[VellVector]

Originally Posted by Sip

Is it fair for you to exonerate TOT for this delay on others behalf?

I don't think he was trying to exonerate ToT as much as try to emphasize that you have made certain assumptions and allegations about a store (ToT) without any evidence or direct interaction with the store yourself (I may be wrong about this, please correct me if I am).

Originally Posted by Sip

...beached the trust by deceitful encryption and failure to honour earlier commitment.......

......devoid of requisite expertise for S-Cross......

Could you please give us some insight into how you have directly found this store to be a deceitful establishment and devoid of requisite expertise?

I have never used or seen ToT so the above points may be true but I think the point Nikhil was trying to make is that it is very easy to point a finger without having any interaction with the store whatsoever.

[ecenandu]

Originally Posted by Dr.Naren

found a better tuner now..

Not yet, buddy. Too early to call that, don't you think.

Your rating are binary, eh. Good or bad, I mean nothing wrong with that, its your prerogative. Just made a casual observation having seen your past experiences with various tuners.

[Dr.Naren]

Originally Posted by ecenandu

Not yet, buddy. Too early to call that, don't you think.

Your rating are binary, eh. Good or bad, I mean nothing wrong in that its your prerogative. Just made an casual observation having seen your past experiences with various tuners.

I understand and do respect your observation . You can always expect impartial honest feedback from me after I try out the new tuner. I believe in calling spade a spade.

Cheers!!

[ecenandu]

Originally Posted by Dr.Naren

calling spade a spade.
Cheers!!

So will you suggest ToT for fellow SX4 and i10 diesel owners since you got what you have asked for those remaps?

[Dr.Naren]

Originally Posted by ecenandu

So will you suggest ToT for fellow SX4 and i10 diesel owners since you got what you have asked for those remaps?

For Grand I10 : I have tried Code 6, RD Box and TOT

Yes, I would suggest TOT in this case. But, they do not have EGR soft delete available for this car too. If the customer is particular about it, he can check with other tuners.

For SX4 : I have tried Pete's, Wolf and TOT

TOT remap has the best 0-100 timing, but it smokes a lot. Also this is not a problem, as it could be corrected by reducing fuelling.

And ya Wolf remaps are really good too for 1.3 MJD engines. Remember Rajiv is not just a file writer, he can even do ECU recoding for few cars and give switchable maps. But for SX4, he couldn't give me switchable maps at that point due to some difficulties. Then he had gone back to his work at ship. I had some minor problems with the map later and had gone with TOT. The car is running fine except too much of black smoke. I have heard that Rajiv is back to India now and if he could provide switchable maps for SX4 now, I would consider going back to Wolf

[Sip]

Originally Posted by VellVector

Could you please give us some insight into how you have directly found this store to be a deceitful establishment and devoid of requisite expertise?

I have never used or seen ToT so the above points may be true but I think the point Nikhil was trying to make is that it is very easy to point a finger without having any interaction with the store whatsoever.

Hi VellVector!

Though I don't want to prolong this discussion further, but I needed to clarify couple of things as asked by you.

Firstly I never declared the whole establishment as deceitful, the word 'deceitful' is confined to the encryption of particular file which I perceived intended denial. I might be wrong here.

Secondly, regarding 'requisite expertise', Dr.Naren has interacted with them extensively and opined that they either didn't have right equipment to work on S-Cross or didn't figure out right method. This is sort of customer feedback expressed for particular time and I am not knowing as on today they are the best tuners for S-Cross or not.

Lastly Nikhil was right to an extent and I have accepted criticism.

[dextertuned]

“Insufficient facts always invite danger.” - Star Trek

Hi Guys,

Guess we've come a long journey treading on this thread eh? Since there is only one-side of the perspective floating around, I would like to share my perspective since I have got a couple of cars done through TOT (Figo, Vento, S-Cross, Laura 1.8TSI)
Maybe that'll help clear some air.

Originally Posted by Sip

I really detest how badly TOT has handled the ECU, beached the trust by deceitful encryption and failure to honour earlier commitment of lifetime support. They seems to be devoid of requisite expertise for S-Cross.

I don't think it means what you think it means. As per my experience, TOT has gone out of their way to honour commitments for lifetime support, most of the time even paying from their own pockets. As was the case when I was in Kolkata and needed a minor fix on my 1.8 TSI.

Blaming and accusing of non-commitment is taking it to some other level.

Originally Posted by Dr.Naren

I did not get any response for many days (say weeks). After that my calls were unanswered / no reply to messages.

