[subratasenn]

Originally Posted by sups

Excellent comparo kpzen. Agree with most of your points. But the pricing is quite different in Pune:

Figo Titanium : 7.15 lacs OTR
Sail LS ABS : 7.31 lacs OTR
i20 Sportz : did not check
Liva GD : 6.7 lacs OTR

Naturally it makes Liva so vfm except for those interiors and NVH and of course suspension noise.

Yes you are right. In Kolkata too, Liva GD emerges a clear winner in terms of pricing. The most VFM car. The current price in Kolkata:

Sail LS ABS: 7.23 lakh OTR
Figo Titanium: 6.96 lakh OTR
Liva GD: 6.57 lakh OTR

Originally Posted by Mpower

Liva is NOT crash tested by Toyota because its a poor people's car but still they want to charge more than Figo !!!

Not really. Figo costs lesser if you settle for a non-ABS model (up to ZXi). If you decide to have ABS in your car, Figo costs way more than Liva GD. Because Figo provides ABS only in the Titanium model. You can check the price quoted above. I would let go a music system in a car and would rather opt for one with ABS.

[tj123]

Originally Posted by Mpower

The govt does that for you !!

Liva is NOT crash tested by Toyota because its a poor people's car but still they want to charge more than Figo !!!

I am not sure why ARAI does not mandate a crash worthiness test in India ?, more and more cars are on the highways and so many lives are lost due to our poor safety standards.

[anu21v]

Originally Posted by Mpower

The govt does that for you !!

I know i-20 and Figo have Euro NCAP ratings. Not sure about the Sail. Probably has a CNCAP rating??

Liva is NOT crash tested by Toyota because its a poor people's car but still they want to charge more than Figo !!!

I think Ford Figo might still have that Crash-rating-steel intact, however I truly doubt Indian i20 is NCAP worthy at all. AFAIK, Hyundai sells both i10 and I20 from Indian plant to europe but there is fair bit of differentiation between the export car and India sold car. As far as structurals go, that NCAP package is surely missing out from India i10/i20 cars. This has to be mainly due to absence of any crash-norms in India.

Also LIVA brazil is 4 Star crash ratings however it appears there has been fair bit of engineering work done to get that crash rating. Will put some weight comparos of India bound cars and their Crash-Norm compliant international avataars.

[RSR]

Originally Posted by anu21v

I think Ford Figo might still have that Crash-rating-steel intact, however I truly doubt Indian i20 is NCAP worthy at all. AFAIK, Hyundai sells both i10 and I20 from Indian plant to europe but there is fair bit of differentiation between the export car and India sold car. As far as structurals go, that NCAP package is surely missing out from India i10/i20 cars. This has to be mainly due to absence of any crash-norms in India.

Also LIVA brazil is 4 Star crash ratings however it appears there has been fair bit of engineering work done to get that crash rating. Will put some weight comparos of India bound cars and their Crash-Norm compliant international avataars.

I believe there are no structural differences between the Indian i20 and i10 and their European counterparts, or any car that is sold in India that is also exported to Europe from the same plant, for that matter. It takes a lot of (costly) work to make engineering changes to a monocoque on the same production line, and thanks to this fact, Indians get exactly the very same structure as Europeans do, from cars made on the same assembly line in the same plant.

Of course, the cars sold here lack the safety features that Europeans get as standard, on the lower variants especially (things like ABS, ESP, airbags, certified ISOFIX seats etc.) So, they (lower variants) probably do not meet the excellent Euro-NCAP star ratings when compared to the export models which get such features as standard. But the structure remains the same nevertheless.

Mere kerb weight differences do not mean the structure is altered. Some of these safety components are quite heavy and along with weight differences in other components, such as larger (and heavier) wheels and tyres, for instance, it may add up to a fair amount of weight, on exactly the same monocoque structure.

So customers buying a car in India that is also exported to Europe made on the same assembly line in the same plant only need to pester the manufacturer to provide all the safety equipment that comes as standard on the Euro-spec variants (that are certified by Euro-NCAP) at least on the top variants, to make sure they get the same car as customers in Europe.

[anu21v]

Originally Posted by RSR

I believe there are no structural differences between the Indian i20 and i10 and their European counterparts, or any car that is sold in India that is also exported to Europe from the same plant, for that matter. It takes a lot of (costly) work to make engineering changes to a monocoque on the same production line, and thanks to this fact, Indians get exactly the very same structure as Europeans do, from cars made on the same assembly line in the same plant.

Of course, the cars sold here lack the safety features that Europeans get as standard, on the lower variants especially (things like ABS, ESP, airbags, certified ISOFIX seats etc.) So, they (lower variants) probably do not meet the excellent Euro-NCAP star ratings when compared to the export models which get such features as standard. But the structure remains the same nevertheless.

