[Seran Manian]

Originally Posted by amalji

I too buy a car for 10 years ( not the normal 5 year EMI period ) and cars from Japanese manufacturers like Toyota are easily capable of lasting that long.

Verna will give you high maintenance cost post 60 to 80 k.
Scala should last long thanks to that excellent engine. Only negative are the brakes and high speed stability.
Ford Fiesta is an excellent buy as far as most of the parameters are concerned. With regards to durability, American cars do not have good reputation though.
Amaze would be another good option as well. The diesel engine is not tested as good as the Toyota D-4D or the Renault ones, but, it should be a safe bet considering that it's coming from Honda. The only negative is that it's not as spacious as the Etios. So, if you are ok with it, it should be a good buy as well.

Thanks again for the comments...
I sure will come back to the forum with my choice list at that time and would very much appreciate the suggestions of members like you...

[amalji]

Hydraulic Mounts tested on old Model Liva Diesel

Yesterday, my friend replaced the engine mount on his Liva Diesel with hydraulic mounts.
Total cost - 3,600/- ( out of which around 350 was for labour )

Spare part is genuine Toyota spare which is used on the 2013 facelift model of Etios and Liva
Work was done from Nippon Toyota, Kalamassery, Cochin.

Initial Feeling

• Right after the replacement, we started the engine, and could feel a reduction in shake of the engine ( while starting ). The same was felt even while switching off the engine
• Noise control was still not as good as the new facelift model
• After driving a few kms, the engine felt more silent than my Etios ( which has a rubber engine mount ) but still not good as the facelift model.

For validating the 'feeling' we noticed, we took both the cars to a sound engineer who specializes on doing sound damping for halls and theaters. The sound testing was done at the following conditions.

• Both of us warmed up our engines and ensured that the coolant temperature was in the range of 83 to 84 degree celsius on both cars ( We measured it using ELM327 OBD2 bluetooth adapter and android app combo )
• Fan and AC was turned off
• A comparatively silent location was chosen
• Engine was left to idle without any accelerator input.
• Sound was measured using a professional measurement equipment by the sound engineer

Test results

Noise detected on my Etios Diesel with Rubber mounts - 82.5 dB
Noise detected on my friend's Liva Diesel with Hydraulic mounts - 80.5 dB

2 dB difference translates to almost 30% improvement in sound pressure was what he told. He also mentioned that the ideal time to do such tests would be in the night time, when there is absolute silence. Even though he did the test in day time, he did the test in such a way that the perceived noise from surrounding was almost NIL.

Other factors that might affect the noise.

+ means will only have a positive effect on our findings.

- means could have a negative effect.

• My Etios covered 32,000 kms while his Liva covered only 14,000 kms. ( - )
• My Etios is 1.5 years old while his Liva is 1.2 years old. ( - )
• I use synthetic oil on my Etios while he uses mineral oil ( + )
• I have films sticked on all windows, windshield and rear glass while the Liva doesn't have any of it. ( + )
• My Etios has run 2,000 kms since last oil change while the Liva has run 4,000 kms since oil change ( + )

I'm still not 100% sure as to whether it's the rubber mounts that's the reason for the higher noise on my car. Anyway, I did notice an improvement in NVH on his Liva compared to mine. My friend - Vinu says he did feel the improvement on his car as well. He did not tell about the engine mount upgrade to his father. But, his father could still feel that the engine became more silent.

Plan of Action

Seeing the performance, I've ordered a hydraulic mount for my car as well. Will see how it affects the NVH and will post the details later.

[automachine]

Amalji, Are you sure the previous model Etios rubber engine mounts can be replaced by the hydraulic mounts? I just happen to give my car for regular service interval @30K ( I am yet to write a review on that) and I specifically asked the service advisor whether I can do this upgrade. He replied that it cannot be done since the mounting space is different and the engine height would also get affected. Even though I could not digest that still I did not argue further. Please let me know if you have already talked to service center on this aspect. I too would consider mount replacement. Also regarding NVH, I think the 2013 facelift etios does have some additional noise insulation on firewall though I could not be sure from my inspection of the car in showroom.

