[puchoo]

Not sure if this has been highlighted elsewhere

The company that launched the Sail U-VA a day ahead in Delhi and Mumbai, already received bookings for 200 cars and 4,000 inquiries and expects a 2-3% growth rate in the industry being down while expecting 80% demand in the diesel section and market trend of 52% for the same, he noted.

Nothing to write home about as far as the booking numbers go , and inquiries while decent again are , i am sure , not what Chevrolet was hoping.

[mi2n]

Originally Posted by gemi_kk

Again, Please make a note that, the Comparison made is between Maruti and Chevrolet. Does a customer of Maruti say, chevrolet is good when compared to Maruti? Hyundai is out. we are only comparing with maruti.

Yes, here at T-BHP, most BHPians do admire other brands irrespective of which brand they own. More often I have seen honest criticism than members trying to justify their investment/choice of brand. So yes, a Maruti owning T-BHPian would definitely admit of Chevy being better than M.A.S.S. or vice versa as he may himself find out from his own experience and perspectives.
Why should Hyundai be left out? Chief competitors to the SAIL does include the i20!

Originally Posted by gemi_kk

Again, This there is a hidden point here. If the manufacturer orders for 10000 Brake pad sets, the pricing would be say XXX and if the same manufacturer orders for 1000000 brake pads, the price would be much less than XXX. This might not be completly true in real time.

Originally Posted by gemi_kk

Would a road side spares shop guy prefer to store lower arms, brakepads, suspension of Kizashi? Of Swift? Definitely yes. This was just a comparitive example

And this is exactly why I started my earlier post by saying that I totally agree with the principles of economies of scale.

Originally Posted by gemi_kk

Cruze is sold in US, Australia and in many other places. It sold like hot cakes. In india, the number is hardly 300. There are many such examples. Another one is Corolla which topped the charts for decades. Being new or old to the world doesnt matter. How many units are sold in a country is the actual differentiating factor.

The Cruze is a smash hit in India as well! Again, this is not a mass market hatchback, it's a D1 segment Sedan and it has topped it's segment for months trading blows with the Corolla in others. It is only due to the recent skew towards SUVs which has affected all D segment sedans equally and the price hike of the facelifted Cruze that has dented its sales in recent months. For the D1 segment, monthly figures of 600-1000 is what companies would ideally look for. Again, being a new or old model matters seriously in the safety department, new models are safer even if the Indian variant is stripped of most addon safety features available in more affluent countries. The basics are safer.

Originally Posted by gemi_kk

believe me, with the numbers you are talking of 500-1000. No company can survive with such volumes. There are atleast 400 service centres running in whole india. if the volume is 1000 per month this translates to 2.5 cars per month per service centre. If the car sells 1000 units for 2 years, the number of cars reaching the centre would be 2.5*24 = 60 cars per month. How will a company survive? Yes, the company has Beat which does some serious contribution. Tavera does some decent contributions. but definitely 1000 is not the acutal volume with which they could make any profit.

I had mentioned the 500-1000 units/month as the worst case scenario,. But even with such figures Chevy would actually be better of than their current position! Just browse through they monthly sales figures of the outgoing U-VA and Aveo sedans for the last two years and more. The Beat and Tavera will still be here. I have not encountered any instances of AVEO/UVA owner complaining about lack of spares yet.

[kpzen]

Figo vs Sail vs i20 vs Liva

Looks & Design:
i20 = Sail > Figo >> Liva

i20
Hyundai has shown a remarkable turnaround in the last decade. Earlier Known for their ugly and boring designs but ever
since the launch of i20 they have presented all stunning & aggressive fluidic designs. Little over desgined for some.
Quality & finish is top class but as all Hyundais they are little prone to rust after 4 years.

Sail
Its a hunk, optimised design with no ugly sides to it. Nice clean lines all over.
Some butchy 5 spoke wheels should make it look stunning.
Design wise it would be hit for all age groups unlike i20.

Figo
Front looks like a tadpole with lots of round edges like the Ikon.
Side is a lowered Fusion but the rear has european touch classy touch with those christmas tree tail lamps.
Neither a hunk nor ugly from all sides.

Liva
Not one side looks appealing. Lines & curves are not proportionate.
Whole car seems like someone has mounted the frame of some other car on the chassis. There's a disconnected feel to it.
Even a TRD kit couldn't make it look good.


Interiors design :
i20>Sail>Figo (Liva disqualified)

i20
Fantastic cockpit design with lots of controls. Big hugging seats.
Loaded with features unlike any other hatchback.
Amazing quality of plastics in an era where all manufacturers have initiated massive cost cutting on interiors.

