[Knightrider]

Originally Posted by BleueNinja

Tell me about it

I initially had a budget of 16 lacs for myself. I naively thought i will get everything that i am looking for in this price bracket. Boy o boy How wrong i was.

XUV 700 AX5 D MT, Safari XTA+ and Harrier XZA (post discounts) were costing me the same (i opted for BH number plate)

What you will also see is that variants distribution and those variants are priced as such that you are compelled to move towards a higher variant.

I personally feel Kia Seltos and VW Virtus have variants distribution and pricing done right. Harrier with XMA-S has become a better alternative to XUV 700 AX-3.

I was in the same situation with budget of 17L and looking for a 7 seater. Even on extending the budget upto 20L, the variants available in that budget in Safari, XUV7OO and ScorpioN had many important features missing.
Ultimately went for Kia Carens top variant in Petrol Auto and happy with what I got in a 20L car.

[Poitive]

Originally Posted by shancz

1. ... But if you haven't, do check out some insights on the platform/structure in the following threads :

• RSR: Hyundai (Are Indian Hyundais different from developed market Hyundais? If so, how?)
• RSR: Kia (Are Indian Kias different from developed-market Kias? If so, how?)

2. Agree and their cars also have a very uplifting feel to them...

3. ... During the early days of the Swift, Maruti dealers and salesmen were high headed too, Hyundai was clearly the opposite and better. But over time Maruti seems to have brought them back to ground.

4. It seems worse as Tata cars(especially the Harrier/Safari) haven't been trouble free and dealer apathy(which impacts all brands) makes it worse, so the number of complaints increases. ...

5. But the most unfortunate part, to me, is that quite often Tata sides with the dealers and only on pestering/social media outrage is when the HQ accepts any mistake and makes amends. Although Jeep India is aiming to dethrone Tata from that spot

6. Absolutely and involuntarily we contribute to the same. But seems like the trend these days is to take it to social media for a quick resolution/last resort ...

7. True, a friend booked the XUV700 AX3 Petrol MT for the same amount and it had steel wheels with wheel caps ...

8. They should've changed the shroud by now.

1. Thanks for those links, mate. While I did have an idea, these spelt it out more clearly.

2. Besides Hyundai and Kia, MG too seems to be headed in a similar direction, though they seem to be at least a bit more robust. Time will tell how well they hold out in our conditions.

3. The power of competition! A pity that some manufacturers have gone (GM/Chevrolet, Ford etc and some like Honda might), while others are cheapening things to stay competitive (VW group, Koreans). I would have said that with time, our market might value solid engineering over bling as it matures, but with NGT like diktats limiting usable life of cars, the viability of those too diminishes significantly.

4. One thing to bear in mind about Harrier+Safari complaints vs others (eg XUV700) is the number of vehicles sold; also ones which are a bit old, as older vehicles are more likely to have trouble. It is the failure-rate over a certain usage which is of more value (ideally with age weighed in), however one often casually forms an opinion based on the total bad-cases one comes across.

5. This sound very unfair, but I would not comment much before really knowing the case(s). Social media also gives the 'complainant' a lot of power to misrepresent how things actually happened, though that goes for all companies.

5b. Based on failure rate per km driven, Jeep might well have done that ages ago!

While on one hand, I feel happy I didn't pay the cheque for the Compass, like I almost did, the other side also is that I would have had the new vehicle ages ago and would have been enjoying it.

6. What social media is, is also a tool to sully the reputation of competitors. One needs to filter what one reads, as it is typically full of half-truths, and also that only some aspects get attention. Also the inbuilt bias in such systems. Eg: When the MG Hector was pulled like a cart (by a Donkey?) it was big headlines. Yes, MG handled it oddly. However, the low failure rate of MG is hardly reported.

7. I didn't know the AX3 could cost as much. A typo?

Another aspect: I often read about a 20 lakh car not having this or that feature. What one also needs to bear in mind that one needs to not just see the price of the car to demand features but the overall product one is getting at that price point. A nearly full size, reasonably sophisticated "SUV" with good engine specs, mulitilink independent suspension etc. at the prices they are available at also needs to be considered. It is still more of a VFM variant, than a premium one in context.

Originally Posted by shancz

Agree but the XUV700's model split had some glaring omissions like the absense of auto folding side RVMs even in the AX5
- ... like I have mentioned earlier in the thread, I have become obsolete

- This reminds me of the time when Celeron processors were introduced. IIRC the cost of producing those and equivalent Pentium processors was almost the same. They were basically the same processor with some small part changed (lesser cache, IIRC). The idea of the price differential had nothing to do with costing, but to induce the buyer to go for the higher priced product; also to maximize the economies of scale.

- I am quite in the same boat!

Originally Posted by BleueNinja

... However, tata seems to be working to rectify this. In addition to 1000 kms checkup, TATA arranged a home visit by service folks to see if i have any feedback to share or if i have any doubts/queries or if everything is right with the car, something similar to what VW does.
There are regular feedback calls after service/showroom visit.

Thanks for sharing this, mate. Such a welcome step. I really hope Tata introduces a facelift with the knee-console issue sorted, and takes steps towards improving the service experience. Though with less bling, for an enthusiast, the Harrier has much sorted on the basics: lower centre of gravity than most (all?) in the segment, sorted suspension+chassis with good comfort, control and plays well into the feedback system along with it's lovable HPS.

