[Poitive]

Originally Posted by chinkara

But the issues are not movement related. Even in a stopped car, I could not easily find a comfortable position. This suggests that the basic contour has changed. Why, god knows.
I am not even talking about clutch travel / hardness or visibility etc.

Mate, the contour is also related to the angle one is likely to sit at - the pressure/weight points on the body change - which are integral to the comfort in a seat. How the movements are for pedals etc, too, dictate the driver's seat. A seat in a car can be designed with many considerations.

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

... I still remember one of the prominent journalists comparing Optra Diesel to premium German sedans of its time - It was all about the engine.

Yes, the engine was (is) a gem, but this offered so much more than just that - the amazing suspension (excellent ride and composure), low CoG, and a steering to good feel and feedback to state a few.

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

Acko appears to be an escape artist, the claim process seemed to take forever and the customer care was not responsive. I still recommend insurance companies that have an actual office. My father had to visit one such office to get the claim ...

Thanks, mate, shall keep this in mind. I too have visited one to resolve things, way back; about a couple of decades or more, if I remember correctly.

Originally Posted by shancz

Having seen the Quashqai(2015) in person I can confirm that the moment you look at it it screams Nissan's S-Cross

Since the current gen uses the same platform this will be in direct competition to the Creta/Kushaq/HyRyder twins and I would suspect that's what Nissan's aiming for.

While checking stuff about the Qashqai, heard that the family crossover/compact SUVs were called Qushqai-class; as this is the one which popularized (or even started) the family crossover/compact SUV segment.

It has a wheelbase of 2,665mm which is roughly the same as the Kicks and the recently phased out Tucson, so surely bigger than Creta et all. I expect it to be a lot more mature too, given what I felt of the Kicks. More on this in a separate post, mate.

Originally Posted by automowheels

Just the thread I was looking for. Subscribed! Also, is the Alcazar out of contention purely because it's a Creta derivative and you already ditched the Creta?

Mate, this question has been answered in this post (link)

Further, please feel free to use this thread for your car selection too. The thread is not only for me, but open to all (opening post and the quoted post below)

Originally Posted by Poitive

From now on, let this thread be open to anyone considering an SUV in this segment

(Please read below for details)

Right from the first post, the idea of the thread was to collaboratively help each other in making better decisions about choosing suitable cars, and not limit it to only my decision. I think it is time to open the thread to all. I will keep discussing about my thoughts and decision process as well. Suggestions remain welcome.

To keep things on track and useful, let us try:

• Predominantly for SUV's (including urban-SUVs/soft-roaders) with a wheelbase of 2600mm to 2800mm. (Price wise: Duster/Seltos to Compass/Tucson). Diesel, Petrol, Manual, Auto - all is fine.
  .
• In case your shortlist has the odd car beyond the above, it is okay. It is not hard and fast.
  .
• If you have taken any test drives, please share your experiences with others (if you are an owner, even better!). You can make your reports as elaborate or short as you wish. It would make a good collaborative resource for everyone. Marking it as a Test Drive in the first line would help other's search it easily.
  .
• While replying to a requirement, please try to quote the member's post which you are replying to. It would help avoid confusions.

