[noopster]

Originally Posted by Samurai

In this thread, lots of weight/fat shaming happens because of stupid formulas like BMI.

Not just on this thread. In general you will find it on most internet forums and often this spills into the real world.

If you are fit enough to have an active life, then absolute weight doesn't matter. Does my uncle at 73 who does field work 8 hours a day, need to lose weight?

Nope, he does not . The reason obesity is rampant today is because we have adopted a sedentary way of work rather than one involving a lot of moving around and natural exercise. Of course there are other factors but someone who gets enough exercise in the course of his regular job need not bother getting on a treadmill or cross-trainer machine 30 minutes a day!

Originally Posted by amitoj

"Fit" and "active" have different meanings for everyone. Do you think people who are not able to do headstands are unfit? I dont think so.

Not necessarily, but you are oversimplifying the point. Samurai can do headstands- he is definitely fitter than me (I can't)! I may aspire to a lower standard of fitness purely because my base is much lower. For people like me, exercise is a chore- a necessary evil and hence we do only the bare minimum necessary. Someone like Samurai who obvious enjoys it and likes challenging himself is to be emulated, not resented

You can not compare your uncle, and Gama pehelvan nonetheless, to today's generation who has a much more sedentary lifestyle. We have weight as a target or goal because we are seeing benefits of these goals in our day to day life.

BMI, body fat % etc. are indicators that work at a general level for MOST people. Problem is when you start focusing on the number at the expense of the intent behind it. I am at BMI 29 currently (same as Samurai, yay!) but if I start congratulating myself and somehow equating our levels of fitness, I am kidding myself. Hope you see the point.

[rajushank84]

I disagree with the premise in many comments here that weight loss is undertaken only for the sake of being healthy.

For many of us, it is also about shameless aesthetics.

[amitoj]

Originally Posted by noopster

Not just on this thread. In general you will find it on most internet forums and often this spills into the real world.

BMI, body fat % etc. are indicators that work at a general level for MOST people. Problem is when you start focusing on the number at the expense of the intent behind it.

To be honest, the only fact that i resent is that people who want to be fit using these indicators are being discouraged. Which is what last few posts seem to be doing. I have tried to emphasize this time and again that if you are happy with ignoring these numbers then that's fine. But for majority of people these numbers are good indicators whether their hard work is bearing any fruit or not.

It is just impossible to focus on these numbers and lose the intent behind these numbers. How would that even work?? Here is how people normally use these numbers:
1. Check your weight, bmi and body fat %age and set that as baseline.
2. Change your diet, get more active.
3. After some time, check your numbers again.
4. Are they moving in the right direction? If yes, then great. Continue doing what you are doing.
5. After some time check again. Have they stopped moving? If yes, and you are happy with where you are, then fine. Continue doing what you are doing. If not, then make more changes to your diet and exercise.
6. Repeat steps 3 to 6.

There will always be cases where people with high body fat %age and BMIs still seem fit doing what they do. Why does that have to be forced down the throat of someone who is aiming to lower their own numbers? This is akin to saying that I know someone who smoked 10 cigarettes a day and lived a good life till 90 and never had any problems, so it is pointless to quit smoking to achieve a healthier life. This may seem like an extreme example but I hope it gets the point across.

We should be using this thread to encourage people to get more active. Not put down or discourage those who are trying to follow a methodical approach that is different from gut feel. No pun intended. But time and again on this thread and the bodybuilding thread I have seen the importance of these well established indicators in the health industry being trivialized.

I am sorry if my responses come across as harsh because I am letting my frustration with such patterns show through.

I am yet to see any evidence of fat shaming here. If I have done that, then I am sorry. Please point me to where I did that so that I can be more careful in future.

[DieselFan]

Good point @Amitoj. There may be a few exceptions but in general the lower the fat in your body the better it is your health. As a matter of fact it may even be true for the exceptions like Samurai. Excess fat is bad for our body. NO TWO WAYS ABOUT THIS FACT. we do not realize this as fat deposits on to us very slowly but surely post 25 yrs of age. If we do not actively address it either with diet or exercise or both then we are in big trouble post 50 yrs. Now-a-days I have seen few of my colleagues/friends of my age are diabetic, have high BP or have Fatty liver or some such disease or other. 3 years back I was boarderline diabetic all because of excess fat (about 17 kgs extra). I lost it and I am feeling twice as energetic as before and my blood sugar levels are in the green. I don't do anything in excess - either dieting or exercising or binging on food. I can now surely say that I am in the top quartile of people of my age in terms of health.

