[jayantvs]

Originally Posted by k88k

Water supply is a problem in this area. Have seen a lot of tractor laden water tankers doing their duties from May to Mid-July. The condition has improved due to recent rains.

I stay near Haralur road, our apartment solely depends on the water tankers. We face regular water problems for the past 2 years during the summer months either due to unavailability or due to demands of the water mafia. So you may need to consider this if the apartments depends heavily on water tankers.

2BHK is sufficient for our current needs. But the point is why not a 3BHK for a similar price? The Bommasandra builder checks out so far. Need to vet the Haralur Road one. Another point is that, Haralur road property is an year and a half old and still has a flat or two vacant. This looks shady to me, for in such a locality how can a flat go unsold for 1.5 years.

3 BHK is better but again it is far from the city if you do not have a problem with that then go for a 3 BHK if the carpet area is better. There is a metro station planned near Bommasandra. The 2 BHK flat may be unsold due to various reasons, there are not many buyers at the moment. A lot depends upon the reputation of the builder as well, if it looks shady stay away from the builder. What is the name of the apartment on Haralur road?

Originally Posted by jacs

...Can someone throw light on the trend and whether it makes sense to hold real estate investments for another couple of years more.

The market is still bad with lot of unsold inventory and prices have been stagnant. You can wait for another 6-7 months or more if you can as RERA is being implemented now which may result in some improvement.

Sorry mods for the back to back posts. Please merge.

[k88k]

Originally Posted by jayantvs

3 BHK is better but again it is far from the city if you do not have a problem with that then go for a 3 BHK if the carpet area is better. There is a metro station planned near Bommasandra. The 2 BHK flat may be unsold due to various reasons, there are not many buyers at the moment. A lot depends upon the reputation of the builder as well, if it looks shady stay away from the builder. What is the name of the apartment on Haralur road?

RV Road - Bommasandra metro stretch will get commissioned by 2020.

The developer is Pearlite and the apartment is Lakeside Apartment at Harlur Road. I haven't heard about the builder before and titles/papers are yet to be cleared. If things check out, might as well go for Harlur Road property for the locality it offers.

It is to be mentioned that the Bommasandra builder wants to keep things by the book, which is a good and adds to our confidence.

[msvg]

Hi Creative420,

I am also on the same page as u are , looking for a big plot(30*50 and above) for both Eco home and garden preferably in the outskirts of the city where there is peace and calmness.
Considering Mysore / Mandya / Chikmangalore but only worry is source of income though.
Have you found any plot or house ? keep me posted.

[rahul_jo]

This post is slightly inspired by my recent experiences in dealing with some rather unreasonable people.

There has been a major talk about the change in our country however why is there still so much oldness in this new India?

It all starts with the basic Indian mentality. Honestly, we value rules/regulations as much as a turtle values an algebra book (in short, we don't value it at all).

We have plenty of rules in this country, but not enough people who are willing to follow those rules unsupervised.

You see so many people even in this very day and age, who look around at a red light to check if there are any cops around and if not, they look for that gap to pull a quick one and jump the red light.

Yet these are the same people who would openly point fingers at the Govt or would try to find someone to blame when something major happens.

I had 3 recent incidents where I literally pulled my hair out of utter frustration. Let me talk about the strangest one as if I talk about them all, this post wouldn't end.

I recently rented out one of my commercial properties to this guy (he operates a huge restaurant). I work online and basically market abroad. So I haven't had much of an experience doing REAL business in India. So I recently got into this space.

Okay, so let's first name this guy Mr. Unreasonable (this name suits him the most and you'll know why soon). We did a standard court agreement for 9 years with the lock in being at 3 years. Which means he can't leave the premises before 3 years and if he does the security will be forfeited and he'd have to pay the rent for the entire 3 years before vacating.

He calls me after 4 months and says that his operation isn't profitable and wants me to bring the rent down by 50%. I nicely denied this and said in case he wants to vacate, he may do so by entertaining the agreement he has with me.

Technically the agreement states that he can only leave by paying me the remainder of the rent for the entire 3 years plus the security deposit of 6 months will be forfeited.

We met face to face along with the builder of the mall and after a long enough discussion I noticed something interesting.