*
Instead of starting a new thread for each requirement, this could be a joint resource.
Please feel free to add your requirements

*

~~~~~~~~~

Originally Posted by shancz

1. That's a good enough timeframe to keep the FTD factor as a top priority. I see this as a positive sign(explained at the end).

2. Completely agree with this, doesn't make sense when you can't find what you want.

3. Don't plonk the money on a compromise is what I would suggest but on the other hand do stretch a bit to get what you want. I don't doubt this since you've already considered and rejected the Octavia and Tucson.

4a. ... Such is the pull of a beautiful sedan.
Honestly, I was talking about the Taigun while gazing at the Virtus's silhouette from a distance ...

4b. Coming back to today while the sedan has an unmatched sway it is for you to decide how comfortable you would be, how it affects your back issues and will it aggravate the improvements ?

5. Coming to your present, its relieving that you aren't pressed to compromise, take time to consider your needs, wants and priorities...

1. Yes, it sure is a positive. Due to some happenings, had reduced driving, and I realized that in some sense it made me feel older and less energetic. Back to driving myself it is, and sure the FTD factor is a priority now, only complicating things further, with all my needs/demands/wants - as a driver, anthropometric, and on both the front and second rows!

2. I have had a similar line of thinking, so as to not feel that a large chunk of money is wasted. Unless there is some ghastly situation, I don't see myself changing the car anytime soon. Waiting is only making prices rise. Models crossing from under 20L to over 20L also mean higher taxation. Nothing really promising on the cards either, except Qushquai, which is really uncertain in terms of pricing and availability. One is loosing purchasing power.

3. Yes, I did think of the stretch too. Just didn't feel justified, and they had their own compromises anyway. Don't think I'd find an apt vehicle even if I were to double the budget!

4. Sedans sure have a pull for me due to the low CoG. GC is not a terrible need in my case, as I happily lived with the Optra Magnum which was pretty low and had a longish overhang in the front-centre.

It really comes down to the back issue; even though nearly okay now, I feel very reluctant to commit another 9 years to low seating. Even if I were to look at it with an open mind, no (even near) perfect vehicle. MT is much desired (intend to post on one aspect of the value of an MT later sometime - especially for ones who like to have good control and are in sync with their cars).

5. In fact, I do feel pressed. Can't let this hang on forever, and see the value of money fall like a car in quicksand.

Originally Posted by shancz

... but as usual I will leave with a few thinking out loud suggestions

6. If your other car can take over the role of the Optra then why not position it as such and get a new car to fill its previous role ? ...

7a. My takeaway from Covid is to do/get/ride/drive what you really want without overthinking about how it might pan out 10 years down the line... So if a turbo diesel moves you then finalize that as a requirement.

7b. Like you had said earlier that you're buying much less than what you can afford so why overthink ? What's the worst that can happen ?
In your case ask if the car will keep you happy for the next 5 years and think about the next 5 when you get there.

8. ... As for NCR rules the worst case I assume is that you have to fall back to the one car for 1 month in a year. You've managed for a year, you sure can manage for a month if needed. Although I hope better sense prevails about such illogical moves next year onwards.

9. ... but he wanted to feel the 200bhp with a MT and this was the time to get it. He went for a lower trim due to budget limitations but got his 200 bhp with an MT and that was all he wanted from the car.

10. Nissan Quashqai etc : will see when it launches, too early to comment or even take them seriously

11. HyCross : still retains the "van like" feel which you didn't like about the Innova and its going to be expensive, IMHO.

Will wait for your other TD reports to comment further on specific cars.

6. Once the new one is there, almost all my driving will be in the new one, as it was with the Optra. My primary car, and primarily driven by me (or the driver when I am in the back seat). I think until the first tyre change of the Optra, I hardly even let another touch the steering wheel!!

7a. That is the partial line of thinking which is making me go for a diesel despite almost none around going for it, and giving me the (are you stupid?) looks when I say diesel! Even folks who can afford many times what I can, are not even considering diesel, despite highish usage.

7b. I guess some misconception here. I am not sure how to define how much one can afford. Becomes a matter of priorities and alternate use for money, and there always is alternate use (indicated in the opening post). I just didn't have a financially calculation determined hard budget, but gave myself one based on what seems reasonable in the overall context of life and priorities. If I look at pure functionality, maybe a Honda City or an XUV300 might suffice, which makes extra spends beyond a point hard to justify to my own self. The idea of spending more is much linked to being happier with the car for longer, thereby getting good value over time.

As before, unless there is something rather extreme, I don't see myself changing the car before 9-10 years, even if I enjoyed it lesser than I hoped to. This is another reason for me to ensure that I get the choice right, and am at peace with the compromises made, to then not wonder "what if I got car xyz instead" leading to discontent.

[OT: In life, I think, in life, it is not only about making the right compromises which is important, but also to get comfortable with them, if possible. That allows one to be happier with the result, and is one reason I have allowed myself to suffer the price revisions. Also, thanks for the video.]

8. That we have been able to manage with one car less for a year, is also to do with the current and expectedly temporary situation. If things change, I might need a vehicle at short notice, which is why the Compass to has not been completely ruled out. But hey, to enjoy the vehicle, decided that I'll learn to live with Uber and the likes if such a situation were to happen - primarily as there are no other choices left besides the ones under focus.

9. My kind of a guy, and my kind of thinking. Very much on the lines of what I had in mind while choosing the Optra too. Had taken the cheaper model, which was even without airbags!

10. By the face of it, had it been around at a sensible price, this had a very good chance of being selected, hence eyes have been on this.

11. For a while, it seemed that Toyota might retain the BoF Crysta and this might be a shorter unibody vehicle possibly between the Creta segment and the Crysta segment - something of Kicks+ size. That with a good FE, petrol and Toyota got me interested. Now, I expect the price too would be a deterrent (despite petrol); but price aside, based on the pictures revealed, I don't like the very MPV trying hard to be an SUV kind of looks. With a 2850mm wheelbase, and it's ottoman-seats in the second row, would give me a feeling of being a chauffeur - one reason I feel uneasy with MPVs (had a similar feeling with Skoda Superb). Quite sure Innova HyCross is out of contention for me.

