier.

Thanks.
I stand corrected. I presumed the prices to be Ex-showroom.

The ACI link says On-Road.
https://www.autocarindia.com/car-new...to-know-410297

Citing a leaked internal communication document of Tata Motors, we had revealed that the on-road prices of the hotly anticipated Harrier will be in the range of Rs 16-21 lakh.

[nainan]

Originally Posted by AbhiJ

Very sorry to say, that your expectations are not in-line with mine.

Even if the 4WD, 5 Seater Harrier is offered with a 2 litre diesel engine and an automatic gearbox at 20 Lacs, it is at a 20% discount over the price of the Tuscon, which is a similarly sized, similarly specked car.

Agreed we differ in our expectations but the Tucson 5 seater is having just 50% localization and 42 bhp more of power on tap and well 40Nm more of torque. Its selling 200 units a month and Hyundai plan to make it a 7 seater in the next iteration. So even if I were to compare it to the Tucson which by volumes simply is not worth it a 20% discount will hardly cover the difference in power and torque.

But then I understand you have your opinion of the pricing and I have mine so let me agree to disagree.

[AbhiJ]

Originally Posted by nainan

Interesting that you talk about the engine and the automatic gearbox as even in the Hexa these were done by AVL based on the Peugeot DW 12 engine and Punch powerglide based on 6L50 gearbox respectively and both are decent units so its not something new they are doing with the Harrier.

As per my information The Engine in the Hexa is not sourced from AVL, only developed with their assistance. I might be wrong, please correct me if I am.

Originally Posted by nainan

simply is not worth it a 20% discount will hardly cover the difference in power and torque.
.

Engine Power is not proportional to price at least in the Indian market.

[Arjun Reddy]

Originally Posted by nainan

So even if I were to compare it to the Tucson which by volumes simply is not worth it a 20% discount will hardly cover the difference in power and torque.

Honestly, Power and Torque cannot be equated to the pricing of a vehicle. If this is what you mean by you statement.

The Tiguan is a further 7 lakhs OTR costlier than the Tucson for the same 140bhp that the Harrier would make.

How about a ₹20k Race Dynamics piggy bank ECU to bump the Power and Torque up to around 180 bhp and 400 nm? This should surely cheer you up.

[nainan]

Originally Posted by AbhiJ

As per my information The Engine in the Hexa is not sourced from AVL, only developed with their assistance. I might be wrong, please correct me if I am.


Engine Power is not proportional to price at least in the Indian market.

The information is from the Safari page which shares both the 2.2 & Varicor engine.

Tata Safari

Yes but then what is, brand perception, ASS, customer satisfaction, fit and finish which I do not think Tata commands as much as Hyundai in any segment they compete in with similar products.

Originally Posted by Arjun Reddy

Honestly, Power and Torque cannot be equated to the pricing of a vehicle. If this is what you mean by you statement.

The Tiguan is a further 7 lakhs OTR costlier than the Tucson for the same 140bhp that the Harrier would make.

How about a ₹20k Race Dynamics piggy bank ECU to bump the Power and Torque up to around 180 bhp and 400 nm? This should surely cheer you up.

I appreciate your first statement and I have responded to it above but especially for you let me ask again does adding a cost optimised(read different materials) Land Rover core structural member entail a premium because in all other things that have been publicly released by Tata this does not significantly differ from their non premium SUVs.

I will disregard the rest as I do not see value in either example. If you honestly want to understand my perspective please do not see the last post in isolation else please skip the sarcasm.