I am already exploring other options now. I will get a remap from any other tuner who has working protocol for 1.6 S-Cross ( easy to customise maps), EGR delete and little more powerful.

Hey Naren, sorry to hear about this issue you are facing. I remember meeting you sometime back, when you had your S-Cross at ADIGA motors. TOT team was there. Why didn't you bring up the issue that time? I'm sure you would've got an immediate solution.

Originally Posted by Dr.Naren

It's been almost 6 months post remap and 2 main things : EGR delete and working protocol is not yet done. Also, I have not got any updates regarding tweaked map post downpipe mod.

But I need to find a tuner who has proper support for 1.6 S-Cross. As I said, I am already exploring other options and not going back to TOT for 1.6 S-Cross.

While its true that some protocols were cracked a couple of months back, more and more parameters for tuning the S-Cross ECU is opening up on a monthly basis. When I was looking to get my S-Cross ECU tuned, only a handful of parameters could be tweaked, and that was confirmed by Alientech. I'm happy that you are exploring other options. More power to the consumer... I guess! Good luck.

Originally Posted by Nikhilb2008

.... Probably, they are not ready to tweak it further? Or maybe, they consider that as coming under a paid service? It could be that they assume you are requesting these 3 jobs to be done Free of cost? I've realised that effort isnt cheap or free. Maybe you should speak to them on the phone and clarify whatever it is. Why dont you call them till you get a firm reply?

Nikhil... that was summarised perfectly. I think a simple gesture of both parties communicating to each other solves 90% of the problems.

Originally Posted by Dr.Naren

As mentioned before, I did call them and calls were not answered. I guess I have called every alternate day for a week. Then I felt there is no point.

1. Yes, I got to know only after the ECU was opened by Akshay. Only TOT had opened and sealed the ECU before.

2. Well, my calls were not answered.

Man, they've a facebook page, contact form on their website along with their phone numbers. In fact, last month or so, on Facebook, I read a review from you on their FB page. Just wondering, if everything was all right then?

Originally Posted by Sankar

Encrypted file means only TOT can use it? So its useless for any other tuner if they want to write it to your ECU to make it back to stock?
Next time talk with the tuner if you are not satisfied before taking it online.

As in the case of my S-Cross, it was a compressed/raw dump i guess.(~800kb). As per my knowledge, you need a master tool to uncompress that file, which Alientech does.

Originally Posted by Dr.Naren

Yes, it's encrypted file and would work only with TOT tool. When I remapped my SX4 from Rajiv, Wolf moto..
Also I am not looking forward to resolve any issues with TOT. It would be great if they could provide me my open stock map file. I have sent them an email.

Read above. I guess it was a compressed read taken by TOT. When my car was tuned, I was informed well in advance that the read would be compressed and needs to be sent to Alientech.

And since you've mentioned that you are not looking forward to resolve any issues with TOT, I implore that you stick with it. There's no point waiting on something for 6 months and then complaining about it online.

More importantly, I'm starting to see a trend with your posts (I've read all your threads). As in case of the Code6 and other tuners. You start off well and good... all praises, the moment things go over your head, you start bashing your current tuners and move on to the next one.

I sincerely hope that you find peace with whoever is your next tuner.

Originally Posted by Surprise

Wish it was done before it got raised here in TBHP as you were following up with them for quiet sometime.

It seems that the post was sent first on Team-Bhp and an email was sent much later. The screenshot provided does not show the date, hence it's difficult to base opinions.

Originally Posted by Dr.Naren

6. The protocol for S-Cross 1.6 was stabilised way back in November 2016. Alientech had released official update. I saw that in their site and did try again with TOT. .... But, Akshay had specific adapter for my ECU and it worked without any issues. I do not know more details about it. But all I know is TOT had to force read the ECU even when protocol was stabilised. ....There was no update from Alientech after November 2016 for S-Cross 1.6 EDC17C49 ECU. Akshay would have read the ECU even in November 2016

Not sure what was communicated to you but in my case, as and when new parameters were available, I was being promptly informed of the availability. In fact, my last update was a couple of days back.

Originally Posted by Dr.Naren

And ya whatever you have mentioned is from the viewpoint of a satisfied TOT customer and doesn't represent TOT right!!!

Easy on the sarcasm dude. I understand that as customers, most of the time we tend to be impatient. But trying to cut the hand that feeds you is plain young-blood stupidity. They are trying to help you out. At the end of the day, nobody wants a bad relationship with a customer.
As far as I'm concerned with Krytonite, he's been one of the most helpful people to work with.