Had I been going in for an AT, the knee-console issue would be much much easier to ignore and would've gone ahead. On an MT, it is a major concern.

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

You can purchase an XL6 AT which is an MPV meant for city use at ~ 18L- along with some accessories, however at times you will feel that it has left it's engine in the parking lot.
....
Recently a friend of mine suffered greatly at the hands of Acko insurance, it was a case of penny wise - pound foolish.

- This really had me . It would especially feel so after the XUV700, the MX petrol of which has staggering volume : price and bhp : price ratios! (not that they should be what one is looking at!)

- Could you please share what went wrong with Acko. Though we have stuck with traditional providers, the option of the likes of Acko did pass my mind several times.

~~~~~

Variant Upgrades

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

So when you are planning to spend ~20L , choose wisely. A few lakhs here and there won't matter a lot in the 8-10 years that the vehicle stays with you.

Originally Posted by BleueNinja

100% agree with you. When you are making a purchase of a car that will serve you for upcoming many years it always makes sense to spend a bit more if financially possible and feasible & get the car or variant you are liking.

The trouble with that is that every lakh or two, there is something better available, and one jumps from a mid/upper variant to the next car at a lower variant.

I very casually started with the Honda City as the benchmark pricing (considering it sold at a roughly similar price at the Optra a decade ago), so had about 14-15L OTR in mind. Saw mid level Seltos and entry level Hector at a bit higher. Though I wasn't a features guy and would be happier to pay for more 'car' so considered those. Eventually was onto the Compass and was looking at cars 1.5 times the one I started with!

The difficult part is to draw that not-to-cross-line.

~~~~~~

A point about value of money and cars:

What I was talking about was the steep rise in the past couple of years; a result of pent up demand and Covid-induced supply-chain issues affecting supply.

Overall, when I convert the price I paid for the Optra Magnum in 2011 and adjust it for inflation, IIRC, it was very roughly about 17 lakhs. Practially the Optra Magnum was a mid variant (the lower one was discontinued just before that, so was the lower of the two on sale then). In about as much, or a bit more, one could get a mid level Hector (a while back though). In that limited sense, cars have become cheaper.

~~~~~~

Variant Configurations

Sharing some thoughts

As before in the post, one needs to keep the overall prospect in mind, that in vehicles like the XUV700 and Harrier+Safari, one is getting a lot of car for the money. So, one needs to bear that in mind than just the price of 20+. Further, inflation adjusted, as above, one is getting much more than in the past, I think (not studied this - might be wrong).

What has also changed over the years is what we aspire and expect from a car. Back in 2011, the Optra Magnum I had was without airbags! No electric this or that. A simple Double-Din music system. It didn't even have a FE indication. That was (equavalent) of a mid-level variant of what used to be a D segment car a few years before I purchased (similar category as the Octavia, Civic, Corolla etc). No ABS or any electronic aids. Plain simple 'car' (and a lot of it!). Today, we expect much more; much much more.

Ones with those expectations should really be looking at the higher models and their prices, and keep in mind that many who otherwise might not pay for that are getting a choice to have a better 'car' with lesser features. (Not talking about safety features, which was discussed in the Scorpio-N thread - details in the quoted thread a few posts above). I have a friend who was considering the City 4th gen, and then seriously considered the XUV700 MX variant, as like me, he too focuses more on the car than 'features'.

All the above said, yes, I agree that like most businesses, car manufacturers too play the game of enticing a customer to consider their product seriously and then try to get them to pay more - it is happening with my purchase too!

~~~~~

Originally Posted by Knightrider

... Ultimately went for Kia Carens top variant in Petrol Auto and happy with what I got in a 20L car.

Though without driving it, what I like about the Kia Carens is that it provides a fairly compact looking and consequently fairly city-friendly 7 seater, and one with a wheelbase longer than the others mentioned in a pocket-friendly price. I imagine it to be spacious inside, with that 2780mm wheelbase.

~~~~~

Car Seat Design

Originally Posted by chinkara

This does my head in. I also could not find a comfortable driving position in my TD of the new Safari. Storme had one of the most comfortable seating for both driver and the rear seat. Why tinker?

Mate, sharing some thoughts about what companies would need to consider while designing seats:

• Floor to ceiling distance.
• H5 point (roughly: distance of seat from road level)
• Angle of seat pan and backrest angle for various heights. This further links to:
• The angle of the movement of feet and legs while pressing the pedals. Based on the seat pan and back adjustment, they too would change. Optimal angles help a lot in how comfortable a car feels to drive.
• How far the pedals are to be pressed too varies in a car, and the distance between the depressed pedal and lower back needs to be appropriate. Even a poorly adjusted seat can make the clutch feel harder (discussed earlier in the thread).
• Visibility, both front and back, for various heights.

I am sure there would be other aspects on ergonomics. Based on that, some tinkering becomes inevitable. That said, I agree that when a manufacturer has a good and proven template to start with, they are expected to do better - the knee-console issue is a bit of a disaster in design in my books.

~~~~~

PS: Pardon me if there are minor errors in the post, as it became way too long and complicated to check with the time on hand. At times, it is really tedious to not split things into separate and simpler posts.