The TD report might take some time. Perhaps next weekend, or the one after that.

Thanks for your views, @shancz mate.

PS: Will reply to your older post later, @shancz.

Originally Posted by BleueNinja

1. XZA+ gets disc brake too now & if I am correct maybe XZS gets it too.

2. ... These responses range from “Sir aise hi hota hai” to “driving style main dikkat hai” . Luckily I didn’t need to visit them for any issues but this has been the general feedback that I have received from fellow Tata owners.

3. Since, you are considering a pre-owned car, why not take a look at XUV500, preferably 2019 onwards batch. There are good options available in market.

1. Thanks, mate. I checked, and indeed the XZ+ and XZA+ have all wheel disc brakes. Not the XZS or even the XZ. It is surprising that one needs to go for the sunroof model of the XZ variant, the XZA, to get all disc brakes. Makes one consider the Safari.

Adding the variants for convenience of others:



2. Happy to hear that your experience has been good. Such excuses can generally be handled with a bit of rapport building and them realizing that you won't fall for such stuff. This is almost a non-issue for me since many Tata workshops in Delhi+NCR. Would worry about this if it were MG; even more for Jeep.

3. I guess I gave an incorrect impression when I talked about getting an Octavia cheap. It was for a new one which I considered. I often consider things which are somewhat out of budget only to be sure whether or not I rally want them. Most of the times I don't, so I don't live with the idea that I didn't stretch the budget for something desirable, and sometimes, it becomes well worth stretching as was the case with the Optra Magnum purchase. Never really liked the XUV500; would much prefer the XUV700, even if in a lower variant, or the XUV300, if for some reason I decide to spend much lesser.

Thanks for your views, @BleueNinja mate.

Originally Posted by JKBKS

Buddy we have been on this trip for a while now and exchanged a lot of notes along the way too I guess our requirements have been similar in a sense, with the main difference being you looking for a manual and I for an AT.

1. In the last year, my requirement and thought process changed too, with changing needs. My kids started driving and a small AT car is the need of the hour to help them hone their skills while navigating Bangalore traffic. ....

2. So long story short, a small car is what I am looking at now after having booked XUV700 AT last year (cancelled it last month btw when I realized that in my zeal I had booked a diesel AT instead) I will be keeping my Scorpio for another 3-4 years and reassess the situation then.

3. Coming back to your case, I think you should seriously evaluate XUV 300 (Petrol/Diesel) if you are open to a 5 seater MT. Both are excellent engines. Its safer than XUV 700. Built on Tivoli platform, comes with 7 airbags, wheelbase of 2600mm (Creta has 2610mm btw). It has the power to go anywhere and will be better to manoeuvre on hills as well.

4. Heard some new launches could be announced in Jan.23 Auto Show. So will be a good idea to wait till then as well.

Sure we have, bud. I'm just way more vocal, haha. Thanks for the views and company.

1. I thought you might get tempted and go in for the Tucson. Though each individual is shaped differently and needs differ, in general, I think it is a good idea to learn driving on a used MT car. Used, as one is less worried about dents and scratches, so can be more focused on driving. MT, as that allows a person to really get a sense of what is going on in the car and build some instinct around it. Changing from an MT to an AT will usually be very easy, and not vice-a-versa. Starting on an AT, one might never move to an MT; and if one did, might always be complaining (vocally or otherwise).

2. I think I remember mentioning to you that you would be amongst the few who should consider a petrol considering your low usage, and enjoy that 200 bhp engine. A pity. Maybe your friend in Mahindra and some luck with a dealer cancellation might help, if you still have the XUV700 in mind.

3. I did like the XUV300 in the limited drive I had. Came across as a well engineered machine with many positives. Had it come with an HPS, it might have made me go for it. Without that, the engine and space of the XUV700 seem better.

About safety: in a collision between two similarly rated cars, the one which is heavier has the advantage. Ratings, though helpful, IMO can be deceiving in terms of real life safety. Why the XUV300 might be better is due to it's lower CoG allowing serious swerves if needed, to avoid a collision. The XUV700 rolled in it's crash test, as shared earlier in the thread (had posted a picture and a video). Though it still got 5 stars, I guess it would be due to it's side airbags. Ones purchasing the non-side airbags versions too would go around in bliss of ignorance, of being safe in a 5 star rated vehicle.

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

1. ... Back in 2014 when I accidentally ended up taking a test drive of the 2013 model year Scorpio, I expected it to be rubbish (body roll, terrible ride and what not that I had heard about it) and was completely overwhelmed by how it drove.

2. So don't worry about the choices you are going to make, a good vehicle will encourage you to go places and do things with it.

3. As a fast and very demanding driver that I am, I suggest you find out if any XUV AWD AT is there ready stock against cancellations, buy it and go places with it. What an amazing driving machine it is.

Mate, I expect this is a very very casual suggestion and not a serious one.

1. [Possibly OT: I had spent some time with the Scorpio ages back - 15 odd years ago, maybe. I think it was the first iteration. It was amongst the very few vehicles I was unhappy to drive. The engine was powerful and smooth for it's day, but all else didn't work for me - the suspension and lack of composure, especially. Can't remember much, but this was one I would be unhappy to be behind the wheel of. Have been told that it has been much improved over time, including the suspension, so I expect users of those would have a different opinion.]

2. I think there is sufficient need to worry mate. The thread is full of reasons for it - back issues; headroom, legroom etc for my size; need for a vehicle with 'connect' and much more. I could not see the link between a vehicle being unexpectedly enjoyed by one ages ago being a reason for another to not worry.

What is a good vehicle for one might not be for another, mate. You talk about the engine, some talk about features, and I talk about size needs, connect with the vehicle, suspension characteristics (even in the OP), of course a good engine, and also an HPS, a vehicle with good feedback. I think none are wrong - people simply have different preferences.

3. Considering this to be a reply to the previous post, in which MT was talked about a few times, including in italics, and also that it was a big factor against the Octavia (including a reference to you) and Tucson, the suggestion of an AT is very surprising. Not sure if you read the post. When an XUV700 is available in an MT, I don't see a reason to go for an AT. Yes, an AWD comes only with an AT, but an AWD is hardly a need for my use case (all tarmac, primarily city use). Also mentioned other issues with the XUV700.