[RadiantKarma]

^
^^
I was also told during my recent service that the engine mount cannot be replaced. Will need to follow up again. amalji, I hope the engine mount replacement done by your friend has explicit Toyota approval.

[Sankar]

Originally Posted by amalji

Plan of Action

Seeing the performance, I've ordered a hydraulic mount for my car as well. Will see how it affects the NVH and will post the details later.

Can you post few comparison pics of Etios' regular and hydraulic engine mounts when you get this done on your car? Take the pics when both are outside the engine bay so that we can get an idea of the actual dimensions of the mount as some members posted.

[amalji]

Originally Posted by automachine

Amalji, Are you sure the previous model Etios rubber engine mounts can be replaced by the hydraulic mounts?

Yes, for 2 reasons.

• The service lead at Nippon Toyota Kalamassery checked the mounts and found no logical reason why it should not be compatible with the old model.
• Rubber to hydraulic engine mount conversion is done on many old model cars. Even the reverse is done sometimes.

Originally Posted by automachine

He replied that it cannot be done since the mounting space is different and the engine height would also get affected.

• Mounting space is not different.
• Engine height doesn't change as well

I got these confirmation from the team lead of service in Nippon Toyota, Kalamassery. But, I would recommend not to get it done, unless your SA is confident of doing it.

Originally Posted by automachine

Also regarding NVH, I think the 2013 facelift etios does have some additional noise insulation on firewall though I could not be sure from my inspection of the car in showroom.

Yes it does have it. Check out my post on http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ml#post3062573
and see the last image. They have covered all the exposed metals in there with sound damping material.

Originally Posted by RadiantKarma

^
amalji, I hope the engine mount replacement done by your friend has explicit Toyota approval.

Don't think Toyota would approve such a mod because they designed the mounts for the newer models and not for the old model.

Originally Posted by Sankar

Can you post few comparison pics of Etios' regular and hydraulic engine mounts when you get this done on your car? Take the pics when both are outside the engine bay so that we can get an idea of the actual dimensions of the mount as some members posted.

Sure, will do.

[Mohanan]

Amalji,

Do you know how long the Hydraulic mount work took on your friends car? Since Nippon has worked on this replacement I do not mind driving down to Kerala. You have been lucky to get such detailed information and clarity on the product and technology from the Service Heads. My experience with Nandi Toyota,Bangalore has been at sub par levels. I feel they survive only because the vehicle is well engineered and solidly built. Skill and the level of technical knowledge is very very poor here. Even though I try to kick up some technical discussions with the SA's in Nandi Toyota they are often clueless and wear a blank expression. I end up dropping the discussion there itself.

I spoke with a few people @ Toyota and they are not even sure people in some part of our country have already changed to Hydraulic mounts. If I persuade and force them to do this change over it would definitely be a shoddy job!

How is your change over coming on, is the job complete?

[amalji]

Originally Posted by Mohanan

Amalji,
Do you know how long the Hydraulic mount work took on your friends car?

It took around 5 hours for him. But, that was because it was done for the first time ever on Nippon. Post replacement, the service lead at Nippon Toyota told me that this is just a 2 hours labour.

Originally Posted by Mohanan

Since Nippon has worked on this replacement I do not mind driving down to Kerala. You have been lucky to get such detailed information and clarity on the product and technology from the Service Heads. My experience with Nandi Toyota,Bangalore has been at sub par levels. I feel they survive only because the vehicle is well engineered and solidly built. Skill and the level of technical knowledge is very very poor here. Even though I try to kick up some technical discussions with the SA's in Nandi Toyota they are often clueless and wear a blank expression. I end up dropping the discussion there itself.

There are 2 aspects which worked in our favor.

