[ValarMorghulis]

Originally Posted by Eddy

...
Let’s move on!

Before you do, please let me applaud you for your debating skill. Loved the way you dismantled the argument.

[ABHI_1512]

Originally Posted by Eddy

You are saying Pakistan is safe for the Indian cricket team to travel because Pakistan claims it is. And you believe them. But you don’t believe our govt when it says Pakistan tour is not on. The real reason govt didn’t allow the team to go to Pakistan is because it wanted BCCI to tailor everything including the choice of venue to help us win.


Let’s move on!

If putting words into my mouth satisfies your urge to have the last word, I am quite happy to give it to you. Read and re read again what I have written but I don’t think that would matter anyways. You agreeing or disagreeing with me doesn’t mean anything in real world. The fact remains that BCCI used their clout to force ICC and other member countries into agreeing to their whims.

And I must admit that it’s been a futile effort in getting you to understand my viewpoint. And you have now come out with an entirely different version and attributing the same to me which I have never said at all and which is highlighted in bold. But whatever lets you sleep better at night. Peace out.

[NomadSK]

Meanwhile Karin Nair & Danish malewar dashing Kerala’s hope of grabbing the first time Ranji title after both of them steadied the innings, at one point Vadarbha was 7/2 . Nair should & would be for the flight to English summers and do some 12th man duties, that’s how we award domestic performances.

Originally Posted by Joeboy

I won't be surprised if India wins the Champions Trophy since they are playing in Dubai and the pitches are tailor made to suit Indian spinners.

I think those days are gone when India used to dominate spinners. Do you think India played better to NZ spinners to go down 3-0 in home conditions. Playing spin on spinning friendly tracks is a game of patience which is lost by advent of T-20 cricket.

If Pakistan/BD had good enough spinners, our so called pseudo stars would have fallen like a pack of cards.

But if Afghanistan somehow manages to play India in SF, highly improbable scenario, they will have surely upper hand on India with the quality spinners they have in their line up.

[PPS]

Originally Posted by ABHI_1512

If the host nation says we can provide security then that’s the way to go. No country on earth can provide full proof guarantee of security but we can always talk about the steps taken.

Well, we are talking of Pakistan here! Same place where SL team bus was attacked by Terrorists long back. And last year there was a surge in militant attacks in Pakistan. I am actually surprised majority of the nations agreed to tour Pakistan in the first place.

My initial point still stands and that BCCI holds enormous clout in world cricket and which is taking the fairness out of the game at many levels.

I don't see anything wrong with having clout! ICC as well needs the money which India brings in. This is not FIFA, only a handful of nations play Cricket around the World.

Ultimately, players have to play the game and it’s a pity that we don’t have enough silverware to show !!

Inspite of having so much of clout, India doesn't win every WC which is completely unfair!

ICC is a joke now and completely dominated by BCCI and we all know that. That is what I was talking at the first place ! Every other board knows that BCCI is the moneybag and that is why BCCI gets everything their way. Hope this clears.

The ICC was earlier dominated by ECB & CA if I remember correctly. And India wasn't getting enough of the pie which they thought they deserved since they were bringing in majority of the money. That is when our politicians like Sharad Pawar,etc used their clout & have now ensured that BCCI is the most powerful cricket board in the ICC.

[headbanger]

Just went thru last couple of pages.

Poor Indian team, if they win, they had an unfair advantage, BCCI has clout and what not.
If they lose, they can't win ICC events and play only IPL.

[Eddy]

Originally Posted by ABHI_1512

And you have now come out with an entirely different version.

Please don't play the victim card. This is how the discussion went. Verbatim, so that there is no room for misinterpretation

Eddy: What option, other than playing in Dubai/Sri Lanka, did India or ICC have? What could have BCCI done differently?

Abhi: If Pakistan can host every other nation and the security is of no concern for the teams, then why should India be any different ? If Pakistan can play in India during a World Cup and the ICC and BCCI both, used that match to the hilt for promotion, why can’t India play at Pakistan ? We all know the clout of BCCI in world cricket and hence the chosen venue of Dubai.

Eddy:In simple words, the relationship that Pakistan has with all these countries is totally different from the India-Pak relationship. I think it is obvious why the Indian cricket team did not travel to Pakistan.

Abhi: If the host nation says we can provide security then that’s the way to go.