~~~~~~~~~~

A bit about driving etc.:

For most fast, demanding, and a good drivers, it is very important to have good feedback from the car. As mentioned in the Scropio N roll-centre post, besides the car being an output device to follow our instructions, the car is also an input device - one which sensitizes us to what the car is going through, thereby making us drive accordingly, sensing it's limits. Sensing the limits is essential for safe fast driving; and not just for fast driving, but enthusiastic driving.

Heck, in my case, I even enjoy taking a corner at 40kmph, sensing the weight distribution and traction of tyres as the car shifts weight and traction differs. Much more to enjoy in cars and driving than just speed

~~~~~~~~

That was one long post. I wonder if it will even be read properly, but the idea of not replying properly when others are taking interest in my decision making simply doesn't feel right.

[Kosfactor]

Originally Posted by Poitive

3. Considering this to be a reply to the previous post, in which MT was talked about a few times, including in italics, and also that it was a big factor against the Octavia (including a reference to you) and Tucson, the suggestion of an AT is very surprising. Not sure if you read the post. When an XUV700 is available in an MT, I don't see a reason to go for an AT. Yes, an AWD comes only with an AT, but an AWD is hardly a need for my use case (all tarmac, primarily city use). Also mentioned other issues with the XUV700.

It wasn't a casual suggestion, see the vehicles have become very good over time so the risk of ending up with a poor choice has become very less, the last time a vehicle was launched with poor brakes - I do not remember, uncomfortable suspension - Yes Thar CRDe but that was more than 10 years ago , poor seats - probably the Fiesta/Figo twins but again a long time ago but now even the most affordable of vehicles have things that are well sorted , we as automobile enthusiasts can certainly spot flaws but that's rarely worth regret. Certainly depends on your needs one car is better than the other in so many ways but overall there are some standards being followed now.

Yes a thought process wherein the utility or purpose of a vehicle will offset any apprehensions one have about its attributes - is what I was referring to. But I also understand that what matters to me won't matter to others - I may forever daily drive my old school vehicle but I recognise as well as enjoy the progression of newer vehicles - not all but many of them.

I read your previous posts and I understand your preference for MT but I repeat XUV - AT is the way to go. Yes the MT is very good as is however when there is such a nice AT available it's just makes sense, it's proper premium car experience.

AWD is optional, the only reason to suggest it is the ability to bury the go pedal without worrying about traction, no drama just effortless acceleration.

[JKBKS]

Originally Posted by Poitive

Sure we have, bud. I'm just way more vocal, haha. Thanks for the views and company.
1. I thought you might get tempted and go in for the Tucson. Though each individual is shaped differently and needs differ, in general, I think it is a good idea to learn driving on a used MT car. Used, as one is less worried about dents and scratches, so can be more focused on driving. MT, as that allows a person to really get a sense of what is going on in the car and build some instinct around it. Changing from an MT to an AT will usually be very easy, and not vice-a-versa. Starting on an AT, one might never move to an MT; and if one did, might always be complaining (vocally or otherwise).
2. I think I remember mentioning to you that you would be amongst the few who should consider a petrol considering your low usage, and enjoy that 200 bhp engine. A pity. Maybe your friend in Mahindra and some luck with a dealer cancellation might help, if you still have the XUV700 in mind.
3. I did like the XUV300 in the limited drive I had. Came across as a well engineered machine with many positives. Had it come with an HPS, it might have made me go for it. Without that, the engine and space of the XUV700 seem better.
About safety: in a collision between two similarly rated cars, the one which is heavier has the advantage. Ratings, though helpful, IMO can be deceiving in terms of real life safety. Why the XUV300 might be better is due to it's lower CoG allowing serious swerves if needed, to avoid a collision. The XUV700 rolled in it's crash test, as shared earlier in the thread (had posted a picture and a video). Though it still got 5 stars, I guess it would be due to it's side airbags. Ones purchasing the non-side airbags versions too would go around in bliss of ignorance, of being safe in a 5 star rated vehicle.
~~~~~~~~~~
A bit about driving etc.:
For most fast, demanding, and a good drivers, it is very important to have good feedback from the car. As mentioned in the Scropio N roll-centre post, besides the car being an output device to follow our instructions, the car is also an input device - one which sensitizes us to what the car is going through, thereby making us drive accordingly, sensing it's limits. Sensing the limits is essential for safe fast driving; and not just for fast driving, but enthusiastic driving.
Heck, in my case, I even enjoy taking a corner at 40kmph, sensing the weight distribution and traction of tyres as the car shifts weight and traction differs. Much more to enjoy in cars and driving than just speed
~~~~~~~~
That was one long post. I wonder if it will even be read properly, but the idea of not replying properly when others are taking interest in my decision making simply doesn't feel right.

You have some stamina!! Writing even a 2-3 paragraph seems like a chore to me now-a-days
1. I did think about Tucson when heart-over-mind/one-life sentiment was going strong on these forums and new Tucson was yet to be launched. But the need for a small 2nd car, with the current Scorpio doing fine & hardly used these days put paid to that idea. Even I agree with starting on an MT (that's how we all learnt I believe) but dominant view at home is that this is not an era to buy an MT (pun intended). And I do see some logic to this as kids will be the prime users and their preference needs to be taken into account as well when a car is being bought. Going forward the availability of AT models is only going to increase so I don't think we will ever be in a situation where not having an MT car expertise will hurt much.

2. I did try with my contacts but per their policy variant change (from diesel to petrol) was not allowed and cancellation was the only option left.

3. Of all small safer AT cars, Nexon and XUV 300 suit my need but the issue is none has a proper AT (CVT/TC/DCT). Although both have a Marelli AMT and Nexon's is 1/2 a gen ahead, I am still not happy with what is available in this segment. Citroen C3 might come with a proper AT I heard and may wait till upcoming Auto Show to decide.

Regarding Safety, I think they take the lowest available variant for testing and XUV 700 lowest variant don't have side air bags. So you might want to check on that again. XUV 300 is just engineered better, on Tivoli's platform that has proper crumple and impact absorbing zones, that makes the shell safer than that of XUV 700. The difference in CoG between these is 2 cms whereas XUV 700 is longer by more that 2 ft so it should be more stable I think. But GNCAP crash tests are done at 64 kmph, with cars hitting stationary object. In head-on collisions on highways, the impact energy/g-forces will be far greater the GNCAP tests and luck will play a huge role then. So I would go with the safest car available.

I agree with your bit about driving!! Weaving through the traffic, fast corners and going at 50-60 on hills where the speed limit is 10-20 has a thrill component that is unmatched when compared to just going flat!!

Always a pleasure to read your well thought and written posts!!. Keep it up

[shancz]

Originally Posted by Poitive

It has a wheelbase of 2,665mm which is roughly the same as the Kicks and the recently phased out Tucson, so surely bigger than Creta et all. I expect it to be a lot more mature too, given what I felt of the Kicks.

Didn't know about Qashqai class, thanks.
As for the car the one I saw was the first gen and the current gen is quite different and larger. Should be good though and like you said, topic for a different post later on.

Originally Posted by Poitive

- the FTD factor is a priority now, only complicating things further, with all my needs/demands/wants - as a driver, anthropometric, and on both the front and second rows!
- Don't think I'd find an apt vehicle even if I were to double the budget!
- I feel very reluctant to commit another 9 years to low seating.

- So we're back to basics and where we started, but with a lot more experience and wisdom
- The most unbelievable fact of this search.
- Makes sense and this reaffirms the quest for a SUV, diesel and manual.

Originally Posted by Poitive

MT is much desired.

Absolutely, probably the topic for another thread.
IMO a decent MT can even let you enjoy an otherwise not very exciting car.
Like the wagonR or the S-Presso with their K10Bs. You have to drive them to feel what I am talking about.

Originally Posted by Poitive

- Can't let this hang on forever, and see the value of money fall like a car in quicksand.
- I think until the first tyre change of the Optra, I hardly even let another touch the steering wheel!!

- True, your point on the "value of money" in context of car prices in the last 2 years hammers home.
- Understandable, so that alternate car theory doesn't hold anymore.

Originally Posted by Poitive

- The idea of spending more is much linked to being happier with the car for longer, thereby getting good value over time.
- [OT: In life, I think, in life, it is not only about making the right compromises which is important, but also to get comfortable with them, if possible. That allows one to be happier with the result]

- Understood, so if you are looking at the XUV700/Safari at 20 lakhs and if there is a car which has everything that you want at 30, you can think about stretching but if that too has something missing then you're fine with the Safari/XUV700 ?
- That's how our current car came home and we have never had to revisit it since the last 6+ years.
The deeper meaning though is also understood and appreciated.

Originally Posted by Poitive

PS: Will reply to your older post later, @shancz.

That topic in itself is a big grey area with the majority of people, like me, who haven't experienced it first hand so the "fog of car" is very much there. We can deal with that when it crops up further down.

Originally Posted by Poitive

A bit about driving etc.:
- Sensing the limits is essential for safe fast driving; and not just for fast driving, but enthusiastic driving.
- Much more to enjoy in cars and driving than just speed

- That's the most neglected part of driving/riding these days.
When I first started reading reviews in magazines like Overdrive(Optra days and earlier) they used to say that "the steering is lifeless, the brakes are over-assisted and lack the natural progression". Now when I am watching the video reviews they say that "the steering is really smooth and makes maneuvering easy in the city and weights up sufficiently on the highways" and the reviews on brakes vary but none of them talks about "natural progression".
A sign of changing times ? Or maybe I have become obsolete.
- True and IMO a lower performing car can be more fun to drive on our roads and IIRC we already have dedicated thread(s) for it.

Originally Posted by Poitive

I wonder if it will even be read properly, but the idea of not replying properly when others are taking interest in my decision making simply doesn't feel right.

Understand your sentiments and respect your detailed approach. Folks switching between the usual social media channels will find it long and arduous but IMO this is the right way to do it.
Keeps the involvement, generates value and rewards the time being invested.
The only catch I see is when folks casually comment on the thread without understanding the context/requirements which requires some time.
This happens quite often on TBHP and I don't have an answer to this. This thread has way less of such incidents though.
Just one of the niggles we have to live with and I might have done so too somewhere down the line(apologies to OPs), but I try to understand the requirements and limit my recommendations on those.


PS : Will pause a bit on the replies now so the actual car hunt can regain focus. I will keep reading and acknowledging it with the overused/misused "thanks" (imagine relevant smileys here since I have reached the limit).

[Poitive]

Originally Posted by JKBKS

You have some stamina!! Writing even a 2-3 paragraph seems like a chore to me now-a-days
1. ... I don't think we will ever be in a situation where not having an MT car expertise will hurt much.

3. ... Citroen C3 might come with a proper AT I heard and may wait till upcoming Auto Show to decide.

Haha, I do it even if it sometimes feels like a chore; though it usually doesn't.

1. Totally understandable and hard to argue with, if AT has been chosen as the way forward.

3. In pictures this one looks like a beaut! Good luck with that. I didn't have issues with the AMT, but guess why? I almost used that like an MT most of the time!!