Mere kerb weight differences do not mean the structure is altered. Some of these safety components are quite heavy and along with weight differences in other components, such as larger (and heavier) wheels and tyres, for instance, it may add up to a fair amount of weight, on exactly the same monocoque structure.

So customers buying a car in India that is also exported to Europe made on the same assembly line in the same plant only need to pester the manufacturer to provide all the safety equipment that comes as standard on the Euro-spec variants (that are certified by Euro-NCAP) at least on the top variants, to make sure they get the same car as customers in Europe.

All I can say is, I know that there are structural difference based on facts not because of some hearsay. Just Trust me on this. Engineering money spent vs material cost saving, its material cost saving that always wins, especially when you implement the dual specification and dual engineering drawings at the design stage itself.

[RSR]

Originally Posted by anu21v

All I can say is, I know that there are structural difference based on facts not because of some hearsay. Just Trust me on this. Engineering money spent vs material cost saving, its material cost saving that always wins, especially when you implement the dual specification and dual engineering drawings at the design stage itself.

Cost cutting is indeed implemented by manufacturers, especially in markets where regulation is lax or nonexistent, like ours. But to what extent? One can be sure that they have omitted active safety features (add-ons like airbags etc.) and even used cheaper (and lower quality) seats etc. but I would tend to give them the benefit of the doubt when it comes to deliberately weakening the structure, considering the practicality, effort and costs.

What makes me give them the benefit of the doubt is that Hyundai (for instance) seems to use the same quality dashboard for its European and Indian models (of course, with maybe a different colour, ICE or things like that). If they can do that, then they would not take the trouble of weakening the structure.

I remember that the i20 was originally never meant for India but only for exports, though they made it here. They initially released the i20 in India in limited variants and numbers after they started making the right-hand drive models for the UK and similar markets. It was priced at a premium for the quality and even came with unoptimised features for India (like the weak Euro-spec aircon compressor). So I would believe they had no intention to, and did not make the structure any weaker for India.

Of course, I could be wrong on this. There is a fair chance of such things happening when the export of a model to Europe (and not other Third World countries) is stopped due to the launch of its successor model, but is still on sale in India, where it is positioned lower by implementing serious cost-cutting (Suzuki with its Alto or Hyundai with its Santro). But for a current model made for Europe/First World countries and India on the same production line, I guess I need to see the differences clearly, at least in pictures/videos or in the form of different drawings/part numbers to know that they can resort to such a thing.

[Deep Blue]

From the sides, it looks like a bigger Figo and it does seem so in all aspects, size,space, power, torque,price etc. Seems to be new best VFM car for the family guy who can afford a single car. But the precise steering and sharp handling of the Figo still puts a good smile on my face.

GM also needs to market it more aggressively. There doesnt seem to be any unique marketing point like the Micra with its push button start. Ford highlighted the bluetooth well in the Figo eventhough Punto first came with it. Chevy's other ads were all good but the one for Sail is dull. There just isnt enough buzz about this very capable car. Even team-bhp didnt show so much pre-launch excitement.

Originally Posted by suhaas307

=
But the Ford does have some issues. One being low GC.
The Sail U-VA manages to correct some of these faults. The GC is good and the ride-quality is excellent to say the least. It does not handle as well as the Ford, but it's neutral. The engine is more modern, more refined, surprisingly silent and much more efficient. You also get a whole lot more space on the inside than the Figo.

So IMO, you get a more sorted car for 60k extra. The question is, will you be prepared to spend 60k over and above the Figo's 7.2 OTR tag and benefit from a better ride, better economy and more space? If there is no way you can spend that 60k extra, then buy the Ford. If every 1000 rupee note pinches you, buy the Figo. But if it doesn't, the U-VA still makes more sense to me.

Sorry to nitpick (I suppose it is the Figo loyalist in me speaking)

The GC of both diesel Figo and diesel Sail is 168mm.

My diesel Figo gives as average of 17-18kmpl in Udupi town driving. Will the Sail be significantly more than that?

Agree on all the other points. The Sail needs to be higher priced than the Figo as it is more car than the Figo but around 30000 more would have been nicer. Besides the road tax in Karnataka inflates OTR prices badly.

Excellent review, Thanks a lot

[suhaas307]

Originally Posted by Deep Blue

Sorry to nitpick (I suppose it is the Figo loyalist in me speaking)

The GC of both diesel Figo and diesel Sail is 168mm.

Numbers aren't everything. My Civic's ground-clearance is 170 mm but it manages to scrape pretty much every large and unscientific speed-breaker on the road. Similarly, there are cars with lower ground-clearance in terms of numbers, but their underbellies aren't as prone.

It's all down to the way the suspension has been tuned and the possible softness / spring-travel, I suppose.