[chinkara]

Originally Posted by Poitive

Mate, sharing some thoughts about what companies would need to consider while designing seats:

• Floor to ceiling distance.
• H5 point (roughly: distance of seat from road level)
• Angle of seat pan and backrest angle for various heights. This further links to:
• The angle of the movement of feet and legs while pressing the pedals. Based on the seat pan and back adjustment, they too would change. Optimal angles help a lot in how comfortable a car feels to drive.
• How far the pedals are to be pressed too varies in a car, and the distance between the depressed pedal and lower back needs to be appropriate. Even a poorly adjusted seat can make the clutch feel harder (discussed earlier in the thread).
• Visibility, both front and back, for various heights.

I am sure there would be other aspects on ergonomics. Based on that, some tinkering becomes inevitable. That said, I agree that when a manufacturer has a good and proven template to start with, they are expected to do better - the knee-console issue is a bit of a disaster in design in my books.

But the issues are not movement related. Even in a stopped car, I could not easily find a comfortable position. This suggests that the basic contour has changed. Why, god knows.
I am not even talking about clutch travel / hardness or visibility etc.

[Kosfactor]

Originally Posted by Poitive

- This really had me . It would especially feel so after the XUV700, the MX petrol of which has staggering volume : price and bhp : price ratios! (not that they should be what one is looking at!)

- Could you please share what went wrong with Acko. Though we have stuck with traditional providers, the option of the likes of Acko did pass my mind several times.

Optra Magnum diesel, Verna diesel etc are in its time prime examples of how a good engine can solve a lot of problems. Over long drives a good drive train is the best company, one that would never go to sleep or snore sitting next to you.

I still remember one of the prominent journalists comparing Optra Diesel to premium German sedans of its time - It was all about the engine.

I do have to admit that I like XL6 for a lot of things, Its easier to drive than an Innova and still carry 6 in very good comfort, ventilated seats, very nice infotainment etc but the drive train is a cause for concern, I had an oops moment because I trusted the engine & transmission to do its job like any other AT would and it along with the traction control \ ESP had some surprises for me instead.

Acko appears to be an escape artist, the claim process seemed to take forever and the customer care was not responsive. I still recommend insurance companies that have an actual office. My father had to visit one such office to get the claim through as insurance surveyors were overloaded due to floods, it was very straight forward process to meet someone face to face and ask for help.

[shancz]

Originally Posted by Poitive

but with NGT like diktats limiting usable life of cars, the viability of those too diminishes significantly.

True, such a waste to scrap/force-sell a car which has at least 15 more years of service left in it. Hence I don't really mind the cost cutting if its not an eyesore, doesn't rattle or affect performance in any way, like the glove box plastic on the HyRyder/Grand Vitara

Originally Posted by Poitive

- however one often casually forms an opinion based on the total bad-cases one comes across.
- This sound very unfair, but I would not comment much before really knowing the case(s).

- Agreed, that's an important factor not apparent to most of us.

- I politely disagree. Since I didn't experience it in person I will side with the customer because I don't think anyone would be interested in going back and forth to Tata ASC just to tarnish their image. Also in all the cases I have read on the forum, TML hasn't even in a single case, issued a clarification or denounced the customer's claim. That's not a very difficult thing to do especially since they already exist on social media.
My concern with TML isn't about the niggles/issues/quality lapses in their flagships but when their internal escalation matrix fails to address an issue and if the customer posts on social media/forums, things start to move and issues get resolved. That's not done for people like me who don't exist on such platforms or don't believe in dragging such issues to public notice.
Some examples, I have linked the posts which mention the same to shorten the reads :

• NotanF1driver : Safari (Issues in my 5-month old Tata Safari | Terrible after-sales support)
• greyhound82 : Harrier (Water leakage & electrical issues in my brand new 2020 Tata Harrier. EDIT: Solved (page 6))
• Harrier : (Dr Aman Veer Singh) (Tata Harrier woes right from day 1 of ownership | Defective steering rack assembly & pump)

Apart from these the popular issue with Dada Motors Ludhiana (Dada Motors takes back defective Tata Safari; no replacement given even after 2 months). While I might not be convinced/agreeable to some parts of this ordeal which happened later but what transpired till the first two videos was enough for Tata Motors to sort out the issue without the paying customer bearing all the losses.

Originally Posted by Poitive

- What social media is, is also a tool to sully the reputation of competitors.
- Yes, MG handled it oddly. However, the low failure rate of MG is hardly reported.

- True, that's why I stay away from it, only info is TBHP which is moderated.
- True, such stunts may be legal but not very productive and IIRC MG had responded by filing a case ? They had the chance to address the concerns which were genuine(some issues with the AT IIRC) but they missed that and then went on the arrogance bandwagon. While I didn't follow it to a resolution but my take away was that MG could have handled it better.

Originally Posted by Poitive

the other side also is that I would have had the new vehicle ages ago and would have been enjoying it.

That's the dilemma but in your case its not that simple either with vehicles failing on the basics.

Originally Posted by Poitive

7. I didn't know the AX3 could cost as much. A typo?

Not a typo, 19.33 lakhs for the AX3 Petrol MT, on road Mysore(as per Carwale). Some accessories and 1 year extended warranty make it almost 20 lakhs.