~~~~~~

Safety:

Originally Posted by Poitive

... Though it still got 5 stars, I guess it would be due to it's side airbags. Ones purchasing the non-side airbags versions too would go around in bliss of ignorance, of being safe in a 5 star rated vehicle.

Originally Posted by JKBKS

Regarding Safety, I think they take the lowest available variant for testing and XUV 700 lowest variant don't have side air bags. So you might want to check on that again.

The recently launched Mahindra XUV700 was tested in the most basic safety specification, fitted with two airbags, ABS brakes and ISOFIX anchorages. The XUV700 could be improved by making standard its optional equipment such as side body airbags, side head curtain airbags, Electronic Stability Control (ESC), and three point belts in all seating positions.

The above from the Global NCAP site. Link: https://www.globalncap.org/news/mahindra-xuv700

My guess was incorrect, so maybe I was the "ignorant" one here. Thanks for pointing this out, mate.

Not sure what the details were for the side impact test, as shared in an older post which I quote below for readers' convenience. it shows the XUV700 overturning. I would always be a bit circumspect with such, regardless of star ratings. Besides other things, a vehicle which has rolled over might produce very different body damage as compared to dummies, as our car cabins have many things lying around. From phones, to bottles, to other stuff, which would come into play. (Imagine ones whole body weight flung onto a thin metal-body phone!)

Originally Posted by Poitive

Found the video from Car and Bike, which shows the XUV700 actually toppling over. It is not shown as any hush hush thing, and has been discussed in the video, and a 5 star rating still been given as per their rules. An interesting aspect to consider about the XUV700 and also the testing protocol.




Link to video:
https://www.Youtube.com/watch?v=ARS7qVt_HiY

I wonder how such a vehicle got a 5 star rating. Maybe ron178 can add to it, if he is reading.

Originally Posted by Poitive

XUV 300 is just engineered better, on Tivoli's platform that has proper crumple and impact absorbing zones, that makes the shell safer than that of XUV 700. The difference in CoG between these is 2 cms whereas XUV 700 is longer by more that 2 ft so it should be more stable I think. But GNCAP crash tests are done at 64 kmph, with cars hitting stationary object. In head-on collisions on highways, the impact energy/g-forces will be far greater the GNCAP tests and luck will play a huge role then. So I would go with the safest car available.

From the videos I see, I find the XUV700 also crumpling as expected, which I expect is due to proper crumple zones. As far as I know most unibody (monocoque) cars have them; just not explicitly stated anymore, as it is taken as a given. Please correct me if the perception is incorrect.

With CoG data often not being available, and GC artificially being tampered with by manufacturers (had seen videos of Mahindra vehicles in the past), have relied on the height of a vehicle as an indicator of CoG. The XUV300 is 1627mm and XUV700 is 1755mm, so about 128mm or 12.8cms. Sure all of the difference won't translate to CoG, but 2cms seems surprisingly less. Could you please elaborate on the source of the data.

As before, I only give moderate consideration to star ratings, but that is my personal take. Will share another video or two on it soon. Feedback, control and composure, low CoG and suitable suspension gets more value from me, as I think in the hands of a good driver, they reduce the probability and intensity of the impact, if one sadly gets into one. Reduced intensity might be worth more than a star.

Originally Posted by JKBKS

I agree with your bit about driving!! Weaving through the traffic, fast corners and going at 50-60 on hills where the speed limit is 10-20 has a thrill component that is unmatched when compared to just going flat!!

- Always a pleasure to read your well thought and written posts!!. Keep it up

I would not talk about speed limits
Besides the above, there is also joy in being able to maintain a steady speed, or with very gentle changes in speed by perceiving situations well and tactful driving. A bit like "Limo-Driving"

Just to clarify:

Originally Posted by Poitive

Heck, in my case, I even enjoy taking a corner at 40kmph, sensing the weight distribution and traction of tyres as the car shifts weight and traction differs. Much more to enjoy in cars and driving than just speed

Here, I meant 40kmph turns in the city (typical speed limit of 50-60kmph), ie gentle slowish turns, but enjoyed due to the connect with the vehicle, feeling the weight transfer and sometimes even traction change. This also helps sensitize one to such feedback, which comes in handy in faster driving, and also helps one be a better driver on the whole.