Originally Posted by VellVector

I don't think he was trying to exonerate ToT

I think the english is pretty straight forward, he was exonerating TOT. Anyway, more light on the issue, the better it is. Since there is absolutely no evidence to support any of the claims, being skeptical is all that remains.

[Dr.Naren]

Originally Posted by dextertuned

Hey Naren, sorry to hear about this issue you are facing. I remember meeting you sometime back, when you had your S-Cross at ADIGA motors. TOT team was there. Why didn't you bring up the issue that time? I'm sure you would've got an immediate solution.

4 months back to be precise!! I did come there to check if the protocol works. As per TOT, once the protocol is working : they would try to delete EGR and customise the map. Alientech had released the protocol few days back and TOT again failed to read my ECU. Akshay had used the same protocol, but he used EDC17 specific adapter and it worked properly. TOT had not used the adapter.

When I was looking to get my S-Cross ECU tuned

Never knew about your S-Cross. Congrats!!

Man, they've a facebook page, contact form on their website along with their phone numbers.

I have called them several times. And yes, same number mentioned on their fb page. Do you want me to post call history details now?

As in the case of my S-Cross, it was a compressed/raw dump i guess.(~800kb). As per my knowledge, you need a master tool to uncompress that file, which Alientech does.

I thought TOT had the master tool, since they claim custom remaps. So, who is the master of TOT?

And since you've mentioned that you are not looking forward to resolve any issues with TOT, I implore that you stick with it. There's no point waiting on something for 6 months and then complaining about it online.

I did have good trust on them. 3 cars remapped by TOT in last one year. But, for my S-Cross : The support was not so great and even not receiving the calls of a paying customer was ridiculous.

It seems that the post was sent first on Team-Bhp and an email was sent much later. The screenshot provided does not show the date, hence it's difficult to base opinions.

Please go through my posts and the time line again. Since TOT was not responding to me, I had decided to check with another tuner. We got to know that the file sent to me by TOT was encrypted and could not be worked on. I had made it very clear that TOT was not even receiving my calls and did not even bother to call back. ( Yes, there were 2 missed calls only after I posted here)

[ecenandu]

Originally Posted by dextertuned

“Insufficient facts always invite danger.” - Star Trek

Woah, easy on the detesting boy. I don't think it means what you think it means. As per my experience, TOT has gone out of their way to honour commitments for lifetime support, most of the time even paying from their own pockets. As was the case when I was in Kolkata and needed a minor fix on my 1.8 TSI.

Yes, life time support do cost them. It is their duty to honour what they have committed. As a customer you should be realistic about "lifetime support".

Nikhil... that was summarised perfectly. I think a simple gesture of both parties communicating to each other solves 90% of the problems.

True, I second that.

And since you've mentioned that you are not looking forward to resolve any issues with TOT, I implore that you stick with it. There's no point waiting on something for 6 months and then complaining about it online.

His prerogative on what he can and can't say.

More importantly, I'm starting to see a trend with your posts (I've read all your threads). As in case of the Code6 and other tuners. You start off well and good... all praises, the moment things go over your head, you start bashing your current tuners and move on to the next one.

I had similar doubts, here is his reply.

Originally Posted by Dr.Naren

For Grand I10 : I have tried Code 6, RD Box and TOT

Yes, I would suggest TOT in this case. But, they do not have EGR soft delete available for this car too. If the customer is particular about it, he can check with other tuners.

For SX4 : I have tried Pete's, Wolf and TOT

TOT remap has the best 0-100 timing, but it smokes a lot. Also this is not a problem, as it could be corrected by reducing fuelling.

And ya Wolf remaps are really good too for 1.3 MJD engines. Remember Rajiv is not just a file writer, he can even do ECU recoding for few cars and give switchable maps. But for SX4, he couldn't give me switchable maps at that point due to some difficulties. Then he had gone back to his work at ship. I had some minor problems with the map later and had gone with TOT. The car is running fine except too much of black smoke. I have heard that Rajiv is back to India now and if he could provide switchable maps for SX4 now, I would consider going back to Wolf

[dextertuned]

With reference to the file being encoded/encrypted, I would like to bring to your notice that the file provided to be was also a compressed/raw dump. There is a difference between compressed/raw and encoded/encrypted.

Alientech was happy to clarify that the file was not encoded and upon request from any of their partners, they would be glad to decompress the file and send it across.
So that clarifies that fact that TOT had not encoded/encrypted the file and the read can be decompressed by anyone. Hope that helps.