I have several friends who complain that many speed-breakers catch them out when they drive their Figos.

Originally Posted by Deep Blue

My diesel Figo gives as average of 17-18kmpl in Udupi town driving. Will the Sail be significantly more than that?

That's pretty good fuel-economy. Don't think the Sail can do much better. Unless of course you drive the nuts off the Figo especially on long journeys, you should get pretty good efficiency. But put some strain on it, and the engine does begin to show its age as the FE does drop a considerable amount.

Originally Posted by Deep Blue

Agree on all the other points. The Sail needs to be higher priced than the Figo as it is more car than the Figo but around 30000 more would have been nicer. Besides the road tax in Karnataka inflates OTR prices badly.

wholeheartedly.

Originally Posted by Deep Blue

Excellent review, Thanks a lot

No, thank you!

Originally Posted by Abhi_abarth

The prices mentioned were on road prices quoted by Maruti and inclusive of taxes, handling charges. Not sure if they should be charging handling charges here in Hyderabad.

Swift Vdi doesn't come with Music system. I mentioned it as a value for money since for the same pricing I am getting a fully loaded, award winning engine, loads of cabin space and best of all the safety features which take first seat for me. Of course, people might have different opinion on it.

Features wise, i am wrong. Thanks for Correcting me
Price wise, i am correct, the exshowroom price of swift VDI is 621000 in hyderabad. Life tax @ 12 would be 74520. so Life tax + price would be 695520 + insurance of 20K.

As you said, sail would make more sense as it comes fully loaded for those who would prefer to use the car for 6-7 years.

[jeeva]

So, the engine in the Sail diesel is the same (almost, except for the turbo and perhaps the level of tuning/maps) 1.3 litre Fiat Multijet engine. If so, how come the same engine is badged as TCDI in the Sail?

There are a couple of threads and several other discussions about the Multijet engine (Maruti/Fiat/Tata) being technologically far superior than the TCDI (Ford) ones, when essentially both are CRDI engines.

[sunsetorange]

@Jeeva, Ford's is Tdci . Basic difference is it is SOHC whereas the MJD is DOHC.

[anu21v]

Originally Posted by HIGHNOON

.Whatever else suzuki may be good at , it surely aint no better than tata when it comes to sturdiness let alone being perfect at it ( which i believe no manufacturer is - but no suzuki car in india is anywhere as safe as the fiat punto / skoda fabia / hyundai i20 / vw polo /ford figo / indica vista ,if i am not mistaken ) also ask any tab cab driver how safe is the toyota itios.

Lets take out Vista from that list,reasons later. Etios is no good as far quality/sturdiness is concerned and lets not expect any crash-norms specifications from indian Etios, It sure is a supremely budget car meant for 'T' badge lovers which is mostly selling in Taxi Segment. Wide open panel gaps and Bumper Design tells the story of an 80s car (1000, Esteem), only saving grace is headlamp and Tail-lamp which are stylish in Liva. The ultra-light paper thin weight doesn't inspire any confidence to me.

Suzuki Swift and Ritz are far-far better than Etios-Liva any given day whether sturdiness/Crash Norms or quality is concerned. Sail-UVA, atleast on-paper with reviews, sure looks far better than any of these cars from Tata-Toyota-Maruti stable in this segment save swift as far as CrashNorms-Sturdiness-Quality-Build-ride goes.

Lower weight but better engineering may make cars safe. but i do not think thats what is being done in india. specially not by suzuki. I think a renault / nissan hatch of a weight similar to a toyota / suzuki hatch would be safer in a crash than the later jap cars.
Occupants of a quanto may just fare better in a crash better than a ertiga . If mahindra starts to make 'em as light and flimsy as suzuki the mahindra diesel engines would put all to shame in the fuel efficiency.

Renault/Nissan infact to me looks the most honest of the cars. They would not have made a different set of specs as far as Indian cars are concerned, simply because their prime orientation is export sales and their Indian sales expectation must be so low they wouldn't design a new spec. Maruti-Hyundai are different ball game altogether. Their significant production volumes from Indian factories are sold in India and so if they design twin specs as long as it complies with local regulation there is nothing wrong.

Mahindra Quanto could not have been with the lower weight simply because it wasn't ground-up work. It started with Xylo's Chassis-and -frame design which meant they could never have gone down on weight factor. Mahindras so far do not have much experience in Monocoque vehicle ( their only vehicle is Renault Logan) and i don't expect them to have engineering expertise of crash-norms, which is why I would still say Ertiga will fare better than Quanto in crash norms. Chassis-and -frame design comes with its own inbuilt flaws as far as crash norms.

Suzuki's cars in india atleast creak groan squeal almost as much as old gen tatas let alone the current platform. Suzuki suspension, ride quality , build quality is nowhere as good as the vista platform , though some may be better in handling ,engine , drivetrain tech and long term reliability.