- Thanks mate; I'm glad they are found so.

Originally Posted by shancz

...
1. That's the most neglected part of driving/riding these days.

2. When I first started reading reviews in magazines like Overdrive(Optra days and earlier) they used to say that "the steering is lifeless, the brakes are over-assisted and lack the natural progression". Now when I am watching the video reviews they say that "the steering is really smooth and makes maneuvering easy in the city and weights up sufficiently on the highways" and the reviews on brakes vary but none of them talks about "natural progression".

3. True and IMO a lower performing car can be more fun to drive on our roads and IIRC we already have dedicated thread(s) for it.

1, 3. IMO, feedback and connect with the car should be amongst the first things while moving from practical daily "chore-like" driving to an enthusiast-like driving. That input from the car is vital to build the connect.

In many older and cheaper cars, it was inherent, as they had less gadgetry and less overall insulation from the whole process. A Non PS Maruti 800 with slightly oversized tyres can be a joy. A very direct feeling in the whole experience. I wouldn't want that as my daily ride now, though. A balance of enjoyment and comfort it needed (one which the Optra Magnum got spot on).

2. There are two obvious reasons I see for such changes:
(a) People experience cars differently, and is often related to their instinct, which in turn is based on what they are used to driving.
Often what is described as a poor car, might simply be a different car from what the person is used to, than it being poor as such.
So, one needs to interpret views accordingly to make the best of them; yes, even from seasoned professionals like ones in Autocar, Car & Bike, Overdrive etc.

This is why I encourage people to drive themselves and a part of the reason for the Guide to Effective Test Drives thread (link)

(b) Such magazines are dependent on their revenue on car companies. Imagine not getting advertisements of invites to car launches! It can ruin the business. I would interpret what I read/hear from them in such light. Not saying they are meaningless, but can't be taken at face value either.

[Sort of OT:

Originally Posted by shancz

Understand your sentiments and respect your detailed approach. Folks switching between the usual social media channels will find it long and arduous but IMO this is the right way to do it.
Keeps the involvement, generates value and rewards the time being invested.

This is probably a bit like long-form classical music in a time of 3-4 minute pop songs; or perhaps in a more relatable way: of a TV/Web-series vs Insta/Shorts. Both provide different value, if the quality is there.

Quality over quantity, in terms of interactions has been preferred since an early age.]

Originally Posted by shancz

The only catch I see is when folks casually comment on the thread without understanding the context/requirements which requires some time.
...
Just one of the niggles we have to live with and I might have done so too somewhere down the line(apologies to OPs), but I try to understand the requirements and limit my recommendations on those.

While coming across your posts on other threads too: whether or not I agreed with them, or even knew enough to agree or disagree, I have found you to make comments on understanding things and making honest attempts at adding to the thought process. The attitude and earnest approach is much appreciated, especially as our comments might influence another in plonking a large chunk of money.

Unless in a professional capacity, usually, when I suggest things to people (on or off the forum) I try and point them to things they should look at, and to aid in giving appropriate weightage to factors. With some whom I know more closely, or when things are quite clearly for one (say) vehicle, I make more specific suggestions being a tad pushy, while respecting that it is their money and life, and it is about their preferences than my own. (That said, I too have no claims to perfection and might have erred now and then; but always been open to correction.)

I do find pushing someone to try out something with little cost (say, a TD) meaningful though.

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

It wasn't a casual suggestion, see the vehicles have become very good over time so the risk of ending up with a poor choice has become very less, the last time a vehicle was launched with poor brakes - I do not remember, uncomfortable suspension...