Naren, since you feel that Kryptonite is part of TOT, I just wanted to check if you tried reaching out to him in the last 6 months regarding your queries? Just a clarification.

[Dr.Naren]

Originally Posted by dextertuned

With reference to the file being encoded/encrypted, I would like to bring to your notice that the file provided to be was also a compressed/raw dump. There is a difference between compressed/raw and encoded/encrypted.

Alientech was happy to clarify that the file was not encoded and upon request from any of their partners, they would be glad to decompress the file and send it across.
So that clarifies that fact that TOT had not encoded/encrypted the file and the read can be decompressed by anyone. Hope that helps.

My friend, why are you saying the same thing which I have only clarified before?? Didn't you read the post where I said TOT had clarified that the first file sent to me was compressed/raw read. But later they did send me the open file. Matter closed!!

Sid, file writer of TOT said that he was not aware of Vivek sending me the raw read and he did send me open file later.

. I had no idea you had a copy of the RAW format of the stock file, nevertheless, I have attached the file your tuner should be able to work with..

Naren, since you feel that Kryptonite is part of TOT, I just wanted to check if you tried reaching out to him in the last 6 months regarding your queries? Just a clarification.

Sorry, nothing to add here. Team BHP has done the needful.

[Akshay1234]

I think a few things need to be cleared up here, since people reading the thread may have some misconceptions -

1) In case you have missed the last few pages, the Akshay Dr.Naren has referred to is not me. I am not a tuner, and all these number codes and technical jargon is way above me

Ok now that the funny part is over -

2) Dr. Naren, it seems to be sounding like TOT did not reply to you for months about the 3 issues you had. You got the downpipe only in the middle of Feb. If I'm not wrong you are not in the same city as them, so it would be natural for them to take some time to visit, unless they do visit your city on a regular basis. Also you mentioned in one of your reports how they came to tune your car after the previous tune did not seem fast at all. I mean you were happy till beginning Feb, as we can see a few pages back.

So can you confirm they did not reply to you, or avoided your communication for weeks or months?

3) You also seem to insinuate that TOT doesn't make their own custom maps, and gets them done from abroad? Is that correct too?

I don't mean to sound harsh, but it seems like you are really going after them. So did something suddenly happen, where you were fine a couple of weeks ago and now seem so angry with them?

[Dr.Naren]

My 1.6 S-Cross remap journey with Tune O Tronics :

September 2016 :

I had shared numerous PMs with Kryptonite considering him as a customer who has tried RD box, Kiirus and TOT. He told me that TOT is the best and they wouldn't even charge me if I don't like the remap. I read all of his threads and TOT looked like a good choice. Also, TOT had given me a good map for Grand I10.

Vivek came down to remap my car. He couldn't read the ECU at first attempt. Finally, he was able to do it by force reading using different protocol.

After 3 days, TOT were ready with the file and flashed the tuned file. Car made good power. But there were few error codes ( say torque monitoring error). They flashed another map and it did not have error codes. The car felt faster than stock but it was not as powerful as the map with error codes. TOT told me to drive for few days and make tweaks if needed. After driving for few days, I was shocked to find out that the performance is same as stock on full throttle. I got suspicious and did 0-100, in gear acceleration runs and it was as good as stock. The map was same like driving a car with pedal tune box.

I was very disappointed and doing some research on ECU forums, I found out that a tuner can fool the customer to believe that the car is more powerful by changing only drivers wish map. But I had full faith on TOT and told them the issue. TOT replied saying that Alientech has detuned their map and it was not communicated to them. I don't know if it's the truth, will give TOT benefit of doubt here.

October 2016 :

TOT flashed another map. This was the 3rd map on my car. I liked the map and also the car was faster on V box ( 11.26 vs 9.73). TOT assured me that they will do EGR delete and tweak the map as per my need later, when protocol is stabilised.

November 2016 :

Alientech had released software update. I was happy to see that a new protocol for S-Cross was on the list. I wanted to check with TOT and met Vivek at Adiga motors. Alientech had mentioned different methods to read the ECU : Direct connection by probes and wires, using specific adapters etc. TOT tried to read the ecu by direct connection and it failed to even communicate with ECU. I asked TOT to try reading with the adapter. Vivek said he doesn't have the adapter for my ECU.

December 2016 to February 2017 :

I was little frustrated as TOT or Alientech did not have proper support for my car. Not to forget, CMD tool has proper support, but TOT doesn't have CMD tool.