Do not agree. Its quite the opposite. Suzuki are no better than Nissan/Renault/Hyundai but much better than Tata. There is no comparison.

The best engine ( diesel ) from the suzuki is still a fiat / gm derived one. The new wagon r , estilo is especially terrible in build quality.
suzuki wouldnt have made it so big in india without bigtime political patronage from one FAMILY.

That seems a good strategy from Suzuki. Others should take a leaf out of that strategy.

But after having used fiat, tata , mahindra , renault mahindra , hyundai , maruti cars, i have come to appreciate the value that the home grown manufacturers bring to the table. they are still learning the ropes but are getting better. if its quality i seek i may now go for the European makers VW, SKODA,Honda and even hyundai .

Well there is absolutely no two thoughts that Indian Companies are way better than when it comes to frugal engineering and way better market insights than its international counterparts. Thats the precise reason they are able to fend off competition better than what everyone expects.

Tata's Quality has taken a giant leap,from its very own dismal levels, but it still is nowhere near any of its counter-parts listed there. Tata Vehicle, especially Vista is so sad as far as quality goes, Except that quadrajet engine and the space there nothing is worth wasting the words describing it. Really bad suspensions (Old Indica had better) chassis is loose and breaking is pathetic, stability in cornering lets not talk abt it. Once a vista guy drives other cars he instantly knows what he has missed out on in the name of low price. Nevertheless, Tatas are still improving and as the regulation grows and with the help of Jag-LR learning, I expect them to come at par with International competition and do way better than suzuki.

[Abhi_abarth]

Originally Posted by gemi_kk

Price wise, i am correct,

My bad buddy ! Yes, the prices mentioned by you are correct. I checked the price list today.

Sorry, got confused with too many quotations in hand

BTW, my friend took the delivery of i20 Magna (O) 1.4 yesterday. Couldn't change his decision for Sail U-VA.

Originally Posted by Abhi_abarth

My bad buddy ! Yes, the prices mentioned by you are correct. I checked the price list today.

Sorry, got confused with too many quotations in hand

BTW, my friend took the delivery of i20 Magna (O) 1.4 yesterday. Couldn't change his decision for Sail U-VA.

No worries mate!!

I have been running through these so called showrooms for my purchase, so i do remember these values.

Even i20 is a good car. Wish him on my behalf.

[subratasenn]

Originally Posted by anu21v

Lets take out Vista from that list,reasons later. Etios is no good as far quality/sturdiness is concerned and lets not expect any crash-norms specifications from indian Etios, It sure is a supremely budget car meant for 'T' badge lovers which is mostly selling in Taxi Segment. Wide open panel gaps and Bumper Design tells the story of an 80s car (1000, Esteem), only saving grace is headlamp and Tail-lamp which are stylish in Liva. The ultra-light paper thin weight doesn't inspire any confidence to me.

Suzuki Swift and Ritz are far-far better than Etios-Liva any given day whether sturdiness/Crash Norms or quality is concerned. Sail-UVA, atleast on-paper with reviews, sure looks far better than any of these cars from Tata-Toyota-Maruti stable in this segment save swift as far as CrashNorms-Sturdiness-Quality-Build-ride goes.

By what logic? Where are the standard crash norms in India and where are they tested? Etios Liva has got a crash test rating of 4 its Brazil version. You can check this: http://indianautosblog.com/2012/11/t...cap-crash-test

I am assuming that you are following a logic that the Indian version has been diluted and would not pass this rating? How do we know that Suzuki has not done that?

Originally Posted by anu21v

Renault/Nissan infact to me looks the most honest of the cars. They would not have made a different set of specs as far as Indian cars are concerned, simply because their prime orientation is export sales and their Indian sales expectation must be so low they wouldn't design a new spec. Maruti-Hyundai are different ball game altogether. Their significant production volumes from Indian factories are sold in India and so if they design twin specs as long as it complies with local regulation there is nothing wrong.

Well, now should I would go by your logic again? Nissan Micra, in the same crash test which Etios Liva went through fared poorly and got a poor rating of 2 (when Liva got 4 and VW Polo got 3). Please refer to the same report again http://indianautosblog.com/2012/11/t...cap-crash-test

Now, your perception is Nissan is honest, and they are providing Micra in India with a poor crash rating of 2. Or they are so are honest to India that they have reinforced their car for Indian market?

I didn't get your logic right at all on Etios (and obviously Micra and other cars) and would like to hear the real logic. Logic -- not perception or hearsay.

Why dump a few cars (like Etios/Liva) when none of the cars have performed crash tests here?

All this is off-topic though in SAIL thread, and moderators please remove my post and a few previous ones linked to mine if you think so.