[ebonho]

Originally Posted by Urban_Nomad

Still not apples to apples doc. The XR 400 is more like a dirtbike with lights rather than an adventure / touring motorcycle

I did not get this part. And XR400 is somehow less of an adventure/touring motorcycle than a Bullet or a Himalayan is?

Why?

Fact: the XR400 was till 2004 the undisputed top of the heap in its capacity class. Till the LC 450s came along and pushed the envelope (the DRZ400, theYam and KTM and BMW 450s). And not just for a few years. I'd buy one tomorrow if it were available new off the shelf today.

Its an awesome machine. Its a legendary small bike with a big heart and huge muscles. And its done more RTWs than RE or Bullet can dream of.

Even our lightweight KTMs weigh around 160 KGs.

140 for the 200 and 150 for the 390. The difference is huge. Take 5 kilos off your saddlebags and see how your bike feels. 10 kilos and you have to adjust and compensate re-balance. 15-20 kilos and you are riding a whole different bike.

If the Himalayan weighs just 10 kilos more; I think the boys at Enfield would have done a great job

Let's forget about the Himalaya competing with the KTM on weight. Big Japs have been trying to for 20 years and failing.

Let's instead see what RE manages to do vis a vis its own product line. That itself would be something. 10-15 kilos most Bulleteers manage at their roadside workshops for racing. Just stripping the tin work and non esential stuff (the main stand weighs 5 kilos .....). Surely RE should be able to do better and still keep the bike functional and un-stripped.

But even if I were to take this news on face value and the Himalayan is indeed 28 BHP, 170 (or even 180) KG, 32 NM torque ..... any reason why it should not match the mini Ceeber which is - 26 BHP, 170 KG, 23 NM torque in terms of performance? You did mention that the latter does put out a very respectable top whack

I will tip my hat to RE if the Himalaya can actually do 150+. I will do it publicly here on Team BHP.

I am still rooting for this RE to come out swinging

I'm keeping tabs. Out of sheer academic interest.

And as an Indian, I'm happy an Indian company owns the Himalayan name.

Like Dakar or Baja or TransAlp. Time to get the big daddy on the map.

Just hope it does not embarrass while doing it.

[Hammer & Anvil]

I find it strange that no one seems to address a huge market of touring bikes- with bikes built for Indian physiques'
Anthropometric data shows Indian Males at 5'6" and with the surging middle class a huge market for bikes that can tour rather effortlessly for 10-12 hours a day, and with a seat height of about 790-800mm-
I still think that bike makers are a pampered lot and run by blind people- that i see Bajaj trying to get the 690 with its stratospheric seating and instead of bringing in the 1290- which could carve a huge touring market with its price, seat height and ergonomics.
Mostly everyone here is clamouring for the Himalayan- from the reports that I have- similar to most of the rumors anyway- is that its a fantastic running bike- and it will make me forget 'any other Indian bike.'
My Enfield encouraged me to go to Leh-once, but I have thrice the miles on my Harley- not because of the power- it because of the comfort and the reliability.
I yearn for a INR 1.8-3.0L tourer- with a top end that can touch a real 140, but can tootle along at 80-110-120 all day--- and something that I can use on weekdays around the house. Seat height of 790, forward foot pegs, 6 gears, twin brake discs up front...

[ksameer1234]

Originally Posted by Hammer & Anvil

I find it strange that no one seems to address a huge market of touring bikes- with bikes built for Indian physiques'

I yearn for a INR 1.8-3.0L tourer- with a top end that can touch a real 140, but can tootle along at 80-110-120 all day--- and something that I can use on weekdays around the house. Seat height of 790, forward foot pegs, 6 gears, twin brake discs up front...

My thoughts exactly. I fail to understand why manufacturers are steadily raising the seat height while an average Indian male increasingly struggles to firm his feet on ground.

Above specs are for an ideal bike which can much miles effortlessly. Himalayan may well cater to the enthusiast but the saddle height (looking at the picture, I don't think it will be forgiving) will end up deterring many.

[Urban_Nomad]

Originally Posted by Hammer & Anvil

I still think that bike makers are a pampered lot and run by blind people- that i see Bajaj trying to get the 690 with its stratospheric seating and instead of bringing in the 1290- which could carve a huge touring market with its price, seat height and ....

Motorcycle manufacturers, like any other business are here to make profit. I'm sure they all have this info around the avg indian male's height. Even if they didn't, it's just common sense that a bike that can be straddled by a 5 footer, 6 footers should not have an issue either. Thus opening up the market to many more buyers

But it is the design and dynamics that dictate saddle height. Cruisers such as Harleys have low twin engines with a rather long wheelbase. Accommodating a short saddle is no problem

Sportbikes on the other hand have short wheelbase that need to accommodate a lot if machinery within a short wheelbase. More importantly, the riders weight up high helps tip the bike into corners much quicker

Even Adventure type motorcycles have a high saddle on account of their suspension travel and the need for ample ground clearance

I'm sure there are many more pertinent reasons I may have missed out but just wanted to point out that it's not without reason that seat heights are whatever they are

[nasirkaka]

Just like so many of you, I must admit that Himalayan has drawn my attention as well with whatever spy pics, specs going around.
A sense of Deja wu, when in 2009 the first pics of the all new UCE classic 500 teal blue floating across the net, the numbers such as 27.2 bhp, EFI, etc and i was all floored. Do remember having one of the pics as my desktop wallpaper as well. Ditched my machismo 350 avl and booked the C5 as soon as it was launched.
coming to present, sold the very same bike a few months back main reason being under powered as stock, handling and braking (also the ktm 390). with two RE motorcycle experience, i will not be jumping Q the third time. Will definitely keep an eye on the Himalayan and how it blooms, but no hurry this time.