It all started with him threatening that he won't pay this even though there is an agreement which very quickly mellowed down to him almost begging me to look at his situation and waive this.

I clearly was thinking win-win. So I directly asked him alright Mr. Unreasonable, what exactly are you looking for?

He said - Please waive the lock in terms which means I can't pay you the rent for 3 years and you can keep the security deposit at the moment and deduct it month by month for the entire time the shop remains vacant.

However, if I get a new tenant then I should refund the rest of the security deposit to him.

Which means if I get a new tenant after 2 months, then I could deduct 2 months rent and pay him back the remainder of the 4 months. So he pitched this himself and after thinking long enough, I said YES to it.

Here is where it starts to get interesting now.

He agreed to this in front of 3 other people and we agreed to do a written agreement on this a couple of days later.

I magically get a call from him early morning on a Monday with him saying - Oh you know, I was thinking. Why should I let you keep the security when I am not even staying there? Why should I give you free money?

I literally felt an internal earthquake take place at hearing this and spent a good half an hour explaining how this is exactly what he wanted, how he shook hands on it and now he is acting as if this never even happened in the first place.

What happened next is rather weird but interesting and I won't add anymore to this post, however, I guess you guys get the point I am trying to make.

This hasn't happened just once but keeps happening over and over again only when dealing with Indian people.

This exact thing actually got me thinking. As Indians we don't have a win-win mentality. We rather have a win-lose mentality. I am not saying 100% of Indians are like this but I am talking about the majority.

This very concept leads me to the subject of CHANGE. As a country we are trying to change ourselves from outside in. We are trying to implement laws, make rules etc, but there is very little change taking place in our basic psychology.

The change has to take place inside out. I doubt that any Govt, body or even an organization can bring about any change unless and until we work on our basic belief systems, mentality and how we operate in a day to day basis.

I believe we are the only country where you'll see 3-4 cars competing for that single empty lane with all of them trying to get through before the other.

We are the only country where you'll see a couple of cars pulled over in the middle of the street, causing a massive traffic jam with both the owners fist fighting over a tiny little dent they caused each other.

So what do you guys think? Can any Govt ever change us when there is very little work done on the way we think? I believe we are still extremely old even though we claim to be new.

[Nav-i-gator]

Well, to me:

1. the initial agreement was too harsh (unless the monthly rent was substantially lower than the prevailing market rates) and (maybe you didn't mention it here) liability on you is not there. To me, it's not a win-win agreement at the first place. We either make the entry difficult and exit clause easy (high rent with easy quit options) or vice-versa.

2. In order to ensure he honor the agreement, you should have taken post dated cheques for 3 years from him.

3. A better re-negotiated deal would be where the tenant would have felt tempted to keep trying and start earning a profit. That way, he would have earned something and later you can increase the rent (which he would not oppose much, given his business has started to earn), the mall property prices would have gone up (individual shops earning profit means mall is potentially earning too) and your property would have appreciated substantially over a period of time (win-win for all)


As to the question of "changing India", it's a systemic problem. For a start, I believe, everyone of us, every citizen should feel the fear of law, really and uniformly (no relaxation basis the "connections" one have with police/politicians).

[civic-sense]

While leasing commercial establishments, leasing terms are tough and usually for a long term. It is more in the interest of the lessee.

Say, I lease a place for starting a restaurant and after a year, when the business starts flourishing, the owner chucks me out and starts a restaurant at the same place with a similar sounding name, all my business goes to the landlord.

True with most kind of businesses.

[rahul_jo]

Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator

Well, to me:

1. the initial agreement was too harsh (unless the monthly rent was substantially lower than the prevailing market rates) and (maybe you didn't mention it here) liability on you is not there. To me, it's not a win-win agreement at the first place. We either make the entry difficult and exit clause easy (high rent with easy quit options) or vice-versa.

It was a standard agreement which applies to most brands (Pizza hut, Mc Donalds etc). I can't name his brand, however, he had a franchise of a very reputed brand.

It was indeed a win-win. A 3 year lock-in means, I can't ask him to vacate the premises before the end of 3 years and if I do so, I'd be liable to pay him damages.