Originally Posted by Poitive

Another aspect: I often read about a 20 lakh car not having this or that feature.

This I agree with especially after accompanying a friend on the popular "20 lakh car hunt". Started with the Venue and on to Creta, Alcazar, Grand Vitara, HyRyder, Taigun and finally the XUV700. It was quite evident how the "car" changed/upgraded as more money was demanded. Creta/Alcazar went up in premium-ness and features, Taigun used that money to deliver a cracking drive and solid build(ratified today by GNCAP) and the XUV700 was offering so much more car for the same money and a very strong and capable one at that.
Hence I agree, I was wrong but that feeling, although wrong comes from the innate nature that when I spend more money on my next car I would want it to have better features than my current one and some(like alloys) are just expected as default.

Originally Posted by Poitive

- The idea of the price differential had nothing to do with costing, but to induce the buyer to go for the higher priced product; also to maximize the economies of scale.

This I agree and I believe its the manufacturer's right to do so. I wish that someday features like rear-wash/wipe would become standard at least from the mid trims and glad that some manufactures are already doing it.

Originally Posted by Poitive

A point about value of money and cars:
What I was talking about was the steep rise in the past couple of years; a result of pent up demand and Covid-induced supply-chain issues affecting supply.

I misunderstood this and your analogy is correct, also aided by the fact that the taxation has increased and also added conditions which tend to penalize the larger capacity and dimensions which the cars under discussion fall into.


PS : Had to wait to get to a computer to post this as it was a highly tedious task on the phone, hence the delay

[Poitive]

Nissan Qashqai and not Nissan X-Trail coming to India?

(Also some very preliminary thoughts on checking the Qashqai online)

This is speculative, and the hypothesis might fall flat though. We'll soon know.

Came across this article:
New Nissan SUV spied in India before launch?
(Published: October 14, 2022)
It states:

Now Nissan is looking to continue the momentum by unveiling a new car on the 18th of October. So what could Nissan launch in India? Earlier it was speculated to be Nissan leaf. However, we have obtained a spy of a very different Nissan car in India. This spied car could be the Nissan X-Trail. In today’s article, let’s talk about the Nissan X-trail in India.

Why I think it might be the Qashqai and not the Nissan X-Trail
(much can be observed in the pictures below)

1. The front light is more like that in the Qashqai than the X-Trail. Besides other things, it is slimmer in the Qashqai, which resembles the spyshots.
   .
2. The curves around the fuel lid are more like the Qashqai and not like the X-Trail at all. The crease goes below the lid in the X-Trail.
   .
3. The crease on the side profile in the lower part of the doors is also like the Qashqai and not the X-Trail. Note the part of the crease close to the front tyre and how it meets the rest of the body.
   .
4. The boot door detail when seen sideways. Check the outermost part which is just below the glass. Now see how it meets the bumper. the lower part is recessed in the Qashqai and it comes outwards in the X-Trail. In other words, the angle of the lower part of the rear door and the road level (horizontal) is acute in the Qashqai and Obtuse in the X-Trail.
   .
5. Unless Nissan wants to make India as some export hub for the SUV (not likely, as there would have been leaks earlier, as many vendors are involved), it would come as a CKD. Ballpark pricing would be in the vicinity of the Hyundai Tucson, which would make it very difficult to sell. Most would go for the stability of Hyundai than Nissan.
   .
6. Qashqai can fill in a very interesting space - that of a quality 5 seater crossover around, say, 20-28L (a wide price range of the Mild Hybrid variant too comes to India). With the increase in prices of the Tucson with the generation change, this space opens up nicely. Currently, the Qashqai range starts at an equivalent of approx 18.3L in Australia. This is a drive-away price. UK prices are higher. They also include mild-hybrid options.

The challenge for this would be the Jeep Compass, but I would not be surprised with a more practical cabin in the Qashqai as it is a bit larger.

A few specs from the Australia site:

Overall height: 1,625
Overall length: 4,425
Overall width: 1,835
Wheelbase: 2,665 mm

Kerb Weight: 1,451 kg
(UK site has: 1,331 - 1,356 kg)

Engine capacity; 1,332 CC
Max. torque, Nm / rpm: 250 / 1,600 - 3,750
Max. engine power, kW / rpm: 110 / 5,500 (147.5 BHP)
Acceleration 0 - 100 km/h, seconds : 8.9

There are versions with the rear suspension as torsion beam (ie semi-independent) and also with multi-link (almost surely would be independent, as a solid-axle would not make much sense in such a car).

This is such an apt size for the city. Just what I might find ideal, in case it is launched. I do have my doubts with the engine for my purpose, considering what I felt about the Nissan Kicks. The addition of mild-hybrid might make it better, but would come at a premium which might make the value proposition questionable. The UK site has mild hybrid versions. The power, torque and 0-100 is better in the Australia site, as I think they are confirming to a less strict pollution standard allowing for a different engine tune.

Unlikely to be so, but what if Nissan tests waters with the CKD route, and if there is sufficient demand, starts producing it here! There is a gap of a sporty, spacious, solid and quality 5 seater at around the 20L. Could fill the space below what the outgoing Tucson filled (not diesel). Too much thought at this stage; let us get some more news I got a bit excited at the proposition of getting a more suitable car.

