ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

[MotoKris]

Fully Synthetic engine oils come in different classifications. As of a few years ago Shell had Group 3 oils. So was Castrol. In comparison, Shell's fared far better for Group 3 oils and Castrols were crap. We tried several vendors like Motul, Mobil, Petronas who has Group 5 and some Group 4 oils too. There was lot of information and discussion I have shared but don't recollect whether it is on TeamBHP or XBHP.

You can sure find the information either in this thread or in the Engine Oils thread in XBHP.

[devarshi84]

Using Veedol 15w50 4t for Enfield Bullet as it meets all criteria and is cheap. Also the it sees less mileage.

And put in Savsol 5w-30 4t synth (they call it the first 5w-30 4t in India) on my two Suzuki 125's for winter cold starts.

[Wheel Spin]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

Ithink Honda has 0W30 Idemitsu in their Garages. Another excellent,and cheaper oil. Most modern engines do not really need SAE40. In fact my Brio bookletl seems to be happy with even with SAE20 (as Honda specifies in the US)!

For how long in terms of KM and months this 0W30 oil can be used in the Honda City?

[sgiitk]

Originally Posted by Wheel Spin

For how long in terms of KM and months this 0W30 oil can be used in the Honda City?

We use it for 12 months or 10/12,000km. All four of our cars City & Civic (and also our Brio & Amaze) are out of warranty so we are free to do what we want. As it stands it is only the City which does more than 10,000km pa. Now most likely the City will be here (under 6,000pa) while the Civic will be i n Gurugram (>10,000pa).

[Wheel Spin]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

We use it for 12 months or 10/12,000km. All four of our cars City & Civic (and also our Brio & Amaze) are out of warranty so we are free to do what we want. As it stands it is only the City which does more than 10,000km pa. Now most likely the City will be here (under 6,000pa) while the Civic will be i n Gurugram (>10,000pa).

Sir, thanks for your reply. A 4 ltr pack of fully synthetic oil of Honda costs around Rs.3200 where as that of mineral oil costs Rs.1200. Will it be right/prudent to go for mineral oil and change it twice in a year rather than going for synthetic oil and change it once in a year with the kms done remaining same?

Some say, syn oil is corrosive i.e. it eats away metal. Is that true?

[Leoshashi]

Used Liqui Moly 5w40 Fully Synthetic oil along with Ceratec Engine oil treatment on my 2000 vintage 5 Speed 800. It has run close to 3 lac kms on stock engine, and I attribute this long life to the proactive engine oil change schedules that we have been religiously following since the past 16.5 years.

This is the first time I am using a synthetic engine oil in my car. My last engine oil was Shell Helix HX7 10w40 Semi-Synthetic oil. I didn't use any flush before making the change-All I did was did a hard run on the outer ring road, so that oil becomes properly warm.

Something about the oil-I bought 7L(One 5L can + Two 1L cans) from Amazon. My 800 needs close to 2.8L while the remaining amount will be used by BHPian Saket77 in his Zen.

Engine Oil


Something about Ceratec-Now this is the only oil additive which had close to 90% positive reviews, and being from Liqui Moly, I didn't have any reason to doubt them. I essentially reduces friction between piston and cylinder walls.

Positive reviews on Amazon.com





I bought it from Landroverlab for Rs. 2,250.

http://landroverlab.com/products/cer...ade-in-germany

Youtube

Quoting Liqui Moly-

Cera Tec is a high-tech ceramic wear protection and can be mixed with all commercially available oils. Cera Tec reduces friction and wear by using chemically and thermally extremely high-resilient ceramic compounds. Prevents direct metal/metal contact, increasing the service life of the aggregate. The smooth-running effect reduces fuel consumption in gasoline and diesel engines.

Intended use

Wear protection for engines, transmissions, pumps and compressors. Cera Tec is added to the oil and is self-mixing. Sufficient for 5 l oil volume. With long-term effect for 50,000 km. Not suitable for use with wet clutches!

The way it was added- My MASS poured in 2L of Liqui Moly 5w40 engine oil. Then 300ml of Ceratec was poured in, and then the engine took close to 600ml of engine oil for the level to come upto max in the dipstick.- The car was then left idling for close to 10 minutes. With every passing second, the sound of engine started decreasing!!