So it works both ways and he was well aware of how these things function as he already has other branches.

Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator

3. A better re-negotiated deal would be where the tenant would have felt tempted to keep trying and start earning a profit. That way, he would have earned something and later you can increase the rent (which he would not oppose much, given his business has started to earn), the mall property prices would have gone up (individual shops earning profit means mall is potentially earning too) and your property would have appreciated substantially over a period of time (win-win for all)

He wanted the rent down to 50% when comparatively it is impossible to find another property in the vicinity at that range. He clearly was looking for an excuse to vacate. The issue isn't the negotiation process, the issue was that on the table he told me EXACTLY he wanted. I gave it to him and he came back a few days later denying the original agreement.

The issue is with him backing out from a verbal agreement he made (which he pitched himself), changed his mind suddenly and acted as if we never had that conversation in the first place. It came down to morals and ethics, more than anything else.

I asked him which fruit would he prefer to eat? He said apple. I hand over an apple to him but now suddenly he wants an orange and claims he never asked for an apple.

[Turbanator]

It all starts with the basic Indian mentality.

Agree, anyone who has lived abroad can understand this easily. I think the way we are bought up in an uncertain, competitive world, we have little respect for each other most of the time and going back on commitments is more of a routine. Not just with individuals but with many corporates as well.

Coming to your case, the second agreement made no sense for you. You should have told him clearly that if you get the other tenant, you will return him back else nothing. I cannot make out what are his intentions or how have you drafted the second agreement but I will suggest you find someone else and let him go. After all our health and wellbeing is more important than some money.

[sgiitk]

Ultimately, unless we the aam junta are willing to change there is very little the state can do. It finally boils down to the state of mind. Just see how many people were posting on how to bypass the ban on films on windscreen.

[fordday]

This Indian behavioral trait or culture or whatever you call it has been very well explained and in fact proved with game theory by V Raghunathan in his book "Games Indians Play.."

It makes for an interesting read.

[dailydriver]

I fail to understand the logic behind your argument.

You dealt with a person who obviously lacked foresight and probably had very less - if at all -business acumen; but he possessed the guile to employ every trick in the book to turn the tables on you.

How can this one incident lead you to decide that the country needs to change? Are the rest of the Indians just photocopies of this modern but milder Sherlock? India, like so many others, is not a perfect nation. Nor are its citizens. Why should we be?

We are a nation living on the legacy of a couple of thousand years and the baggage of at least a few hundred. We are not perfect and we like it that way. That tenant of yours is not the representation of a typical Indian but of a certain mindset: a mindset that traverses the boundaries of time and space.

"We are like that only" is an illness that many people are afflicted with. The " we" is a vast variable, more so because India is a nation like none another. I don't need to wax eloquent on "Unity in Diversity" being the basic premise of our constitution. We are as different from each other as chalk and cheese. Yet we stand united on the platform of nationality.

India as a nation cannot be coloured with a single brush.

And, why are we blaming/bringing in the Government here? In a recent incident in Karnataka, the police had to lathicharge the crowd to disperse it. A few got injured and were hospitalised. The media picked up the news and broke it with a bang saying "XYZ's (Chief Minister) Government perpetrates violence on innocent students". Now, was the XYZ in any way connected to the lathicharge? Did he order the police to beat up the protesters? Blaming the Government is a fad these days. I agree that the Government has a long way to go, but expecting it to bring about a change in people's mindset is too much of an expectation. Systematic indoctrination of mind by a Government, even in its noblest form, is an idea that worries me to the core.

Media in general and social media in particular have topsy turvied the way people think. Everything is sensationalised, people are victimised, harrased and pilloried. The pen pushers and the tongue twisters ensconced in their ivory towers accuse, investigate, charge sheet, try, convict and punish the supposed wrongdoers at the drop of a hat. And unlike the traditional system of justice, the verdict is maggisque instant.

I empathise with you for the way your business transaction turned sour. But I am opposed to your generalisations and contextualisation. Still, thanks for putting up this thread and making us think.