To summarise reducing body fat is MUST to become healthy and avoid all these lifestyle diseases of this generation.

[bblost]

I am a FAT guy.

Weigh something in the 90's.
Not exactly very tall either.
More like 5 feet 9 or 10 depending on the location and time of the day.

I however very comfortably fit into my 34 inch jeans. In fact one of these new age lycra pants, I am fine with a 32 inch jeans as well.

The only trouble with buying smaller jeans is my quads. They are seriously thick.
So any trousers I wear need to be in the comfort mode.

Fitness is a debatable topic.
I rarely fall ill. Maybe a mild fever once in 2 o 3 years.
Strength is fine. At my peek in college I remember doing a dead lift of almost 160 kilos without anyone helping me.

But as I grow older, I am almost 40. I think weights are a unnecessary strain on the body.
I prefer cycling instead.

So I started commuting to office in 2011.
This year in May. The temperatures in Hyderabad peaked at almost 44 degrees.

I would leave for office at 10:30 AM and my return trip would be from 5 PM.

The only thing I needed is about 300 ml of water.
I don't take any supplements. I eat very healthy.

Earlier in the thread, Amitoj spoke about how active he is.
I have a similar life story.
Two young kids at home.
So not only do I help my wife make breakfast, I also make dinner when I come home.
After cycle commuting in 40+ heat for a one way ride of over 18 kms.
That is a total of 37 kms a day.

Since we were talking about food, maybe you can check on what I eat to maintain my 90+ weight https://www.facebook.com/UncomplicatedCooking

I don't trust a statistical tool like BMI for a personal goal like fitness.

Trouser sizes. 100% on this.

My advice to anyone looking for a healthy life style.
Work out like crazy for a month.
Do everything you want. Push yourself to the extreme.

Then buy new clothes.
Discard all the old ones as they should be loose now.

I started in 2011 with a 38 inch waist size.
Now if I am cavalier about my waist size....I have no clothes to wear. This is my warning system.
I still have a 32 inch pant, I cannot fit into.
That is my long term motivation.

[amitoj]

Originally Posted by DieselFan

To summarise reducing body fat is MUST to become healthy and avoid all these lifestyle diseases of this generation.

And here are a few links to support that body fat %age is not some crazy number:
Implication of high-body-fat percentage on cardiometabolic risk in middle-aged, healthy, normal-weight adults.
Conclusion: High BF% is associated with a high cardiometabolic risks, regardless of abdominal obesity

Health Risks Associated With Elevated BMI or Excessive Body Fat
From the article: While a BMI calculation can't provide specifics on the exact amount of fat on a person's body, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reports that there is a direct relationship between an elevated BMI and excessive body fat.

Body fat tied to heart risks in normal-weight adults

Quote: His team found survey participants with the highest body fat percentages were most likely to have high blood pressure and metabolic syndrome, a cluster of risk factors that together can signal heart troubles and diabetes down the line.

Body Composition Information and FAQ’s Sheet

What health effects result from having an over-fat or obese body fat percentage range?
Body fat percentage charts are used as a tool to determine whether an individual is at greater risk for
developing high blood pressure, high cholesterol, diabetes, sleep apnea, cardiovascular disease,
gallstones, osteoarthritis, and certain cancers. The higher your percentage of body fat (above 25% for
women and above 20% for men) the greater your risk for developing these life-threatening chronic
diseases.

Originally Posted by bblost

I started in 2011 with a 38 inch waist size.
Now if I am cavalier about my waist size....I have no clothes to wear. This is my warning system.
I still have a 32 inch pant, I cannot fit into.
That is my long term motivation.

That is awesome! Keep it up!
BMI in isolation is not very useful anyway. One has to see it in combination with weight and body fat %age at the very minimum.

These are relatively cheaper indicators compared to full blood tests.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by amitoj

To be honest, the only fact that i resent is that people who want to be fit using these indicators are being discouraged.

Why does an opposing viewpoint sound like discouragement?