• The customer & my friend - Vinu gave them the confidence by letting the service lead know that in case, it's not possible for them to replace the rubber with hydraulic mount, he'll bear the loss ( for both the spare part cost and labour ). Vinu was very sure that Toyota wouldn't make any other major changes with regards to height etc because that would mean a lot of other parts needs to change position as well ( implies more cost ). Knowing Toyota's strict adherence to systems and change management, he put the bet on Toyota that they wouldn't make any major changes with it.
• The service lead at Nippon Toyota, Kalamassery - Vinod is genuinely passionate about the technical aspects of the car and he knows what he is doing. And more importantly, he is a good listener. Instead of blindly turning us away, he listened to what all we had to say and was sincere in giving a logical and honest solution.

Originally Posted by Mohanan

How is your change over coming on, is the job complete?

My hydraulic mounts have not arrived. The order is still in pending status. If you plan to do it from Nippon, I would recommend that you call them and fix up an appointment. They would need to order the part first ( based on your request ).

[Sawyer]

Amalji, very informative thread, thank you.

In a few months I am looking for a petrol sedan that will last me for ten years, and I am looking at the Etios. Just a few questions, if you will take the time:

1. Are the seats made to last - are they hard wearing enough as well as comfortable, and don't sag etc.?
2. Body/panel rattles - any issues? Or does everything still feel well screwed together after some years/some multiples of ten thousand kms?
3. In summary, are these non essential items also blessed with Toyota quality and longevity?
4. Does the AC cool the entire car well in summers?

I have most of my other questions answered from your thread and other places, I would appreciate if you could complete the picture for me by answers to the above.

Thanks in advance.

[amalji]

Originally Posted by amalji

My hydraulic mounts have not arrived.

Just got a call from Nippon Toyota, Kalamassery that my mounts have arrived. He asked for the preferred time. They had vacant service slots from 8th onwards. I opted for 9th morning 9am. Eagerly waiting for my chance to extensively test out the hydraulic mounts.

Originally Posted by Sawyer

1. Are the seats made to last - are they hard wearing enough as well as comfortable, and don't sag etc.?

The seats will last, no problem. On the old Etios model, the front seats offered very good back support while the rear ones are a bit on the softer side. Softer seats implies better comfort for short to medium trips but lack of back support will be felt on long trips.

On the newer Etios facelift, both of these have been improved. The front seats became even better and the rear seats became more stiff as well.

Originally Posted by Sawyer

2. Body/panel rattles - any issues? Or does everything still feel well screwed together after some years/some multiples of ten thousand kms?

There was a known bug with the airbag side rattle. But, that was fixed by Toyota and it never recurred.

Originally Posted by Sawyer

3. In summary, are these non essential items also blessed with Toyota quality and longevity?

Most design cues inside the Etios is in adherance with practicality and durability. Aesthetics is given the last priority on most design elements.

Originally Posted by Sawyer

4. Does the AC cool the entire car well in summers?

It does cool well, thanks to the well placed centre AC vents. This design ensures that

• it doesn't get blocked by the hands placed on steering.
• Also doesn't cause discomfort to the hands of the driver when you put the ac on full cold mode.

Practical design again.

[Sawyer]

Originally Posted by amalji

Practical design again.

Thanks for those confirmations. It looks like a good practical choice then, I want a fuss free car for the next ten year. Petrol is fine for my needs of 7000 or so km a year of running.

[Mohanan]

Originally Posted by amalji

Just got a call from Nippon Toyota, Kalamassery that my mounts have arrived. He asked for the preferred time. They had vacant service slots from 8th onwards. I opted for 9th morning 9am. Eagerly waiting for my chance to extensively test out the hydraulic mounts.

Good luck with the mount change! Finally had a chance to speak to someone knowledgeable at Nandi Toyota. He said the engine mounts have been changed on the MD's Etios. It is just one side's mount that has been changed in the new ETIOS. Could you confirm that? Start/Stop engine vibrations have been flattened out but not much reduction of noise on the driving front.