[Sawyer]

I understand the frustration. I often despair when I look around at our falling to pieces cities everywhere. In a TBHP context, at having to negotiate my way through city traffic that largely consists of literate - nay, highly educated - people that make up road rules as they go along, suited to their own fierce desire to be the first to reach their personal destination.

And the thing in India is that every problem is gargantuan in size. Making it even more necessary to address each via root causes and long term approaches, while I only see patchy symptom management everywhere like pothole management of crumbling roads. The less said about the exploitative to get and retain power behaviour of our leaders and sevaks the better.

The only thing to be done at an individual level is being the change one wants to see. And lots of Anger Management.

To the posed question, there is a simple answer: None can.

I read a lot of history, and it strikes me that those countries that bootstrapped themselves to where they are today, had to cope with a lot of adversity in their histories, that continued all the way to the two bloodiest wars ever known ending with WW2. Compared to them, India, endowed amply with natural wealth, has been fortunate to have coasted along, by and large. Perhaps there is a price to pay for that.

[rahul_jo]

Originally Posted by dailydriver

I fail to understand the logic behind your argument.

How can this one incident lead you to decide that the country needs to change? Are the rest of the Indians just photocopies of this modern but milder Sherlock? India, like so many others, is not a perfect nation. Nor are its citizens. Why should we be?

Because this hasn't happened once, twice or on some rare occasions. It has happened in one way or another every single time.

I was not looking for perfection. Rather, I was seeking reasonable behavior. Of course we aren't perfect. However, I noticed that people have their own personal meaning of REASON. Sometimes people assume that if they're looking out for their own self-interest the most, they're being reasonable.

Originally Posted by dailydriver

And, why are we blaming/bringing in the Government here?

I never blamed the Government. Rather, I am basically mentioning that no Government can ever do anything unless there is a substantial change in our pre-dominant thinking, psychology and belief system.

You can make 101 rules but how many Indians actually follow them on a day to day basis? Technically I pointed the finger at the basic Indian mindset (which needs to change).

[aargee]

Owing to TBhp rules on attracting an infraction for one liner, I'm bound to write so big, otherwise my answer would've been very simple...

NO

It's only going to get worse & even worse because all problems are only patched & not fixed at root. BTW, I'm a realist not a pessimistic.

In here, the change cannot happen from bottom-top & has to come from top-bottom. Unless the person at top is absolutely in control & has got over 50+ years to rule continuously without being asked questions, it's extremely difficult to bring a positive change. But the system is so damn corrupt that to attain the top position, it corrupts him/her by the time they reach the top. And the vicious cycle continues.

Originally Posted by rahul_jo

It all starts with the basic Indian mentality. Honestly, we value rules/regulations as much as a turtle values an algebra book (in short, we don't value it at all)

I perfectly get what you're saying; will quote a real life experience on roads almost everyday atleast here in Madras...

Scene 1 - All traffic flowing towards left & one guy comes in wrong direction & hits by a car in right direction due to traffic & here's the summary of how people handle such a situation

two-wheeler (TW) - Can't you see I'm coming, why can't you slow down?
Car - Hullo!! You're coming in wrong direction & asking me to slow & yield down for you?
TW - What's your hurry? Why can't you slow down?
Car - Why would I want to slow down when you're doing a mistake; you did a mistake & you got hit
TW - I agree I came in wrong direction, but you came right, you could've avoided the accident right? You didn't & you deliberately came & hit me
Car - I could've avoid due to traffic, this is why you should'nt come in wrong direction
TW - This is how the traffic are these days, if you couldn't control, then don't drive


This is how the blame is passed on despite a mistake; once when I had commited an accident due to brake failure, I called up the police; first question the police asked was, is there a human injury, when I said NO, the constable asked, if he should even visit the premise & it would cost Rs 100 by auto (meaning I've to bear the expense); when I said yes, do come. He hung up & few minutes later, he called up & asked to try & resolve amicably because it would take about 2 hours for him to reach the place. Very rotten system.

In today's system, two wrongs DOES make things appear right...sad state of affair

[abhishek46]

Agree that Indian don't care much for rules etc.
However, the win-lose philosophy is not limited to India alone, it is a worldwide & human tendency.

I have personally faced this numerous times in various European nations, especially while dealing with leasing agencies.