Mate, by that logic, the What-Car industry and most discussions would become quite irrelevant. It is a bit surprising to read this in the context of this thread. However, I think it better to not take this further, than come across as bickering. I do thank you for your views and participating in the discussions, mate.

~~~~~~~~

Originally Posted by shancz

PS : Will pause a bit on the replies now so the actual car hunt can regain focus. I will keep reading and acknowledging it with the overused/misused "thanks" (imagine relevant smileys here since I have reached the limit).

Whether directly or otherwise, posts on the thread, surely including yours, have triggered thoughts which influence things. Had I not started the thread - for better or worse - I was likely to have gone in for an MG Hector, or possibly in my excitement a Jeep Compass. So, please feel free to add as you wish, and if otherwise, I respect that too.

Further, your remark also comes at an interesting time. There are some developments at my end too. I will share more with the thread at an appropriate time.

[RijuC]

It's time for me to take some tough decision.

Summary of my usage:

1. 250 days a year= single occupant (me), 70 days a year= 2 occupants (me and wife), 10 days a year= full occupancy.

2. Location= NCR at present, Kolkata is native place (Diesel is no favourite at both the locations)

3. Yearly run= 10-12k at present, break-up 7-8k in NCR, 3-4k in neighbouring states (mostly in hills). 60%+ in highways for daily run (actually my daily office commute is 80% on highway).

4. Extremely poor last mile link (approx. 6 km one way from highway).

5. Need a little bit spacious vehicle.

6. Occasional snow/ mud/ slippery road conditions (yearly 2 times).

Now I have 3 choices:

1. Scorpio N Z4 Diesel AT (about to get delivered in 15 days) - I did a big mistake by cancelling the Petrol variant. The good FE figures were informed by owners after the cancellation. It was actually love at first sight and didn't find any major issue in 4 nos. of TD.

Major negatives: Diesel car in NCR, Gigantic dimensions for narrow roads, RWD with raised CoG in Mountains, 2 Ton weight on slippery/ black ice (this condition is 1-2 times in a year), too big for 2 persons family, no electrically foldable ORVM.

2. Toyota Hyryder Strong Hybrid S variant (Strong Hybrid base model). Not yet booked (already cancelled the Grand Vitara ZETA AT, but it was not Hybrid variant).

Major negatives: Bad interior ergonomics, too small boot space, no wow factor, same Maruti Suzuki vibe, cramped interior, build quality perceived to be inferior, no rear windscreen wiper, it's just a Toyota badge on a Maruti Suzuki car (sans the hybrid powertrain).

3. MS Jimny 5 door (Upcoming).

Shall I wait for this? We both have started liking this Jimny. I would love to buy a 4x4 with AT.

Major negatives: Maruti Suzuki perceived poor build quality, not so good in turns, cramped interior, bare minimum features, FE won't be more than 15 kmpl due to boxy shape.

All these 3 cars will be in 17.5-18.5 Lakhs on road as on date (I hope Jimny mid variant 4x4 AT will be within 2 million INR).

I know that the category and usage of all these 3 SUVs are entirely different. However, any last suggestion or pointers that I shall consider before I make the decision?

[heydj]

Originally Posted by RijuC

It's time for me to take some tough decision.

Summary of my usage:

1. 250 days a year= single occupant (me), 70 days a year= 2 occupants (me and wife), 10 days a year= full occupancy.

2. Location= NCR at present, Kolkata is native place (Diesel is no favourite at both the locations)

3. Yearly run= 10-12k at present, break-up 7-8k in NCR, 3-4k in neighbouring states (mostly in hills). 60%+ in highways for daily run (actually my daily office commute is 80% on highway).

4. Extremely poor last mile link (approx. 6 km one way from highway).

5. Need a little bit spacious vehicle.

6. Occasional snow/ mud/ slippery road conditions (yearly 2 times).

Now I have 3 choices:

1. Scorpio N Z4 Diesel AT (about to get delivered in 15 days) - I did a big mistake by cancelling the Petrol variant. The good FE figures were informed by owners after the cancellation. It was actually love at first sight and didn't find any major issue in 4 nos. of TD.

Major negatives: Diesel car in NCR, Gigantic dimensions for narrow roads, RWD with raised CoG in Mountains, 2 Ton weight on slippery/ black ice (this condition is 1-2 times in a year), too big for 2 persons family, no electrically foldable ORVM.

2. Toyota Hyryder Strong Hybrid S variant (Strong Hybrid base model). Not yet booked (already cancelled the Grand Vitara ZETA AT, but it was not Hybrid variant).

Major negatives: Bad interior ergonomics, too small boot space, no wow factor, same Maruti Suzuki vibe, cramped interior, build quality perceived to be inferior, no rear windscreen wiper, it's just a Toyota badge on a Maruti Suzuki car (sans the hybrid powertrain).

3. MS Jimny 5 door (Upcoming).

Shall I wait for this? We both have started liking this Jimny. I would love to buy a 4x4 with AT.

Major negatives: Maruti Suzuki perceived poor build quality, not so good in turns, cramped interior, bare minimum features, FE won't be more than 15 kmpl due to boxy shape.

All these 3 cars will be in 17.5-18.5 Lakhs on road as on date (I hope Jimny mid variant 4x4 AT will be within 2 million INR).

I know that the category and usage of all these 3 SUVs are entirely different. However, any last suggestion or pointers that I shall consider before I make the decision?

I would suggest getting Thar Petrol AT as that fits all criteria. Don't get something just for occasional full occupancy.

[Kosfactor]

Originally Posted by RijuC

All these 3 cars will be in 17.5-18.5 Lakhs on road as on date (I hope Jimny mid variant 4x4 AT will be within 2 million INR).

I know that the category and usage of all these 3 SUVs are entirely different. However, any last suggestion or pointers that I shall consider before I make the decision?

Thinking practically considering your detailed use case and budget.

Compact SUV segment - Grand Vitara Allgrip AWD should be one place to look at, AWD being the differentiator. But if you are not venturing into the said location when the roads are known to be slippery, other models and brands can be looked at within this segment.

You can always add a Jimny or Thar as a second car to the garage later.

[RijuC]

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

Compact SUV segment - Grand Vitara Allgrip AWD should be one place to look at, AWD being the differentiator.

I forgot to mention one of the major point in usage summary, I need an AT.

[JKBKS]

Originally Posted by RijuC

I forgot to mention one of the major point in usage summary, I need an AT.

XUV 300 Petrol AT could be another option. Under 4 mtr with an internal space of Creta, Safer than most cars on road, has a 7 airbag option too. Since most of your travel is on highway you wont get bothered by slight lag at low speeds. Even this has a workaround. Drive in Manual at low speeds and switch to AT on highways...

[Poitive]

Originally Posted by RijuC

It's time for me to take some tough decision.
...
Now I have 3 choices:

1. Scorpio N Z4 Diesel AT ...

2. Toyota Hyryder Strong Hybrid S variant (Strong Hybrid base model) ...

3. MS Jimny 5 door (Upcoming)...
...
All these 3 cars will be in 17.5-18.5 Lakhs on road as on date (I hope Jimny mid variant 4x4 AT will be within 2 million INR).

I know that the category and usage of all these 3 SUVs are entirely different. However, any last suggestion or pointers that I shall consider before I make the decision?

Car design, like any engineering and aesthetic design, is full of compromises on one aspect in favour of another - series of trade-offs based on whom the car is intended for. IMO, in general, where possible and if choices allow, it is a good idea to go for a car design-type which is close to one's main needs.