Pictures:









Source: Spy-pics from MotorOctane; others (mainly) from the Nissan Qashqai Australian site.
https://www.nissan.com.au/vehicles/c...n/qashqai.html

@Mods: In case you'd like to have this post/speculation in another thread, please do let a this post also remain in this thread to continue the discussion around it. For the convenience or readers, will also post a very brief part on the X-Trail speculation thread. Link: https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...d-india-2.html (2022 Nissan X-Trail spied in India)

[Edit: posted there too at this link: https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...ml#post5423267 (2022 Nissan X-Trail spied in India) ]

~~~~~~~~

PS: Folks, I will reply to the ongoing conversation soon. Hardly being able to write off late. The Qashqai prospect at a good price has gotten to me, considering how much praise I had for the Nissan Kicks. This seems something between the Kicks and the outgoing Tucson.

[shancz]

Originally Posted by Poitive

This seems something between the Kicks and the outgoing Tucson.

Having seen the Quashqai(2015) in person I can confirm that the moment you look at it it screams Nissan's S-Cross

Since the current gen uses the same platform this will be in direct competition to the Creta/Kushaq/HyRyder twins and I would suspect that's what Nissan's aiming for.
They need to expand their network and for that they need a high volume car. Having bombed out of the low cost hatchback market they targeted the CSUV and post that this would seem like the optimal segment to target. But again its just my hypothesis.
Launching a premium SUV could get them margins but not the numbers so I would suspect the X-Trail isn't coming. Not to forget that they had launched it at least a decade ago and pulled it out so that factor could also play in about launching a "flopped" model.
As for premium they already have the the GTR in their catalogue and that hasn't helped much as expected.


PS : As for the spy pics whats stopping them from doing a test of any international model, prospective or not, for this market or other similar ones where Nissan enjoys a much better position and reputation. A lot of other manufacturers do the same.

[RijuC]

I have already posted in the Nissan Kicks thread that the Vertex Nissan, Sohna Road, Gurgaon dealership SA informed me that Nissan will be launching 2 new cars in Feb, 2023 (expected) in India- Qashqai and Ariya.

They also have two big photographs of these two cars. Qashqai in blue which looks like a smaller Kicks and one copper/ bronze colour Ariya which is a Hybrid type.

The SA couldn't inform any further details of these two models.

[shancz]

No need to guess, here comes the news :
Nissan : Future Plans (Nissan X-Trail, Juke & Qashqai showcased in India).

Let's see which of them eventually get launched.

[Poitive]

Folks, have been rather inactive in on the forum for a while, as the whole topic of getting a new car is getting to me a bit. The below is a bit of a rant, mixed with emotions and logic, as one might have with friends. You just might want to skip the post.

When I think of it with harsh logic, things are quite simple: choose the compromise and move along; pondering over issues is not worthwhile beyond a point. And by that logic, I would only need a few hours to decide and move on.

Back in October 2021, I was supposed to get a Hector. The delay made me rethink and here we are over a year further on. Then, the back seat took a large part of the focus, as I had been driving lesser and was being driven more. Just before that, Covid too had changed things. Without getting into personal details, will just say that is has triggered a series of minor and some not-so-minor changes in life - some which are yet to unfold.

This gets one into a web of 'what-if' like thoughts, due to the changes, and prolongs the decision.

Further points of consideration - General:

• Things moved to my driving myself for a large part of the car's life - at least in the first half.
• Last year, being one car less was a very unwelcome situation and I thought it would be very difficult to manage. Over time, realized that it is not as much of a pain, hence have ended up waiting as long. With the mindset I had earlier, would have made the compromises would've gotten the car one way or another.
• With the Covid and other changes in life, one wonders of the prudence of spending over 20L on a car (when one is being able to manage without it for a year) when one is not finding a suitable car at all. All seem like major compromises (some thoughts on this below).
• Despite the above, the choice still is very much to go for the purchase. Just makes it more difficult to plonk the money when one is not satisfied enough.
• Thankfully, the back has been better, thereby finding my mind wandering towards sedans every so often. There being a lack of choice in that space for my use case has quite kept them out.

Further points of consideration - Automotive:
(for ones who joined the thread later: all the below are for Diesel MT versions, as that is what I generally prefer)

There are repeated questions in my head about the prudence of a buying a diesel vehicle in Delhi/NCR with it's 10 year rule, and especially how the BS4 ones were prevented from use recently. For poor reasons diesel vehicles which have been duly authorized and have paid taxes for use for the said periods have been put out of use due to politics and optics. The major reasons for pollution lie elsewhere, but not worth getting into details of it on this thread.


MG Hector

What I have really appreciated about this one is it has very few complaints from actual buyers. It has come across as the most trouble-free prospect. The service reviews, too, are good. No major automotive deal-breakers when seen from the head. Easy to drive, no ergonomic complaints (knee-console etc)

Though the chrome, especially in the front is bothersome, overall I find the design quite palatable. I actually like the rear. Though this car is primarily my call, the family likes it's looks and finds it only second to the Compass. The chrome and looks issue is well addressed in the plus versions (though the extra spend is hard to justify).

For my use, as envisaged a year or two ago, it was a good option. Most legroom and comfort in the second row. Excellent city ride. Generally aesthetic cabin with few loud elements, and a cohesive appeal. The screen did seem oddly large, but would be easy to get used to. The portrait orientation is ideal for maps. Lack of physical controls is an issue though.

From the driver's seat, it simply feels okay. Okay at most things. Not exciting. Does not excite the driver in me in any way. This is hard for the heart to bear, despite the mind giving this one a near thumping yes.

Near and not complete yes, as there seem to be bigger question marks about the future of Chinese companies in India being comfortable and long-term (and this one owned by the govt/PLA). That is what I generally envisage now, and what I hear from friends who know the subject better. My experience with the dealer and more importantly with the company too has not been pleasant. All this makes it a bit lesser palatable on the whole, as compared to earlier.


Tata Harrier (/ Tata Safari )

This is the one that suits my sense of a car. It is the lowest one of the lot. Best height to track-width ratio making it inherently more stable than the others.Though a torsion beam, a very well sorted suspension, giving the independent rear suspensions a run for their money.

It is amongst the dying breed which has a steering with some feel and feedback thanks to it's HPS (Hydraulic Power Steering). This is something I immensely value; even more so when I spend more time with EPS - it makes me yearn for an HPS.

This is one car which connects one to the drive, while giving one confidence to do good speeds with safety, and in a sense is the essence of enjoyable driving for many, including me. The rear brakes being drum aren't good enough to match the overall setup, but newer versions (Jet?) have disc at the rear too.