Originally Posted by amitoj

Why does that have to be forced down the throat of someone who is aiming to lower their own numbers?

You don't have to meekly swallow opposing view points. You can consider it, or ignore it or debate it.

Originally Posted by amitoj

I am sorry if my responses come across as harsh because I am letting my frustration with such patterns show through.

This forum doesn't allow rudeness at members during arguments. That is one of the major strength of Team-BHP. Make your points without getting personal. Not hard to do if you have facts on your side.

Originally Posted by amitoj

We should be using this thread to encourage people to get more active.

I don't recall anybody trying to do otherwise.

Originally Posted by amitoj

Not put down or discourage those who are trying to follow a methodical approach that is different from gut feel. No pun intended. But time and again on this thread and the bodybuilding thread I have seen the importance of these well established indicators in the health industry being trivialized.

By health industry I guess you mean Fitness and Weight loss industry.

I trivialize these so called well established indicators because I was into fitness culture much because many of these things suddenly popped up. No different than how Akshaya Tritiya became the best gold buying day 2004 onwards. I worked out in high-end gyms in USA, as well as part of martial arts groups. I have witnessed so many well established things turn out to be wrong.

Just take the BMI myth, how did 25 become the threshold for everybody?

This is how: http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandst...dustry-obesity

An excerpt:

The devil was in the detail – and the detail lay in where you drew the line between "normal" and "overweight". Several colleagues questioned the group's decision to lower the cut-off point for being "overweight" – from a BMI of 27 to 25. Overnight, millions of people around the globe would shift from the "normal" to the "overweight" category.

Professor Judith Stern, vice president of the American Obesity Association, was critical, and suspicious. "There are certain risks associated with being obese … but in the 25-to-27 area it's low-risk. When you get over 27 the risk becomes higher. So why would you take a whole category and make this category related to risk when it isn't?"

Why indeed. Why were millions of people previously considered "normal" now overweight? Why were they being tarred with the same brush of mortality, as James's critics would argue, as those who are genuinely obese?

I asked James where the science for moving the cut-off to BMI 25 had come from. He said: "The death rates went up in America at 25 and they went up in Britain at 25 and it all fits the idea that BMI 25 is the reasonable pragmatic cut-off point across the world. So we changed global policy on obesity."

James says he based this hugely significant decision, one that would define our global understanding of obesity, partly on prewar data provided by US insurance company Met Life. But this data remains questionable, according to Joel Guerin, a US author who has examined the work produced by Met Life's chief statistician Louis Dublin.

"It wasn't based on any kind of scientific evidence at all," according to Guerin. "Dublin essentially looked at his data and just arbitrarily decided that he would take the desirable weight for people who were aged 25 and apply it to everyone."

I was interested in who stood to gain from his report and asked James where the funding for the IOTF report came from. "Oh, that's very important. The people who funded the IOTF were drugs companies."

Originally Posted by amitoj

I am yet to see any evidence of fat shaming here. If I have done that, then I am sorry. Please point me to where I did that so that I can be more careful in future.

Fat shamers never notice they are doing it, but the shamees are acutely aware of it. It could be as simple as "Oh, your BMI is high, you need to reduce it."

Originally Posted by DieselFan

As a matter of fact it may even be true for the exceptions like Samurai. Excess fat is bad for our body. NO TWO WAYS ABOUT THIS FACT. we do not realize this as fat deposits on to us very slowly but surely post 25 yrs of age. If we do not actively address it either with diet or exercise or both then we are in big trouble post 50 yrs. Now-a-days I have seen few of my colleagues/friends of my age are diabetic, have high BP or have Fatty liver or some such disease or other.

I am not an exception. I started workout at 15, when I was still a thin teenager. Even then I was heavier than people of similar build. My weight slowly raised with age, while staying muscular. If I have to lose 15Kgs, it can only come from losing all the muscles. Just losing fat won't do it. But I have no interest in losing muscles. Just fat loss won't take me below 80Kgs, which is why I am setting my goal to 80-82kg than 65-70kgs.

Fitness/Weight-loss is one of those areas which has maximum scientific sounding misinformation. Just because something is methodical, it doesn't have to be right. And there is no ONE right, different things work for different people. What works for you, can only be ascertained after trying it. For example, running never worked for me because of my weight. But I know people of similar build weighing only 68kgs, who can easily run 10K after a month of practice. I have never been able to run more than 5-6 kms. But my weight was very helpful when we sparred or wrestled in the dojo, I could easily push around people of similar build who were lot lighter.