Suspension design choice example: A suspension of an off-road based vehicle will be designed quite differently from one focused on tarmac. Off-road based design would often opt for a connected (solid/live axle) type rear suspension to allow for situations when one side is raised, and the one wants a higher contact at the opposite end, as this helps get out of tricky off-road situations which are driven upon slowly (imagine rocky terrain). For tarmac based design, an independent suspension is usually a lot more suitable, as this reduces the effect of one wheel going through undulations being seen on the opposite wheel, thereby providing a better ride, handling and composure at higher speeds. (Midway, you have things like a torsion beam, which is very well implemented in the Harrier). All these are generalizations and of course, a lot, of course, depends on the implementation of the design, but the basics do remain. Besides the type of suspension, other things like spring rates, articulation, stabilizer rods, etc too would come into play.

Based on the above, IMO an XUV700 with it's independent suspension and lower CoG seems to be the better choice over a non-independent (solid axle) Scropio-N for your kind of use. (the picture in my post above makes the XUV700 unstable for side-ways forces, and I expect the Scorpio N to only be worse; it is yet to be tested). If you had crazy high mileage, the BoF durability of the Scorpio N might have been a factor, but here, I don't think it is. Further, if you were going for a 4x4 version of the Scorpio N, there was a case, if you had such usage. Since you mention 20 lakhs as a figure, the budget too should not be a constraint.

One factor not mentioned above is also that the XUV700 has seen a year of customer feedback, and improvements (eg the suspension issue recall), while the Scropio-N is pretty new to the scene.

If you find the FE of the petrol Scorpio N acceptable, since it is the same engine on a more aerodynamic form with a smaller wind-facing surface, the FE of the XUV700 is unlikely to be worse with similar driving conditions and tyre pressures; more likely, it will be better. I believe there are fewer availability constraints in petrol models of the XUV700 up to AX5 variant.

IMO, the XUV700 is a much more sorted vehicle than the Scorpio N and more suitable for most use-cases. However, the heart wants what it does, and I understand that too.

The Others: Haven't gone into details, but the Jimny 4x4 would have similar arguments as the above, I presume; maybe even more strongly applicable.

[shancz]

Originally Posted by RijuC

It's time for me to take some tough decision.

For a usage of 12000 kms / year with majority highways, some slushworks and adequate boot space for full occupancy Delhi - Kolkata road trip once/twice per year.
The car should also have an AT and petrol powered. AWD or 4x4 seems preferred.

Some observations :
- Are you sure you want to deal with the complexities and FE hit a 4x4 is going to bring when your usage for the same is once/twice per year. And in that case are you sure 4x4 is a need and not a want ?
While I don't know your locations but would request you to re-evaluate this requirement.

- Space on offer is relative to the size of the people using the car. Your feedback on the Grand Vitara/HYRyder removes it as an option. Although its the other way around this time with the car being a Toyota with Suzuki badging for the strong hybrid

- The Jimny doesn't work for your requirements IMHO. If you're unhappy with the boot space and interiors of the HYRyder the Jimny will be even more. Latest reports pitch it as a sub-4m.
On top of that it's not designed for long distance highway cruising that you intend to do.

- The XUV700 Petrol AT seems to match most of your requirements except the size but isn't that expected when you need a spacious car with a spacious boot ?
AWD or not is your call based on your evaluation for the need of one and the pricing.

[RijuC]

My location is Gurgaon (RTO will be either HR26 or HR98).

Scorpio N Z4 Diesel AT on road price at Gurgaon is approx 18.3 Lakhs. My original budget was 16 lakhs maximum. Hence this is 2.3 lakhs extra already.

XUV AX5 Petrol AT OTR price is 21 Lakhs for Gurgaon.

For broken roads and Highways in plains, the Scorpio N is undoubtedly a very good SUV. And my 60%+ usage is on these routes. The 5 star GNCAP safety rating secured by Scorpio N gives a peace of mind for this use case.

However, the drives I enjoy the most are through the winding roads, and sharp hairpin bends inclines in the mountains (mostly 2000 meters and above).
For this part only I am not sure how the Scorpio N will behave. Can I expect the "road chipak ke" feel of the Swift? No.

The BOF SUVs like Bolero, older Scorpio, Sumo and other true SUVs rule these mountain roads (apart from the mountain king, the Alto). Upto 2019 I frequently visited these places for trekking/ hiking, in shared jeeps. Some trips were good, some were nauseating. My driving journey started after the first lockdown of 2020. [By the way, my background is trekking, camping etc. mostly solo and few in groups. Road trip to mountains is a recent madness.]

Due to knee injuries, I am forced to book an Automatic Transmission car. Otherwise I don't need a new car.

[Kosfactor]

Originally Posted by RijuC

However, the drives I enjoy the most are through the winding roads, and sharp hairpin bends inclines in the mountains (mostly 2000 meters and above).
For this part only I am not sure how the Scorpio N will behave. Can I expect the "road chipak ke" feel of the Swift? No.

Although it's not safe to drive any vehicle fast through mountain roads, a Scorpio will not have any trouble sticking to the road it's just that your passenger's lunch needs to stay inside their stomach

Observe how the vehicle's weight shift with your steering and pedal inputs , learn to keep its body movements under control and you'd be very happy with it.

[Poitive]

Originally Posted by RijuC

1. Scorpio N Z4 Diesel AT on road price at Gurgaon is approx 18.3 Lakhs... XUV AX5 Petrol AT OTR price is 21 Lakhs for Gurgaon.

2. However, the drives I enjoy the most are through the winding roads, and sharp hairpin bends inclines in the mountains (mostly 2000 meters and above).
For this part only I am not sure how the Scorpio N will behave. Can I expect the "road chipak ke" feel of the Swift? No.

3. The BOF SUVs like Bolero, older Scorpio, Sumo and other true SUVs rule these mountain roads (apart from the mountain king, the Alto)...

1. Not sure if the variant comparison is equivalent.
I checked for the XUV700 AX3 in Gurgaon on Car Dekho, and without optional extras it shows 19 lakhs. You could save a further about 25k or so on the insurance which is shown at 89k. Some accessories would be needed which aren't a part of the 19 above, so factor in for that.

2. For such kinds of roads and driving, as a thumb rule, a low CoG is important. Further, if the CoG is low enough, one can have wider tyres to increase traction (though at the cost of acceleration and FE) for the "chipak ke" feel. Have talked about how it would likely be in the Scorpio N in the past.

3. Of course higher vehicles routinely traverse such terrain - from overloaded buses and trucks to assorted Mahindras as junta taxis (been in some ), others are better suited for such. The reason for such vehicles being popular in the hills is more to do with the economics of maintenance, needs of higher GC, ease of BoF maintenance in local garages for accidented vehicles, parts availability etc.; not their dynamic character.

Maruti Vans/Omni too have ruled the hills. Doesn't mean they were the most stable and suited cars for taking winding roads and hairpin bends.

Coming back to the Scorpio N, what I expect is that it will manage things well and feel in control till it quite suddenly won't. In other words, it will give a confident feeling, and then allow a very short window for correction before going out of control. This need not be a deal-breaker if your heart is set on the vehicle, as can be compensated by driving a tad slower, and more cautiously. Drive it based on it's ability and all is well, as it is for most vehicles.