Also, the firewall insulation change is available. Rs 3800 for the insulation material and plus a good amount for labor as it involves stripping the engine bay completely.

[amalji]

Originally Posted by Mohanan

Finally had a chance to speak to someone knowledgeable at Nandi Toyota. He said the engine mounts have been changed on the MD's Etios. It is just one side's mount that has been changed in the new ETIOS. Could you confirm that?

Yes, this is correct.

Originally Posted by Mohanan

Start/Stop engine vibrations have been flattened out but not much reduction of noise on the driving front.

Yes, the major difference will be felt when you start/stop the engine. Regarding noise, as mentioned earlier, once the engine is warmed up, it does feel more silent than what it was even though the difference is not as noticeable as the facelift version Etios ( where even damping material is given in addition ).

Originally Posted by Mohanan

Also, the firewall insulation change is available. Rs 3800 for the insulation material and plus a good amount for labor as it involves stripping the engine bay completely.

I'm concerned about the whole process because as you said, it involves stripping down everything. As an alternative method, I suggested Nippon Toyota, Kalamassery to

• Get the new damping material spare.
• Cut it, so that the old shape ( the shape of the damping material used on the older etios ) is no longer present.
• Fix it and find a way to join it with the old dampener.

If we do it this way, we don't need to go through the process of stripping all the parts in the engine bay. The service head is concerned about the perfection in joining the 2 different parts, when we do it this way. I told him, I'm ok to make my car an experimental material regardless of what we achieve in the end.

He said, he will research more on it and will let me know on that.

Originally Posted by Mohanan

Good luck with the mount change!

Did the replacement today. Feels good. Will get back with more updates soon.

There is also a parts upgrade campaign from Toyota to replace the transmission drain plug with a newer design ( one with a spring loaded washer ).

I talked with the service head as to what is the advantage with having this new design. He mentioned that if the under body of the car hits some rocks ( and hits it in the transmission area ), then there is a slight probability that the normal washer design could cause a transmission fluid leak. The spring loaded washer on the new drain plug prevents such occurrences. The work ( including the transmission fluid replacement ) was done under warranty for free.

Thank you, Toyota for being proactive with these changes.

[Mohanan]

Originally Posted by amalji

Yes, this is correct.

I'm concerned about the whole process because as you said, it involves stripping down everything. As an alternative method, I suggested Nippon Toyota, Kalamassery to

• Get the new damping material spare.
• Cut it, so that the old shape ( the shape of the damping material used on the older etios ) is no longer present.
• Fix it and find a way to join it with the old dampener.

If we do it this way, we don't need to go through the process of stripping all the parts in the engine bay. The service head is concerned about the perfection in joining the 2 different parts, when we do it this way. I told him, I'm ok to make my car an experimental material regardless of what we achieve in the end.

Sorry, I don't follow you. Anything to be done on the firewall, you will have to move the machinery out of the hands way. That is why stripping is required. I am not sure they can do the firewall insulation with the car on the ramp.


Anyways congrats on the mount change- and as usual I will wait to hear more on this . Let me know the difference. Thankfully in Bangalore the parts being manufactured locally translates to a 1 day advance notice I need to give Toyota for the parts.

[amalji]

Originally Posted by Mohanan

Sorry, I don't follow you. Anything to be done on the firewall, you will have to move the machinery out of the hands way. That is why stripping is required. I am not sure they can do the firewall insulation with the car on the ramp.

On the new Etios, the damping material from the firewall region extends to the top right part of the engine bay. The extension to the top right part ( below the wiper ) is what is missing on the old Etios. This is what we observed with the naked eye. There doesn't seem to a quality difference as such with the materials used. I'll show it with pictures later.

So, what we plan to do is to cut out this difference, fix it and then find a way to join it with the damping material used on the firewall side.