So, if somebody tells you "You need to lose weight", it may not be true at all if you are fit enough to be very active.

And if somebody tells you "Do X, Y and Z and you will lose weight...", it should be taken with a large spoon of salt. No method works for everybody because people are very different.

For example NHS (UK) has published Ten weight loss myths, and I have heard many of those myths from established weight-loss and fitness experts.

And then NHS (UK) has also published 10 Tips for weight-loss.

Originally Posted by rajushank84

- Skip breakfast (overrated myth sold us by the food industry!)

Guess which is the first tip given by NHS?

And guess what? Breakfast skipping is associated with a significantly increased risk of type 2 diabetes.

Proof: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25686619

[amitoj]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Why does an opposing viewpoint sound like discouragement?You don't have to meekly swallow opposing view points. You can consider it, or ignore it or debate it.

It is discouragement when the opposing point of view has no basis in science and studies and is still being pushed around.

Originally Posted by Samurai

This forum doesn't allow lashing out at members during arguments. That is one of the major strength of Team-BHP. Make your points without getting personal. Not hard to do if you have facts on your side.

I am sorry if my terse response hurt your feelings. I didnt realise asking someone's fitness goals was getting personal or hurtful.

Please share the facts that you have on your side. And i mean hard facts and numbers like blood cholestrol levels etc and not subjective number of headstands done in the past. I have posted a few links in my earlier response for your reference.

Originally Posted by Samurai

By health industry I guess you mean Fitness and Weight loss industry.

I trivialize these so called well established indicators because I was into fitness culture much because many of these things suddenly popped up. No different than how Akshaya Tritiya became the best gold buying day 2004 onwards. I worked out in high-end gyms in USA, as well as part of martial arts groups. I have witnessed so many well established things turn out to be wrong.

Just take the BMI myth, how did 25 become the threshold for everybody?

BMI maybe a myth but not body fat %ages. See my previous post.

Originally Posted by Samurai

So, if somebody tells you "You need to lose weight", it may not be true at all if you are fit enough to be very active.

I have seen enough "fit" and "active" relatively young people collapse from heart attacks or develop diabetes to take these two words at face value.

Originally Posted by Samurai

And if somebody tells you "Do X, Y and Z and you will lose weight...", it should be taken with a large spoon of salt. No method works for everybody because people are very different.

Of course it doesn't. But they wont know it till they try it.

EDIT: If you think suggesting someone to be more active or to do something that will help him or her lose weight and get healthier is fat shaming, then I think that is a misconception and over sensitization of the whole issue. If i am wrong, then there is no purpose to this whole thread.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by amitoj

It is discouragement when the opposing point of view has no basis in science and studies and is still being pushed around.

Problem is not with science, but the interpretation. Where did rajushank84's theory of skipping breakfast come from? What science it was based on?

Originally Posted by amitoj

I didnt realise asking someone's fitness goals was getting personal or hurtful.

Oh, it was not hurtful. It was just violating the forum rules.

Originally Posted by amitoj

Please share the facts that you have on your side. And i mean hard facts and numbers like blood cholestrol levels etc and not subjective number of headstands done in the past.

Wish I could, my 4 lab tests since 1992 were all for insurance or employment purpose. So I never got to see the reports. The only lab report I have read happened in 1991 because I had para-typhoid, but that is relevant at this point. After that I never had a need to undergo any lab test for medical reason. My last lab test happened in 2013 I think when I switched insurance. The only point the doctor raised was my BMI, and then she asked whether I do strength training. When I said yes, she said then it can be overlooked. She said rest was fine. In insurance mandated tests, doctor doesn't reveal numbers if they are nominal.

So you'll have to wait until I need to get a medical test done.

Originally Posted by amitoj

BMI maybe a myth but not body fat %ages.

Fat% reading I got from Omron device is very surprising. Apart from the slight gut, I don't really have any area where I can see fat. I need to cross verify the reading some how.

Originally Posted by amitoj

I have seen enough "fit" and "active" relatively young people collapse from heart attacks or develop diabetes to take these two words at face value.