Eddy's final interpretation: You are saying Pakistan is safe for the Indian cricket team to travel because Pakistan claims it is. And you believe them. But you don’t believe our govt when it says Pakistan tour is not on. The real reason govt didn’t allow the team to go to Pakistan is because it wanted BCCI to tailor everything including the choice of venue to help us win.

Your last post

The fact remains that BCCI used their clout to force ICC and other member countries into agreeing to their whims.

You still call that decision not to tour Pak a "whim" and not a logical one because you think that Pak is safe to travel to because all other counties are doing it and Pak has guaranteed safety.


The only point I misunderstood during the course of the discussion was that you were talking about the final match at Ahmedabad whereas I thought you were talking about the Ind-Pak match. On that point, I agree with you that the outcome was not fixed. India expected to win and had prepared the post match ceremony according to that.

[Neversaygbye]

Originally Posted by Eddy

In simple words, the relationship that Pakistan has with all these countries is totally different from the India-Pak relationship. I think it is obvious why the Indian cricket team did not travel to Pakistan.

Caught up with this thread now and my point is simple. Even if I accept that the relationship with Pakistan is different (which I do accept), how come that does not stop India from sending its other athletes to Pakistan (Yuki being an example)? Are their lives less valuable than Virat Kohli's? Fundamentally there seem to be double standards at play here. The Indian government can allow every other sportsperson to play in Pakistan but not our cricketers. It is also fine if Pakistan come and play in India (no one seems to remember the unique India-Pak relationship then) but we can't send our cricketers there. Slow claps for the honchos who are abusing power to take convenient decisions that benefit India and give our team an unfair advantage (like being based in Dubai for the tournament). The BCCI knew that they would be able to get away with pushing for Dubai as the base for India, especially now that the ICC has dropped all pretensions and become a complete lackey of the BCCI.

Coming back to your point - I agree with you that the India-Pak relationship is different and we should not be sending ANY of our sportspersons there, and not just our cricketers (as long is we think it's fine to mix sports with politics). When it comes to any sport, we should also give a walkover to Pakistan so that we don't have to play them ANYWHERE in ANY sport. Let us be consistent and stop treating some sports (and sportspersons) like holy cows.

[jkrishnakj]

There are two other dimensions that we need to acknowledge. When other field sports people visit Pakistan, our government and theirs will have to worry about the security for just a hand full of people. How many local spectators will go and watch a non cricket sport out there?

Another critical dimension is the majority number of visas that both governments have to facilitate and keep those folks safe. Just the sheer number of people from India wanting to visit and see the matches will be in tens of thousands and that's a bigger risk for our government to worry about as well.

[rajivr1612]

Whenever I read and watch news about Pakistan media boasting about the security arrangements provided for visiting cricket teams in Pakistan (Presidential level security they say) and that Pakistan is a "very safe" country, I chuckle and am reminded of the below incident.
I work in an oil and gas design company. Once (pre-covid), my manager asked me if I am willing to take up a long term assignment in Iraq. The pay was mind-blowing, with 28 days on and off. When it is Iraq, the most important aspect would be security. This is what he had to say about it - From the airport an armored vehicle with gun-toting escorts will come to receive. One has to wear a bullet-proof vest and sit in the vehicle. The vehicle will take us to the plant complex where I have to stay for the next 28 days. For return to airport again the same drill.
Though I was tempted due to the financial aspect, due to family pressure, I opted out.
The reason such high level security is offered is due to the high possibility of threat, hence it was a good decision by the Indian govt. in my opinion.

[hothatchaway]

Originally Posted by ValarMorghulis

Before you do, please let me applaud you for your debating skill. Loved the way you dismantled the argument.

This post took me several decades back to my school days, when upon seeing two of our classmates come to blows, we would stand by the sidelines, egging them on, deriving a vicarious thrill but also secretly happy at not being part of the fight, thereby risking a blow, both to limb and ego. This was or is fine in the schoolyard, with juveniles acting tough. Perhaps even on fora where trolling is the norm. Did not expect to see this here.

I wonder what value your comment added to this discussion? Did you admire BCCI's decision for example? If yes, then it would have been great to read another point of view. In the same vein, it is perfectly acceptable for some members to hold and express a contrary viewpoint. It is a free country after all and BCCI, at least on paper, is just another federation running a sport, one among many in India.