[Urban_Nomad]

Hey Doc! Sorry I missed responding to your post (not that you were really looking forward to it )

Originally Posted by ebonho

I did not get this part. And XR400 is somehow less of an adventure/touring motorcycle than a Bullet or a Himalayan is

Never said or imlplied XR400 was a lesser bike. But the Himalayan and the Honda set out to do two very different things. Before getting into the details, let me ask you, just looking at the spyshots of the RE, what does it most closely resemble? An XR / DRZ .... or a Tiger / GS?

Would it be apples to apples if you were to compare the latter to the XR?

From what I understand; the Himalayan aims to achieve the functionality parameters that and Adventure touring, 80:20 or at best 70:30 (Road : Offroad) motorcycle like Tiger embodies and not the more off road oriented XR 400. Some of the very high level / broad ones would be:

- Comfortable, even for 2 up touring
- Will take the odd dirt / gravel road with ease. But not meant for technical trail riding. Road manners are very predictable
- Easy to tie down luggage
- Reasonably powerful (very subjective) - I define it as being able to do 120 KPH all day without a whine, with luggage and two people on board. Its the cruising speed that matters to me. Top speed does not matter, and it usually does not matter whilst discussing bikes like these. These machines are not meant to compete on a racetrack. Horses for courses

Originally Posted by ebonho

Fact: the XR400 was till 2004 the undisputed top of the heap in its capacity class. Till the LC 450s came along and pushed the envelope (the DRZ400, theYam and KTM and BMW 450s). And not just for a few years. I'd buy one tomorrow if it were available new off the shelf today.

How much do the KTMs and BMWs cost doc? Lets again take the less exotic XR400 in account here. A new one costs over $9000 I think. Even if it were to be launched in India without any additional duties, taxes, levies etc; would you pay close to Rs600,000 for it?

Originally Posted by ebonho

Its an awesome machine. Its a legendary small bike with a big heart and huge muscles. And its done more RTWs than RE or Bullet can dream of.

Again, have not even mentioned RE as the sugar, spice & everything nice of the motorcycling world. But at least in India, REs dont even cost a fraction of what these machines do. RE will not be priced remotely near the foreign competitors. Not sure how this warrants a comparison. Or do you think this is the price category RE is targetting?

Originally Posted by ebonho

140 for the 200 and 150 for the 390. The difference is huge. Take 5 kilos off your saddlebags and see how your bike feels. 10 kilos and you have to adjust and compensate re-balance. 15-20 kilos and you are riding a whole different bike.

True. I somehow had the wet weight figure for the 390 as 159. My mistake

Originally Posted by ebonho

Let's forget about the Himalaya competing with the KTM on weight. Big Japs have been trying to for 20 years and failing.

Originally Posted by ebonho

Let's instead see what RE manages to do vis a vis its own product line. That itself would be something. 10-15 kilos most Bulleteers manage at their roadside workshops for racing. Just stripping the tin work and non esential stuff (the main stand weighs 5 kilos .....). Surely RE should be able to do better and still keep the bike functional and un-stripped.

IIRC the Continental GT weighs 185 KG wet. So shaving off some more weight might be possible. And coincidentally, the same guy who gave some info around the bike earlier happened to mention that "For an RE, it feels very light". Take that for what you will

Originally Posted by ebonho

I will tip my hat to RE if the Himalaya can actually do 150+. I will do it publicly here on Team BHP.

But what about how it gets there? My 390 for example is relatively smooth even at the very top end of its performance. I would be fine if it did (say) 140 and did not rattle my hands to the point of numbness

Originally Posted by ebonho

I'm keeping tabs. Out of sheer academic interest.

And as an Indian, I'm happy an Indian company owns the Himalayan name.

Like Dakar or Baja or TransAlp. Time to get the big daddy on the map.

Just hope it does not embarrass while doing it.

I must sound like a broken record, but I am still hopeful that this will be the RE we have all been waiting for. I dont know why you got excited about the Continental GT when all reports pointed to the same vibey engine being used with minor alterations to the bore(?)

This one is a new everything. This one looks very exciting!

[ku69rd]

One more prototype photo of the Himalaya.

There are quite a few anomalies like 2 pairs of indicators at the front and the fork post triple tree is out of proportion with the rest of assembly.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by ku69rd

One more prototype photo of the Himalaya.

There are quite a few anomalies like 2 pairs of indicators at the front and the fork post triple tree is out of proportion with the rest of assembly.