I wanted to do other mods and got a nicely made downpipe by Blackworks. The performance was very good and there was significant improvement. It's a known fact that a tweaked map can exploit the downpipe mod fully. So I had asked TOT for a tweaked map with EGR delete and they said will revert back. I did not get any response for many days. Later when I called them, they didn't receive my calls or even have the courtesy to call me back.

Akshay's Entry / Quantum Tuning UK :

Akshay is from Delhi and he had come to Bangalore. Since, I was not able to communicate with TOT and very frustrated.. I decided to check with Akshay as he has an adapter specific for my ECU. Akshay read my ECU properly using the EDC17 Adapter. It was read using the same protocol updated by Alientech in November 2016. Anybody can check the Alientech website and they have not released any protocol update for S-Cross after November 2016. So it was very sure that Akshay could have read my ECU even in November 2016.

I wanted to get remap from Quantum UK, as Akshay had proper support for my ECU. TOT had sent me stock file and I gave it to Akshay. But, after checking with Quantum UK and Alientech, it was found out that we need an open stock file to proceed.

I posted the same here on my thread and also sent an email to TOT asking for open stock file. TOT did send me the stock uncompressed file within 24 hours. Matter closed!!

Also, I would like to mention some details which I had not shared on the forum openly. This is also one of the main reason for moving away from TOT.

I did not know before that Kryptonite is affiliated with TOT. I got shocked to know about it one day. If I knew this before, I would have taken 2nd opinion or did more research about TOT. I blindly believed his threads and the discussions we had in person. Anyways, I am happy that it won't happen to any other potential customer. The biased content has been already deleted on the forum now.

Kryptonite had posted way back in 2012 about TOT. He had mentioned that Sid was very experienced and used to remap cars abroad. Also, he is a certified tuner. Few old posts also said he was certifed by AEM, Motec etc. Again after doing more research, I found out that nobody certifies a tuner or say how good or bad they are. They only give certificate of participation for attending one or two days seminars.

TOT was started somewhere in 2011. And as per Kryptonite, they had good experience with cars even before starting TOT in India. But there was another shocking news to me. I am a member of various ECU tuning forums. I had joined to get some information. I was surprised to find TOT tuner Sid there.

Sid had posted on those forums saying he is "newbie to ECU remaps and please forgive him for dumb questions". Well it was way back in 2012. But as per the posts on team bhp in 2012, TOT is certified tuner.. Great!! I saw all his posts on those forums and I could just say that they are like any other custom remap guys in India. All they do is experiment on customer cars. My S-Cross 1.6 and Suraj's Abarth punto were the perfect examples.

I have nothing more to add on this topic and TOT is a history for me.

Cheers!!

[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by Dr.Naren

I saw all his posts on those forums and I could just say that they are like any other custom remap guys in India. All they do is experiment on customer cars. My S-Cross 1.6 and Suraj's Abarth punto were the perfect examples.

Good that you have realized this! late but well worth it. Now on do take with a pinch of salt what the modifications and tuning guys tells you, unless it is backed up with real data and vehicles that you can drive and confirm.

The industry is in its infancy due to many reasons including, cost, technical skills, access to parts and software's and what not. Till these gets sorted, there will be zillion other players who would come and offer this and that. As a person reasonably aware of the matters in this space, please use caution now on

The whole business is like cooking ROM for phones, unless you really know what you are getting into and accept the implications, best to stay conservative and with tried and tested ones.

[Dr.Naren]

Originally Posted by Jaggu

Good that you have realized this! late but well worth it. Now on do take with a pinch of salt what the modifications and tuning guys tells you, unless it is backed up with real data and vehicles that you can drive and confirm.

The industry is in its infancy due to many reasons including, cost, technical skills, access to parts and software's and what not. Till these gets sorted, there will be zillion other players who would come and offer this and that. As a person reasonably aware of the matters in this space, please use caution now on

The whole business is like cooking ROM for phones, unless you really know what you are getting into and accept the implications, best to stay conservative and with tried and tested ones.

Well said Jaggu sir!! This is the same thing I am going through now.

I would have burnt lot of cash and time. But I would take it sportively and this is a good learning experience.

I have completed only one quarter of life and I am sure I would be doing something with cars for next 25 years . Now I know the real scene and what these tuners are upto. But ya, tuning industry is like that.

Well, now the entire forum knows how the journey of TOT on team bhp were built on lies and misleading content.