Sail
Nicely put up, fine touches here and there.
Quality is good with no visible panel gaps and no loose ends.
Gear knob placement could have been placed a little ahead.
RPM meter is weird would take sometime to get used to.
Chiller AC like Figo.

Figo
Plastics have a typical strong feel like all Fords.
Seats are flat and too narrow. Some controls like indicator stalk and boot opening stalk are placed oddly. Would take a Maruti/ Hyundai
person sometime to get used to.
Door panels are well sorted and shouldn't rattle with age.

LiVa
In one word,Atrocious. what were the toyota designers thinking while designing this.
Adding to the design, light grey color of interiors makes it even worse.
Speedometer reminds me of the school days - art class, two mountains and a shining sun in between.
RPM meter in top model only.
AC vents - 3 on one side and one on the other side. Wicked design again.


Space - Interior
Sail> Liva > i20>Figo

Sail
Best of the lot in terms of cabin space. Can seat 5 people comfortably.
Good leg room at front and rear both.
Seats have good support and rear seat is deep with reclining roof gives it a sedan feel.
Very supportive headrests at the back.


Liva
Massive space for the rear benchers, 3 adults can sit easily without overlapping shoulders.

i20
Has comfortable big seats, spacewise its decent all over.

Figo
Cramped in comparison to the rest. Narrow seats and low seating doesn't help either.
Rear seats have better leg space. Travelling with 5 adults would be a compromise.

Space - Boot
Figo>i20>Sail= Liva

All the cars have pretty good boot space.
Can't be the deciding factor.

Driveability
City
Liva>Figo>Sail>i20

Liva's engine is very well tuned for city driving. Pulls effortlessly like a petrol and the power is linear.
Engine's feel is quite similar to an innova, robust & pulls the same with minimum and maximum load.
I think this engine would outlast all the other CRDIs.
Only downside is that it doesn't like to revved beyond 3k RPM.

Figo's engine has a very good bottom end torque. Torque kicks in around 2k RPM but doesn't pull like Liva in 3rd gear @ 20kph.

Sail has a better tuned DDIS engine but the 1st / 2nd gearing is dead. You need to push it to get going. Once in 3rd gear, its very strong and starts pulling
like a locomotive.

i20 is pretty passive for city driving due to its high gearing.

Highway
i20 >> Figo = Sail = Liva

Of all CRDIs, only i20 loves to be revved. In 5th gear, the turbo kicks around 100kph, then the relentless
torque launches itself. On the highways, you would reach 140kph and won't even realise until you look at the speedo.

Ergonomics
Sail> i20 = Liva > Figo
Sail with big doors makes ingress and egress really easy. Dash is also well sorted to load stuff.
i20 and Liva are on the same lines, neither exceptional nor bad.
Figo comes in last due to its low seating and narrow seats

Ride Quality
Sail> Liva > i20 > Figo

Sail is very composed on rough surface and flat highways. Insulation is also pretty good.
Liva is comfortable but insulation is ordinary, potholes thud seeps into the cabin.
i20 is absorbs the rough surface well but the ride is bouncy at the rear.
Figo city speed ride is stiff in comparison and at high speeds it has a very balanced ride.

Highway manners

Figo > Liva > Sail = i20

Figo with its brilliant chassis and stiff suspension setup is the undisputed handling king.
Sail and i20 don't inspire much confidence due to its light steering, balance and braking compensates for it.
Liva's steering is also light at high speeds and has a tendency to center.


VFM

Figo > Sail > i20 (*Liva)

Figo Titanium : 6.5 lacs OTR
Sail LS ABS : 6.9 lacs OTR
i20 Sportz : 7.78 lacs OTR
Liva GD : 7.1 lacs OTR

*Liva can be termed as VFM if you can live with those interiors and tin can frame. Engine and chassis is bulletproof and you have Toyota backup.

[sups]

Originally Posted by kpzen

Figo Titanium : 6.5 lacs OTR
Sail LS ABS : 6.9 lacs OTR
i20 Sportz : 7.78 lacs OTR
Liva GD : 7.1 lacs OTR

*Liva can be termed as VFM if you can live with those interiors and tin can frame. Engine and chassis is bulletproof and you have Toyota backup.

Excellent comparo kpzen. Agree with most of your points. But the pricing is quite different in Pune:

Figo Titanium : 7.15 lacs OTR
Sail LS ABS : 7.31 lacs OTR
i20 Sportz : did not check
Liva GD : 6.7 lacs OTR

Naturally it makes Liva so vfm except for those interiors and NVH and of course suspension noise.