Ok, point taken. But a person who has been fit all his life, generally has a much better feel about his own sense of well being. Those who are not confident, can always go for a medical test.

Originally Posted by amitoj

EDIT: If you think suggesting someone to be more active or to do something that will help him or her lose weight and get healthier is fat shaming, then I think that is a misconception and over sensitization of the whole issue. If i am wrong, then there is no purpose to this whole thread.

Over emphasize on measurements can pressurize people into all kind of drastic action, like skipping breakfast or meals.

I am trying to temporize the thread into a more meaningful one. If somebody comes into the thread asking for weight loss tips, first question should be why. The reasons could be aesthetics, bodybuilding, on medical advice or simply to be healthy. Depending on their need, people with the right experience can guide them. Therefore, we should allow different viewpoints instead of trying to shut it down.

For example, if a member comes into the thread saying "Oh my god, my BMI is 26!!! I want to get back to healthy level. What should I do?" Then we can say "Relax dude, you are fine. Google Smart BMI and check what it says about your BMI".

[amitoj]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Problem is not with science, but the interpretation. Where did rajushank84's theory of skipping breakfast come from? What science it was based on?

That is a valid thing to call out but breakfast is not the bone of contention here. Is it? It is the usage of the combination of body weight, bmi and bf% as a measure of overall fitness that we are talking about. The science behind that is pretty concrete.

Originally Posted by Samurai

Oh, it was not hurtful. It was just violating the forum rules.

I'd like to take this offline.

Originally Posted by Samurai

So you'll have to wait until I need to get a medical test done.

Wouldn't it be prudent for you to wait instead till you get your medical tests done in order to have a debate then? Specially when you are the one asking for facts? Do feel free to post any medical studies that back you up in proving that gut feel to assess your health is enough. I know I have done my part here in providing the facts.

Originally Posted by Samurai

Fat% reading I got from Omron device is very surprising. Apart from the slight gut, I don't really have any area where I can see fat. I need to cross verify the reading some how.

Sure. What does the Navy method say? That's another method to measure bf. Although it seems more generic than Omron.

Originally Posted by Samurai

Ok, point taken. But a person who has been fit all his life, generally has a much better feel about his own sense of well being. Those who are not confident, can always go for a medical test.

That is the misconception I am trying to argue against. One should at least get a health checkup done on a regular basis, confident or not.

Originally Posted by Samurai

Over emphasize on measurements can pressurize people into all kind of drastic action, like skipping breakfast or meals.

Originally Posted by Samurai

I am trying to temporize the thread into a more meaningful one. If somebody comes into the thread asking for weight loss tips, first question should be why. The reasons could be aesthetics, bodybuilding, on medical advice or simply to be healthy. Depending on their need, people with the right experience can guide them. Therefore, we should allow different viewpoints instead of trying to shut it down.

For example, if a member comes into the thread saying "Oh my god, my BMI is 26!!! I want to get back to healthy level. What should I do?" Then we can say "Relax dude, you are fine. Google Smart BMI and check what it says about your BMI".

First of all, no one has done that. It is generally the other way around.

I think this is exaggeration of mere discussion of the importance of bf% and weight in achieving a better health.

[rajushank84]

Traditional breakfast is very difficult to incorporate into a 1400-calorie, 100-carb day. Especially for a south Indian guy like me who craves carbs out of habit. If I have a traditional breakfast of idli-sambar or an American breakfast full of fats and carbs, I will be hungry and miserable the rest of the day.

Meal timing and frequency doesn't matter, overall what you eat and how much you eat does. So what works for me may not work for you. Personally, I tend to be a night eater. I need to put something in my mouth literally before I go to bed at night. So I account for that, in this way.

- Late night snack (some carb, typically a sugary thing)
- Dinner (typically calorie heavy and carb heavy)
- Afternoon snack (protein bar and maybe some M&Ms or almonds at around 3pm) and a protein shake at around 4pm

Now having accounted for my "weakest" areas in the day, I plan out my rest of my day. What is missing? Protein, and veggies! So..

- Lunch (a lot of greens - lettuce, spinach, broccoli, asparagus, carrots, beets, green beans and between 120g-150g meat - typically boiled chicken)
- Morning (technically breakfast) - a protein shake

In between I have coffees without milk and without sugar, so I don't really count them.