Attachment 1407151

Its a very well proportioned and smart looking bike. No two ways about that.

Also the fork in your photo is a disappointment. The offset, mid leg enduro style one on the black test bike some pages ago was the business. Maybe they found it too expensive.

[man_of_steel]

Originally Posted by ebonho

The offset, mid leg enduro style one on the black test bike some pages ago was the business. Maybe they found it too expensive.

This is an unofficial rendering right? The artist might have taken the fork from another bike for the purpose of rendering. I would like to believe that the forks on the prototype will make it to production.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by Urban_Nomad

Never said or imlplied XR400 was a lesser bike. But the Himalayan and the Honda set out to do two very different things. Before getting into the details, let me ask you, just looking at the spyshots of the RE, what does it most closely resemble? An XR / DRZ .... or a Tiger / GS?

Would it be apples to apples if you were to compare the latter to the XR?

From what I understand; the Himalayan aims to achieve the functionality parameters that and Adventure touring, 80:20 or at best 70:30 (Road : Offroad) motorcycle like Tiger embodies and not the more off road oriented XR 400. Some of the very high level / broad ones would be:

- Comfortable, even for 2 up touring
- Will take the odd dirt / gravel road with ease. But not meant for technical trail riding. Road manners are very predictable
- Easy to tie down luggage
- Reasonably powerful (very subjective) - I define it as being able to do 120 KPH all day without a whine, with luggage and two people on board. Its the cruising speed that matters to me. Top speed does not matter, and it usually does not matter whilst discussing bikes like these. These machines are not meant to compete on a racetrack. Horses for courses

The Himalayan is nothing like the Tiger. They could not be more different.

If anything, if one had to compare to what we had it the market right now, the Himalayan is the poor man's very underpowered Ducati Scrambler.

How much do the KTMs and BMWs cost doc? Lets again take the less exotic XR400 in account here. A new one costs over $9000 I think. Even if it were to be launched in India without any additional duties, taxes, levies etc; would you pay close to Rs600,000 for it?

Its not an apple to apple comparison.

A Duke 390 costs 12000 Singapore Dollars.

That's 5.7 lakh rupees.

That's 2.7 times the price we pay for it in India.

The Classic 500 that retails for around 1.7 lakhs here is sold for around 5 lakhs in the US.

That's close to 3 times the price we pay.

Coming to your requirements of what a good touring bike should be able to do, I see nothing where an XR400 (which died more than a decade ago) would come second best to the Himalayan.

Cc to cc, intended use, engine and cooling type, that's the closest comparison you are going to get out there.

IIRC the Continental GT weighs 185 KG wet. So shaving off some more weight might be possible.

Are you sure? Because a Std 500 weighs in at 180.

But what about how it gets there? My 390 for example is relatively smooth even at the very top end of its performance. I would be fine if it did (say) 140 and did not rattle my hands to the point of numbness

Its not fair to get a 390 into the comparison when a 200 would be overkill.

I dont know why you got excited about the Continental GT when all reports pointed to the same vibey engine being used with minor alterations to the bore(?)

The 535 Lightning was a different beast to the Std 500.

We never got to see and feel what a AVL 535 could do, though the after market kits are there.

So one imagined that the Con GT 535 would be a lot better than the very insipid C5. Frankly, most old riders found it no different.

If a company is bold (pretentious?) enough to call a bike a Cafe Racer and give it a hallowed moniker, the least one would expect is that it not embarrass itself (and the Indian industry) by giving the world a bike that would struggle to hit a true 140.

When all and any Cafe Racer worth its salt were hitting the ton more than half a century ago.

With Iron Barrels.

This one is a new everything. This one looks very exciting!

We've heard new everything when the LB came out.

We then heard new everything when the UCE came out.

Its new everything season again. But pardon a few of us from not getting our pom poms out this time in a hurry. Or holding our breath in our emphysematous old wheezy lungs.

[man_of_steel]

Another Scoop pic. Surprised to see a linked type rear mono shock absorber I thought it was a directly bolted one like the Dukes!

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by man_of_steel

Another Scoop pic. Surprised to see a linked type rear mono shock absorber I thought it was a directly bolted one like the Dukes!

Very impressive.

Though per KTM's extensive research and expertise (unparalleled) direct bolt mono shocks have their own advantages in their intended use / motorcycle type envelope.

[navin_v8]

Originally Posted by ebonho

Navin, I like the idea of the Pepsi bottle. Could you please post a close up photo of the same?

Although as per your request I have taken the pic of my Bullet Standard CI's ignition coil covered with a 500ml plastic soft drink bottle(circled in red).



Hope this helps

[ku69rd]

Originally Posted by ebonho

If anything, if one had to compare to what we had it the market right now, the Himalayan is the poor man's very underpowered Ducati Scrambler.

Hey Doc,

Would be very keen to understand what makes you feel that the Ducati Scrambler is "very underpowered"?

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by ku69rd

Hey Doc,

Would be very keen to understand what makes you feel that the Ducati Scrambler is "very underpowered"?

I said the Himalayan was the poor man's very underpowered Ducati Scrambler.