[anu21v]

Originally Posted by sups

2. The doors in SAIL are thicker than Liva. When the doors are closed with a little more force than usual, there is a "clanky" sound. It gave me an impression that build is better than Liva for sure, but not by a big margin.

I don't know why people compare the build quality just by the door-shut sound. The shut-lines of Sail are much better as compared to Liva, one look on the gap between the Bumper and body, Liva looks flimsier than any of the maruthis.

890 Kgs of Liva is definitely without any sort of crash-norms and light wt surely affects long term durability (IMO). sail at 1120 KG is almost 200 KG more weight, most of which would have come because of steel and should not just add to long term durability of sail but also can be life saver if some untoward incidence occur.

Originally Posted by sups

... SAIL and now has a waiting time of 1.5 months.

wow, looks like a good t-Bhp review is reflecting in early adapters' purchases

Originally Posted by kpzen

Figo vs Sail vs i20 vs Liva

Looks & Design:
i20 = Sail > Figo >> Liva

....
...

If you can also add
a) Build Quality/Sturdiness
c) Crash Performance/Safety
d) Serviceability/Cost
e) Overall

And most importantly add Swift/Punto/Polo as well in the comparison. Punto even though dud in sales remain a good benchmark in overall vehicle quality/desirability.

Looks great comparison indeed.

[sups]

Originally Posted by anu21v

I don't know why people compare the build quality just by the door-shut sound. The shut-lines of Sail are much better as compared to Liva, one look on the gap between the Bumper and body, Liva looks flimsier than any of the maruthis.

May be I should coin my words slightly differently . The kerb weight of SAIL diesel is almost 150 kg more than that of liva and it does reflect overall. I mentioned about doors as we use them most frequently and a fiat-like or vento-like "thud" reassures so much everytime. No doubt, SAIL is a better built product than Liva.

You being an UVA owner for last few years, did you face any spare part availability issue anytime during your ownership?

[kpzen]

Originally Posted by anu21v

If you can also add
a) Build Quality/Sturdiness
c) Crash Performance/Safety
d) Serviceability/Cost
e) Overall
.

Build Quality/Sturdiness
i20> Figo = Sail > Liva

Crash Performance/Safety
Cant test it, no ?
i20 should be the winner.

Serviceability/Cost
Liva > Figo > i20 (Sail, only time will tell)

Originally Posted by anu21v

And most importantly add Swift/Punto/Polo as well in the comparison. Punto even though dud in sales remain a good benchmark in overall vehicle quality/desirability.

Looks great comparison indeed.

Comparison was for diesel hatchbacks (with ABS) costing < 7 lacs.
Hence, Swift, Polo and Punto were not considered.

i20 got it in, because Hyundai offered me a TD on the same day when i was testing other cars.

[anu21v]

Originally Posted by sups

May be I should coin my words slightly differently . The kerb weight of SAIL diesel is almost 150 kg more than that of liva and it does reflect overall. I mentioned about doors as we use them most frequently and a fiat-like or vento-like "thud" reassures so much everytime. No doubt, SAIL is a better built product than Liva.

You being an UVA owner for last few years, did you face any spare part availability issue anytime during your ownership?

My car has never been in service station for more than 8 hours in any of the previous 6-7 services, despite that one breakdown due to my own fault. This 8 hour period is basically the time between morning drop and evening pick . It might be just because in NCR there are so many good chevy service stations. I had to never even check if there are any parts to be replaced. The most notorious of the parts like Air-Conditioning, electricals, gears, nothing has failed ever not even once and not even a screaching noise so far.

You might be wondering whether its real well worshipped car; to be fair I never gave any extra attention to car except that i switched to Synthetic oil after first service. I have had infact numerous small accidents, part and parcel of NCR driving conditions, which had lead to many body bumps but they were so small (in many parts due to the car's sturdiness)it was not worth spending any penny. So far it has been real fill,shut and go. Touchwood to that.

[sups]

Originally Posted by anu21v

My car has never been in service station for more than 8 hours in any of the previous 6-7 services, despite that one breakdown due to my own fault. This 8 hour period is basically the time between morning drop and evening pick . It might be just because in NCR there are so many good chevy service stations. I had to never even check if there are any parts to be replaced. The most notorious of the parts like Air-Conditioning, electricals, gears, nothing has failed ever not even once and not even a screaching noise so far.

Thats great to know, especially for a prospective buyer of sail like me. Chevy service in Pune is not as good as in your area, but not bad either. Previous owners have mixed feedback about the service of chevy vehicles.