Makes this very hard to not buy. I am not worried about Tata's service (more on that on the reply to @shancz's post later sometime).

What makes it hard to buy is the NVH which I found very bothersome in a piece used less than 10k kms, and the knee-console issue. Both are everyday irritants. If it was only only one of those two issues, I might well have been driving this by now.

One tends to notice the steering wheel a lot, and how atrocious this one is also adds to things, but hey, I lived with the even more sorry-looking one on the Optra too! Not a deal breaker.

Since the second row of this might be used a lot in the latter part of it's life, the lack of recline is missed; a poor back angle (for my use) also makes it worse. [For the front row, the twins have the easiest ingress-egress with a suitable H5 point and a good aperture (seat to top of door opening, and back to front, including for the feet)].

For this, and for the disc brakes, have considered the Safari too; also for a better relevant variants for the spend. It does not feel as exciting to drive, as the rear is heavier and the weight is higher up. Though not immensely, it is felt; takes out the special edge one feels in the Harrier somewhat. Further, the high hip point (seat height to road distance) on the second row is an issue making ingress-egress uncomfortable.

Harrier (or even Safari) is the one the heart wants, but the mind would not budge. I can see myself smiling in this one; for a year or a bit. Then, can imagine scolding myself to get this one.


Jeep Compass

While I was most excited about this one, things are different now. I don't care too much for the Jeep badge. Purely on a car basis and driving experience, I think I would enjoy the Harrier more as it would need lesser of slowing down for uneven roads, would likely be more stable. The agility of the Jeep is way better though.

In my case, what makes the Harrier a way better choice is the space. Harrier is way better suited to my frame. Both have the knee-console issue, but probably more livable in the Harrier without sacrificing the seat behind mine/driver's.

It also does not come across as a premium product from the engineering aspect. With as few sold, the Compass thread makes the car look rather poor. The NVH was only a bit better than the Harrier, which hardly feels premium. (The Trailhawk didn't fare too well on the chassis-flex test either). Also that there is only one dealer who has dealerships in the whole of Delhi and surroundings, and it's sales make one wonder if the company will last the distance in India.

I'd simply go for the Harrier over this, unless I need a car, like tomorrow, and this is the one that is available.


Mahindra XUV700

I love the engine of this one. It is brilliant, and the only one of the lot which won't make me miss the Detroit Deisel engine in the Optra Magnum.

In a sense, what made me move away from the Hector was the lack of connect and enjoyment factor. While this is better with a more powerful engine, and that it's height to width ratio is a tad better, where is sorely lacks is the sense of connect.

Not sure if ones who have spent most of their driving years in an EPS even relate to that sort of a connect - one which a non powered steering or a good HPS provide. If you really do enjoy driving and like to connect to the car beyond it just being a mechanical device, drive a few thousand in a vehicle without an EPS, and you might look at driving a bit differently. Of course, many will miss the convenience a typical EPS provides, besides it usually being a tad quicker in the centre.

So, this gives a more powerful engine than the Hector, somewhat more stable, harder ride, quicker to respond and way worse second row. Much poorer city ride. Add to that, all the niggles and issues on the XUV700 thread. (Somehow Mahindra gets away with much more than Tata).

Issues with the suspension at city speeds was noticed in the initial TD. Repeated by many owners on the XUV700 thread. Then the football-in-the-boot issue, battery drain issues etc once again make me feel something said in the TD impression: that while the engine is excellent, the rest seems 75% worked out. Heck, I can't even sit stretched and straight in the front passenger seat!

Then there is the question that this is the only one which has an engine over 2000 cc in the list. At one point, laws were considered disfavouring cars with diesel engines over 2000 cc. Considering how diesel is a favoured target, one wonders further at the prudence of a 2000 cc plus engine, when other choices are available.

What is good that the really long TD I had taken in this, the NVH felt surprisingly good, and it was not tiring at all, with sitting and operational ergonomics from the driver's seat rather good (the seat pan etc were issues)

If this came with a good, sorted HPS which gave me a good sense of connect with the car, I think I would have overlooked most things with relative ease.


Scorpio N

While I do like the stance and feeling of being in a car as tall as this, while amidst traffic, from a driving perspective, I think I prefer lower vehicles, and as said in the drive report I believe the XUV700 is better suited to those who will be driving on tarmac.

If I leave the XUV700 out of the fray for some reason, this makes it's way in, as it has an sense of presence which has a positive feeling attached to it, and also that it was particularly silent. I am a bit more sensitive to sounds than the average person. It was quieter than the Harrier and Compass.
.

The Others

Kia Seltos and Hyundai Creta: They have been quite off consideration for reasons shared after the first TDs.

XUV300: I actually found this a well sorted car when I drove the petrol for a bit. Besides the money saving, I don't see it as being chosen over the XUV700 so have not made the effort for a proper TD and one of the diesel. The turbo petrol is enticing due to the extra years of use a petrol gets in Delhi.

XUV400: This is an interesting case, as it takes care of the small-boot issue in the XUV300, but an electric which needs regular connection to the grid is not really on the cards for me. Had this not been an issue, I would certainly have looked at this one, even though I find the copper based styling very odd; very very odd.

Nissan Kicks: Petrol engine didn't work well for me. Also, this car might be on the way out. Had it been with the 2 litre FIAT MJD, I would have seriously looked at it, despite it being suspiciously close to end of life, as I liked it as much; especially the sense of connect.

VW and Skoda cars: Kushaq had issues with the cabin. Even though I love the deep yellow like colour on the Tiagun, haven't checked it. Slavia had headroom issues at the rear, and one should have checked the Virtus, but I haven't. Even though I have flirted with the idea of sedans again as the back has been better, I am afraid of going with this group. The recent Skoda issues thread and the huge number of complaints from owners (not just people bashing up a brand as happens for Tata) was huge and I simply don't feel the comfort for going for this brand unless there is something totally compelling. Is there?

A friend suggested that if negotiated well (and he probably had some contacts) there might be a chance of getting an Octavia cheap @Kosfactor too had suggested that earlier. Considering that it is a petrol, is frugal, has requisite power etc, I did think about it. Spending a bit extra makes sense if it can last 15 years instead of 10. Overall, it too does not make enough sense: Much higher price, lower ingress-egress, expensive repairs, unreliable on the whole, ride probably similar to the Optra (paying as much and not getting much better), and then not having a manual transmission! I do love manual transmissions, especially for cars such as these, where one wants more control as they are made to be driven hard. (will share some more thoughts on MT in a subsequent post)

Hyundai Tucson: Had seriously thought of the older/outgoing one for a bit. In many ways seems my kind of a car. A refined XUV700 with more city-friendly dimensions. But at a much higher price and without an MT, doesn't work for me.