Now when I say breakfast is overrated, what I mean is the idea that you need to have a heavy 1000-calorie breakfast is overrated. The above strategy to plan my meal is very specific to how my mind works, and this will vary from person to person. I have to fit all that within my specific calorie goals and macro goals customized for me.

My wife on the other hand does have breakfast - she just eats eggs and sometimes string cheese! So she is able to hit her protein numbers while still eating food (more healthy than my protein shakes), and does it without any carbs. If you can do that - nothing like it! She doesn't crave carbs at night like I do, but she has her snacks in the afternoon. She is doing 1350 per day, but does better at incorporating things like Salmon into her lunch. By the way she has seen tremendous progress too (15 pounds in the last 3 months) and her squat has gone from 25 pounds (the small bar) to 65 pounds now. She already deadlifts with better form than I do.

To answer your question about where this all comes from - it comes from "bros" in the bodybuilding community, some people who do keto, people who do low-carb etc. Both online (bb.com and myfitnesspal forums) and offline (my coworkers and people at my gym). I take a lot of advice from a guy in my office who lost 130 pounds, he went from being extremely obese to properly fit. He deadlifts above 400 pounds. This guy actually does zero carb (well technically that wouldn't actually be zero, it will be 20 or 30 from carrots and stuff) and gets basically all of his calories from fats and protein. That approach works too.

I don't have any links (I could find them if that will really help with your weight loss, but I won't spend the time finding links for the sake of argument), but anything you google you can find results both ways. You will find "studies" with exact opposite conclusions.

But no, don't take my word for it, if you look at any person who has done a real fat-to-fit transformation (look on bb.com forum, myfitnesspal forum and reddit), you will find everyone basically follows these same principles and it works.

I will say one other thing though - the concept of timed meal for humans is fairly recent and artificial. Humans - and other animals - don't / didn't have the concept of three meals a day. They ate when they found food. They would even go a day or two starving at times. Our stomachs are capable of handling a lot more hunger than we think. Our acidity level adapts. A lot of people have tremendous progress with IF (Intermittent Fasting). I haven't tried that yet, because I am seeing tremendous progress even without it . Maybe if I actually encounter a plateau someday, I will try it. I have a buddy who is well on track for his six-packs (he is seeing 2 of them, aims for six by september) and he does IF. He lost 20 pounds over 4 months (he started pretty lean, he's getting close to 11-12% bodyfat now).

My suggestion - play with all these concepts, actually try it, nothing will come out of theorizing. Have a daily weight log, a tape measurement log and a body fat log. Note down readings every day and see the trend over several weeks. Also correlate that with your caloric intake and also how strong/weak you get in the gym. What works for me may not work for you, the opposite may work for you.

Hope this helps. Happy losing!

Random side note: Fat loss is the only context where loss is gain, and gym is the only place where failure is success .

[ampere]

Originally Posted by rajushank84

I don't have any links (I could find them if that will really help with your weight loss, but I won't spend the time finding links for the sake of argument), but anything you google you can find results both ways. You will find "studies" with exact opposite conclusions.
....

But no, don't take my word for it, if you look at any person who has done a real fat-to-fit transformation (look on bb.com forum, myfitnesspal forum and reddit), you will find everyone basically follows these same principles and it works.

See this post. (In our own forum we have folks who have gained immensely from Ketosis)

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/shifti...ml#post3582980


Ketosis has mainly worked wonders for obese guys to come down quite dramatically. The question how to sustain it once you are down. Thats where all the troubles start. The maintenance mode should also be sustainable for an easy lifestyle.

[bblost]

@rajushank,

Please don't take it the wrong way but what is the use of a six pack on a body that can't even do a couple of pullups and bench more than its own weight?

Isn't strength increase the whole point of working out.

Otherwise it's just a beautiful car with a weak engine.

I would rate an ugly fat car with a powerful engine significantly higher. But that's just me.

Again a humble request to not take my post in a bad way.

[amitoj]

@bblost: Won't a person with six pack abs have more strength than when he or she started out with a tummy? Unless we are talking about a weightlifter.

[bblost]

I would rather that the big tummy guy took up a proper exercise regimen that helps build strength. Which in turn will shape the body.

Rather than shape the body and then increase the strength.