[suhaas307]

Originally Posted by kpzen

Sail
Nicely put up, fine touches here and there.
Quality is good with no visible panel gaps and no loose ends.
Gear knob placement could have been placed a little ahead.
RPM meter is weird would take sometime to get used to.

Sail is very composed on rough surface and flat highways. Insulation is also pretty good.

Highway manners

Sail and i20 don't inspire much confidence due to its light steering, balance and braking compensates for it.

VFM

Figo > Sail > i20 (*Liva)

Hey kpzen

It's great to see that our observations tally, particularly the placement of the gear-shifter. I too found it to be positioned a few inches behind the ideal position.

The Figo remains the undisputed VFM king of diesel hatchbacks. The Liva is a great car and the Sail runs it very close, perhaps even pipping it in several departments. What's working against the Sail is the price-tag which appears to be on the higher side, given that the Liva has the holy T badge going for it.

Originally Posted by kpzen

LiVa
Speedometer reminds me of the school days - art class, two mountains and a shining sun in between.

[Abhi_abarth]

Originally Posted by sups

How was the ride, engine, NVH etc vis a vis i20 that your friend was about to buy? Some more details would help.

We had a brief ride as 3 of us took turn on the steering wheel . The car has done 35 KM only. Low end torque was good. Cabin noise was silent. Braking was good too. Just that after riding an i20 you might find the Sail bland due to the interiors. Otherwise the ride quality, NVH, braking and power is at par with the i20 CRDi engine. We were very happy with the cabin space too.

I opened up the hood to check the noise levels and could hear loud rattling noise, closed the bonnet and the noise minimized significantly. Thanks to the sound insulation under the bonnet. (i20 doesn't have it).

However, I couldn't convince my friend for this as he was bowled over the Korean beauty. Was happy that at least I could change his decision from a POLO.

Originally Posted by gemi_kk

Swift VDI costs 7.19. Correcting the price. Dzire costs 7.9. The showroom pricing catalogues show it as 7.25 something. One needs to calculate the life tax at 12%. the catalogues will have something around 15% and you need to deduct the handling charges.

If i am not wrong. Swift VDI comes with Music system and Electrically outside rear view mirrors and Power windows.

I agree that Swift is expensive but down the line you would reap the same benifits. It might be either resale value or service/spares availability.

The prices mentioned were on road prices quoted by Maruti and inclusive of taxes, handling charges. Not sure if they should be charging handling charges here in Hyderabad.

Swift Vdi doesn't come with Music system. I mentioned it as a value for money since for the same pricing I am getting a fully loaded, award winning engine, loads of cabin space and best of all the safety features which take first seat for me. Of course, people might have different opinion on it.

[puchoo]

Did the dealer tell you this figure? I honestly find it hard to believe , in the sense that , we have not really seen it become a runaway success yet so where did the waiting period come from , would be interesting to also try and understand how many units Chevrolet is manufacturing for the car as well monthly. Maybe they are being extremely conservative to the point that waiting period is not owing to the popularity of the car but rather supply being low?

Originally Posted by sups

now has a waiting time of 1.5 months.

[Mpower]

Originally Posted by suhaas307

The Figo remains the undisputed VFM king of diesel hatchbacks. The Liva is a great car and the Sail runs it very close, perhaps even pipping it in several departments.

Originally Posted by kpzen

Crash Performance/Safety
Cant test it, no ?

The govt does that for you !!

I know i-20 and Figo have Euro NCAP ratings. Not sure about the Sail. Probably has a CNCAP rating??

Liva is NOT crash tested by Toyota because its a poor people's car but still they want to charge more than Figo !!!

[sups]

Originally Posted by puchoo

Did the dealer tell you this figure? I honestly find it hard to believe

Yes, it was straight from the dealer. Hard to believe, indeed. Just to check I told them I will book it now if you can deliver by diwali. They said they cannot deliver by that time.

Moreover they are not giving free even a mud-flap. Its very irritating. IMHO the vehicle is overpriced by about 30K.

[puchoo]

Well i can understand them not giving anything for free right now , after all the car has just been launched and any sign of a discount might be perceived to be detrimental to the car -i.e. its lets give some freebies because the car is not selling.

On the point of waiting list , i am in agreement with you - hard to believe.

Originally Posted by sups

Yes, it was straight from the dealer. Hard to believe, indeed. Just to check I told them I will book it now if you can deliver by diwali. They said they cannot deliver by that time.

Moreover they are not giving free even a mud-flap. Its very irritating. IMHO the vehicle is overpriced by about 30K.