~~~~~~

Have a few more thoughts on upcoming cars, especially about the Nissan Quashqai; also the new Toyota Innova-like Hybrid launched in Indonesia today. I shall add those in a subsequent post.

There has also been a surprise test drive in the meantime, which I shall add later sometime, as it might be pretty long and would need some focused time from my end.

Also, please if you have read this far, please share your thoughts.

[automowheels]

Just the thread I was looking for. Subscribed! Also, is the Alcazar out of contention purely because it's a Creta derivative and you already ditched the Creta?

[shancz]

Originally Posted by Poitive

[*]Things moved to my driving myself for a large part of the car's life - at least in the first half.

That's a good enough timeframe to keep the FTD factor as a top priority. I see this as a positive sign(explained at the end).

Originally Posted by Poitive

[*]With the Covid and other changes in life, one wonders of the prudence of spending over 20L on a car (when one is being able to manage without it for a year) when one is not finding a suitable car at all.

Completely agree with this, doesn't make sense when you can't find what you want.

Originally Posted by Poitive

[*]Despite the above, the choice still is very much to go for the purchase. Just makes it more difficult to plonk the money when one is not satisfied enough.

Don't plonk the money on a compromise is what I would suggest but on the other hand do stretch a bit to get what you want. I don't doubt this since you've already considered and rejected the Octavia and Tucson.

Originally Posted by Poitive

[*]Thankfully, the back has been better, thereby finding my mind wandering towards sedans every so often.

Understandable, I had accompanied a friend to a VW showroom and while the discussions were going on about the Taigun with a fabulous Tiguan standing next to it. I somehow couldn't take my eyes off the blue Virtus parked perpendicular to these cars. Such is the pull of a beautiful sedan.
Honestly, I was talking about the Taigun while gazing at the Virtus's silhouette from a distance

Coming back to today while the sedan has an unmatched sway it is for you to decide how comfortable you would be, how it affects your back issues and will it aggravate the improvements ?


Coming to your present, its relieving that you aren't pressed to compromise, take time to consider your needs, wants and priorities but as usual I will leave with a few thinking out loud suggestions

- If your other car can take over the role of the Optra then why not position it as such and get a new car to fill its previous role ? I don't know what that car is so this point might appear nonsensical, ignore if so.