For those who are aware of the sound of this engine(F8D) which is commonly found in Altos, it became silent and refined like a 4 cylinder engine. It may sound like exaggeration, but the typical 3 cylinder vibration has really come down. The engine has become extremely revv happy with the engine sounding really sweet even near the 6000rpm mark(checked using SDT).

I have driven close to 800kms after the oil change, and I can't explain in words how happy I am. I am sold on this engine oil and additive combo, and will be adding to all my future cars. The additive claims to work till 50,000kms. Never believed that a humble 800 could get so refined.

Post the oil change, there has been a noticeable improvement in fuel consumption too. I am easily getting close to 20-21kmpl within city without AC. Earlier that figure used to be around 17-18kmpl. I have done just one full tank check, so will be updating you all on the future efficiency figures.

My 800 is extremely happy after getting the fresh oil


BHPian Saket77's impeccably maintained '02 Zen eagerly awaiting the Liqui Molys


I know many will consider this as extravagance for something as basic and humble as the 800 and the Zen, but then love knows no bounds.

Regards,
Shashi

[sgiitk]

Originally Posted by Wheel Spin

Sir, thanks for your reply. A 4 ltr pack of fully synthetic oil of Honda costs around Rs.3200 where as that of mineral oil costs Rs.1200. Will it be right/prudent to go for mineral oil and change it twice in a year rather than going for synthetic oil and change it once in a year with the kms done remaining same?

I have no issues with once a year, as long as you are under 10,000km pa. As for corrosion oil does collect a lot of garbage sone of which is corrosive. So ironically cars which are 'opened up' occasionally are better off than those used exclusively for pottering around town. When hot the bad stuff tends to boil off.

[Sawyer]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

When hot the bad stuff tends to boil off.

A little understood fact that drives the statement - all kilometres run aren't the same in this context.

A car that has done 10,000 km only via inter city driving may safely run even more than that on a high quality oil. But the same oil may need to be changed at least twice in a car whose 10,000km have been racked up in drives of less than 10-15 minutes duration each time, where the combustion contaminants deposited in the oil never get a chance to boil away because this needs the engine to be running at normal operating temperatures for 20-30 minutes, ideally an hour. As the amount of these suspended contaminants in the oil rises, the lubricating qualities of the oil get reduced, needing the more frequent oil changes, no matter how high the oil may be in quality or even if it is the best synthetic in the market.

[devarshi84]

Originally Posted by Wheel Spin

Sir, thanks for your reply. A 4 ltr pack of fully synthetic oil of Honda costs around Rs.3200 where as that of mineral oil costs Rs.1200. Will it be right/prudent to go for mineral oil and change it twice in a year rather than going for synthetic oil and change it once in a year with the kms done remaining same?

Some say, syn oil is corrosive i.e. it eats away metal. Is that true?

The new gen Synthetic oils with newer API specs have to meet stringent engine maintenance standards including Corrosion. Although newer SN standards are more tilting towards fuel efficiency. Additionally, Oil filters are there for a reason. They capture all the different elements including corrosive substances and gunk to keep engine clean.

Using Mineral grade twice a year will work out same for you compared to using Synth once costwise. The difference will be the extra Additives in the synth which actually help fight corrosion (think this is a more diesel specific issue) prevent deposits and reduce friction compared to a similar viscosity mineral oil.

To be honest a basic mineral oil from a local brand like Mak, Servo, HPCL or Veedol will be less than half of a proper 100% synthetic (different than fully synthetic and a different can of worms) oil.

Let Honda use whatever oil in your car. It is not really an issue to lose sleep over, unless you are using a City or higher segment car for spirited driving or lots of touring. Mineral oils are perfectly fine for city driving where engine temps will never reach high temps and hence HTHS is not going to be an issue. You might be able to even see high mileage oil change intervals. Look at a lower cold temp oil for short runs.

Hope that helped.

Originally Posted by sgiitk

I have no issues with once a year, as long as you are under 10,000km pa. As for corrosion oil does collect a lot of garbage sone of which is corrosive. So ironically cars which are 'opened up' occasionally are better off than those used exclusively for pottering about time. When hot the bad stuff tends to boil off.

I have checked with Honda dealers in our city for this 0w-30 a couple of times. Nobody has an idea what I am talking about. Idemitsu 5w-30 is a standard synth fill though. I did a google and all 0w-30 honda in india posts lead me to your posts on different forums. Can you confirm once again if it is 0w-30?