Request you to please treat all other members with respect, even if you happen to disagree with them. We could do better than such examples of veiled disdain.

[NomadSK]

I used to have different school of thoughts as a sportsperson, till I came to know that the common citizen of their country is compulsorily supposed to pay for the cause of "Kashmir" every year, out of pocket (read kind of tax), we all know what that cause is. After that, I became quite apprehensive with India having any ties with this country of getting an opportunity of making money on India's behalf.

Anyway BCCI is just a rich private entity who have to toe the line set up by the government. So it is what it is. By the way, I don't see our stars having any advantage playing in Dubai, that's a slow track and a bit spin friendly, we are no longer a spin dominating team, they would have preferred to play on the flat runway like tracks of Lahore and make records and further raise their god like stature, anyway that's what they play for.

Time to move on towards actual cricket, can Kerala pull out a rabbit from the hat ? Looks difficult though.

[Eddy]

Originally Posted by Neversaygbye

how come that does not stop India from sending its other athletes to Pakistan (Yuki being an example)? Are their lives less valuable than Virat Kohli's?

Like I mentioned earlier, threat levels to Virat vs others could be different. If those can be managed with security (like it is being done for other cricket teams for ex), they can travel and compete. If the board/govt does not feel it is safe, then a no-go.
[/quote]

It is also fine if Pakistan come and play in India (no one seems to remember the unique India-Pak relationship then) but we can't send our cricketers there.

Maybe India is safer than Pakistan? But I think they came in the hope that we will reciprocate. Now that we did not, all future events might become hybrid. (personally, I don't see that happening).

Slow claps for the honchos who are abusing power to take convenient decisions that benefit India and give our team an unfair advantage (like being based in Dubai for the tournament).

This is where the previous discussion started. Assuming that the govt gave a no-go to travelling to Pakistan, what was the option?

1- India does not play the CT - Impossible from a financial pov
2- Full CT moves out of Pak - better from a cricketing logistics & scheduling PoV but not fair on the host nation who had spent a fortune on rebuilding the infra for the event.

The BCCI knew that they would be able to get away with pushing for Dubai as the base for India,

I am thankful for the clout that we have, that enables us to prioritise safety.

Coming back to your point - I agree with you that the India-Pak relationship is different and we should not be sending ANY of our sportspersons there, and not just our cricketers (as long is we think it's fine to mix sports with politics). When it comes to any sport, we should also give a walkover to Pakistan so that we don't have to play them ANYWHERE in ANY sport. Let us be consistent and stop treating some sports (and sportspersons) like holy cows.

This depends on whether the primary reason for not touring was geopolitical tension or security.

Seriously guys, let's just move on from the topic please.....

Who do we want to face in the semis? Face SA and somehow hope that Aus loses the other SF? Or take a depleted Aus "Head" on in the semis itself?

[AtheK]

Originally Posted by Eddy

Who do we want to face in the semis? Face SA and somehow hope that Aus loses the other SF? Or take a depleted Aus "Head" on in the semis itself?

I would rather have Australians in Semi final then in Finals, they are different beast in finals. Also would be good to win with a clean record, that is If we win. Last but not the least, need to start defeating NZ more in ICC tournaments, they have been our Achilles heel.

[Crow]

We’ve never beaten the Aussies in semis or finals in ICC tournaments if I remember correctly. Maybe this is a chance to set the record straight? Having said that it will be satisfying to defeat our bogey team NZ too. I really can’t decide which outcome I want. Just hope that we sensibly give a chance to squad members today rather than play the same XI. The next match is in 48 hours, so best to rest our bowling unit at least.

[TROOPER]

After everything we've been through with Pakistan, what even the Sri Lankan team had to face, I cannot believe when general people or even the remaining teams find it safe to go play there. The delusion to consider that country safe for anything is ridiculous.

Forget the cricket team, I personally wouldn't want any Indian or Indian representative to step there for our own safety.

And we have folks who can't digest the fact that what a statement it would be for terror fanatics to harm the Indian team. Blaming the BCCI and the Govt and what not for playing petty politics. These same people would be the first ones to blame the Govt and BCCI for carelessness if even a single bullet is shot at the Indian team if they were to visit Pakistan.

Also coming to the 'ground' advantage, the remaining teams had the option to object to the same. They chose to stay mum. Don't get the whining after the fact everything has been set in place.