- My takeaway from Covid is to do/get/ride/drive what you really want without overthinking about how it might pan out 10 years down the line. There's no guarantee what/who will be around 10 years from now.
Like you had said earlier that you're buying much less than what you can afford so why overthink ? What's the worst that can happen ?
In your case ask if the car will keep you happy for the next 5 years and think about the next 5 when you get there. So if a turbo diesel moves you then finalize that as a requirement.
As for NCR rules the worst case I assume is that you have to fall back to the one car for 1 month in a year. You've managed for a year, you sure can manage for a month if needed. Although I hope better sense prevails about such illogical moves next year onwards.

- Not sure if this helps but a friend went from an i10 to the XUV700. I had recommended the City to him but he said that the car was effortless to drive. He said he would buy such a car close to retirement but he wanted to feel the 200bhp with a MT and this was the time to get it. He went for a lower trim due to budget limitations but got his 200 bhp with an MT and that was all he wanted from the car.
Point being finalize what do you want from the car and don't settle on those factors.

On the others :
- Nissan Quashqai etc : will see when it launches, too early to comment or even take them seriously
- HyCross : still retains the "van like" feel which you didn't like about the Innova and its going to be expensive, IMHO.

Will wait for your other TD reports to comment further on specific cars. Hope someone came close.


OT :
Sharing a video not about cars but general thought process behind the decisions or the indecisions we encounter.
I have followed both these gentlemen since they started their careers,.
Admiration and respect along with being in sync at a mental level over motorcycles is what I have to say about them.
Courtesy to Providers:

YouTube : MotorInc

[Kosfactor]

Since I drive many different cars thanks to friends and family, in some cars some things stand out - for better or worse.

Back in 2014 when I accidentally ended up taking a test drive of the 2013 model year Scorpio, I expected it to be rubbish (body roll, terrible ride and what not that I had heard about it) and was completely overwhelmed by how it drove.

So don't worry about the choices you are going to make, a good vehicle will encourage you to go places and do things with it.

As a fast and very demanding driver that I am, I suggest you find out if any XUV AWD AT is there ready stock against cancellations, buy it and go places with it. What an amazing driving machine it is.

[BleueNinja]

Originally Posted by Poitive

The rear brakes being drum aren't good enough to match the overall setup, but newer versions (Jet?) have disc at the rear too.

XZA+ gets disc brake too now & if I am correct maybe XZS gets it too.

Originally Posted by Poitive

Makes this very hard to not buy. I am not worried about Tata's service (more on that on the reply to @shancz's post later sometime).

As they say “Rome wasn’t built in a day”. TATA is working on it but still there is a huge scope of improvement. They do tend to try and avoid identifying an issue and putting in a right approach to resolve instead they prefer coming up with standard responses which makes the owner culpable for issues in the car. These responses range from “Sir aise hi hota hai” to “driving style main dikkat hai” . Luckily I didn’t need to visit them for any issues but this has been the general feedback that I have received from fellow Tata owners.

Originally Posted by Poitive

A friend suggested that if negotiated well (and he probably had some contacts) there might be a chance of getting an Octavia cheap @Kosfactor too had suggested that earlier. Considering that it is a petrol, is frugal, has requisite power etc, I did think about it. Spending a bit extra makes sense if it can last 15 years instead of 10. Overall, it too does not make enough sense.

Also, please if you have read this far, please share your thoughts.

Since, you are considering a pre-owned car, why not take a look at XUV500, preferably 2019 onwards batch. There are good options available in market.

[JKBKS]

Originally Posted by Poitive

Folks, have been rather inactive in on the forum for a while, as the whole topic of getting a new car is getting to me a bit. The below is a bit of a rant...There has also been a surprise test drive in the meantime, which I shall add later sometime, as it might be pretty long and would need some focused time from my end.

Also, please if you have read this far, please share your thoughts.

Buddy we have been on this trip for a while now and exchanged a lot of notes along the way too I guess our requirements have been similar in a sense, with the main difference being you looking for a manual and I for an AT.
In the last year, my requirement and thought process changed too, with changing needs. My kids started driving and a small AT car is the need of the hour to help them hone their skills while navigating Bangalore traffic. So I started looking for a safe and small car and zeroed in on XUV 300 AMT and Nexon AMT given their small size and high safety ratings (Hyundai/Maruti/Kiger/Magnite etc. didn't meet the safety expectation. Honda doesn't have AT). Yet to get Nexon AMT test drive but found XUV 300 AMT to be barely livable. Also test drove Altroz DCA and was amazed by its smoothness. Wish Nexon gets that in upcoming facelift though chances are slim!

So long story short, a small car is what I am looking at now after having booked XUV700 AT last year (cancelled it last month btw when I realized that in my zeal I had booked a diesel AT instead) I will be keeping my Scorpio for another 3-4 years and reassess the situation then.

Coming back to your case, I think you should seriously evaluate XUV 300 (Petrol/Diesel) if you are open to a 5 seater MT. Both are excellent engines. Its safer than XUV 700. Built on Tivoli platform, comes with 7 airbags, wheelbase of 2600mm (Creta has 2610mm btw). It has the power to go anywhere and will be better to manoeuvre on hills as well. Heard some new launches could be announced in Jan.23 Auto Show. So will be a good idea to wait till then as well.