Originally Posted by Leoshashi

Used Liqui Moly 5w40 Fully Synthetic oil along with Ceratec Engine oil treatment on my 2000 vintage 5 Speed 800. It has run close to 3 lac kms on stock engine, and I attribute this long life to the proactive engine oil change schedules that we have been religiously following since the past 16.5 years.

I am using a liqui moly on my 2003 Lancer with satisfaction. Their oils are good.

But I stopped adding additives like Nulon and STP the day I started researching and using good quality oils with a good additive pack.

Ceratec might give you instant difference, but a good quality will do the same over a range of 500-1000kms. (Your liqui moly oil is that good).

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by devarshi84

I am using a liqui moly on my 2003 Lancer with satisfaction. Their oils are good.



But I stopped adding additives like Nulon and STP the day I started researching and using good quality oils with a good additive pack.



Ceratec might give you instant difference, but a good quality will do the same over a range of 500-1000kms. (Your liqui moly oil is that good).

I would be interested how you reach those conclusions and advise. Do you take your engines apart, measure clearance, wear etc? If not, what quantitive measurable criteria d you use?

Thanks, Jeroen

[vnabhi]

Originally Posted by devarshi84

Mineral oils are perfectly fine for city driving where engine temps will never reach high temps and hence HTHS is not going to be an issue. You might be able to even see high mileage oil change intervals. Look at a lower cold temp oil for short runs.

Pardon me, but doesn't the car run cooler on highway runs, unless you are speaking of ghat road driving? I was under the impression that stop-and-go traffic in city conditions causes higher temperature and wear-and-tear on the engine.

[Sawyer]

Originally Posted by vnabhi

stop-and-go traffic in city conditions causes higher wear-and-tear on the engine.

For two reasons:
1. Engine starting from cold causes the most engine wear and a car that has run say 10000 km in the city, as compared to one that has run the same in inter city travel will have undergone a lot more cold starts for the kilometres run and therefore more wear and tear as a direct result of the greater number of starts from cold in the same 10000 kms.
2. Short run drives don't allow the contaminant deposits in the engine oil to boil away and the oil therefore degrades faster. This can be addressed by more frequent oil changes, but in practice the resultant oil quality may still not match that in a car where each inter city run effectively also cleans up the oil by having the contaminants boil away to the maximum extent. This compounds the problem of more wear caused by more cold starts.

And generally on this subject of engine oil, there is a lot of voodoo, and consequently a lot of voodoo marketing that plays upon human psychology to extract more money from gullible users, that are susceptible to a feel good factor similar to that of people taking expensive food supplements.

Also, even given the quality now of most modern engines, almost no one of these buyers of exotica uses the full service life of an engine before rebuilds - they have got bored of the car and sold it a lot before that happens - irony of sorts there. And my experience of those that do use the engine fully is that they tend to rely more on regular and frequent oil changes using genuine oil and don't bother with the expensive exotica that proliferates in the market for automobile lubricants.

A good way to see this in operation is with the taxi fleet operators that aren't swayed by the voodoo marketing. Or those running bus/truck fleets.

[hserus]

So ok, additives - especially those claiming ceramic coating etc - are most likely voodoo. Do you favor using engine oil flushes, or is just draining your engine for say ten minutes more adequate to fully clean out old oil?

[sgiitk]

Originally Posted by devarshi84

I have checked with Honda dealers in our city for this 0w-30 a couple of times. Nobody has an idea what I am talking about. Idemitsu 5w-30 is a standard synth fill though. I did a google and all 0w-30 honda in india posts lead me to your posts on different forums. Can you confirm once again if it is 0w-30?

I think 5W30 is a semi-synth. Please check on my thread

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...silver-15.html

You will find multiple entries of invoices with 0W30 (Synth). I have also, checked the can twice. It was API-SM and not API-SN though.

[sgiitk]

Originally Posted by hserus

So ok, additives - especially those claiming ceramic coating etc - are most likely voodoo. Do you favor using engine oil flushes, or is just draining your engine for say ten minutes more adequate to fully clean out old oil?

I agree 100%. if you have a good oil then do not mess up the chemistry by mixing in your own stuff. I think the oil maker knows best! In my forty plus years of motoring have never added stuff, except once when I added Nulon to my Padmini and somehow broke the crankshaft within 1,000km. I guess that was bad luck. I always make sure I have an oil with a very good rating.