[kpkeerthi]

Polish it off with a rubbing compound or (classic white) toothpaste

[AJ56]

Originally Posted by nikhil.nayak

What doesn't get noticed is how smoothly Mercedes Benz delivers offerings in different segments - ultra high end in this case. The craftsmanship and attention to detail on these machines is just superb.

Beg to differ, there is nothing smooth with how S/Maybachs are delivered to customers. Zero difference compared to how cheaper mercs are handled and stored pre delivery by the dealers (read very poor).

As someone who works on Maybach’s fairly regularly, I can tell you the craftsmanship and paint quality is mediocre at best. Look closely and you’ll find more than one piece of debris, misaligned door trim and in certain cases even uneven panel gaps. This is true for any mass produced car, that’s why they’re so cheap compared to a hand painted Phantom for example.

For reference, see how misaligned the left rear door is on this brand new Maybach GLS 600 (right is normal):





Further, brand new S450, first clip shows a piece of debris in the bonnet, second clips shows dealers poor attempt at machine polishing a small section leaving holograms behind, third clips shows light scuffing possibly during transport-

https://youtube.com/watch?v=VgpHDYep...xkkovK1VRpfHBJ

https://youtube.com/watch?v=jRJo7EhH...ar1vveZmbFMVgp

https://youtube.com/watch?v=EW_Cs5De...x82Zfyt2rFw3nS

[nikhil.nayak]

Originally Posted by AJ56

Beg to differ, there is nothing smooth with how S/Maybachs are delivered to customers. Zero difference compared to how cheaper mercs are handled and stored pre delivery by the dealers (read very poor)

Hmmm ... that is unfortunate. I can only speak for the vehicles that I saw at the Maybach Lounge, at Silver Star Hyderabad. I have to admit I wasn't looking for nor did I notice any flaws on the vehicles on display.

If there are issues with the Maybach as you say then Mercedes Benz India has to address it. What has been the response from MB India to the issues you have seen?

[AJ56]

Originally Posted by nikhil.nayak

I have to admit I wasn't looking for nor did I notice any flaws on the vehicles on display.

If there are issues with the Maybachs as you say then Mercedes Benz India has to address it. What has been the response from MB India to the issues you have seen?

Like you said, most owners don’t notice and don’t complain. MB India (and every other mfg.) will happily keep selling cars until enough people complain and their sales take a hit. Until then no effort will be made to improve their QC or the quality of dealer storage.

I will add that these issues are found in every mass-produced car, it isn’t unique to Mercedes. Porsche and BMW are as bad. When you operate via a franchise model depending on independent business owners (dealerships) to handle and sell your products, this is bound to happen.

Just look at the second shot of the GLS 600 you’ve posted above. Notice the area above the GLS badge, you can see heavy swirling/holograms indicating someone has tried to improperly buff that section with a rotary. Whether it was at the factory or the dealership, it’s poor form either way.

(Also notice how swirled up the piece of piano black trim is on the rear hatch in the second last shot of the same GLS you’ve posted, this is how they deliver cars, and this is also why a detailer has to spend 2-3 days correcting their mess from the factory/showroom before applying paint protection.)

[Turbanator]

Originally Posted by AJ56

I will add that these issues are found in every mass-produced car, it isn’t unique to Mercedes, Porsche and BMW are as bad.....this is also why a detailer has to spend 2-3 days correcting their mess from the factory/showroom before applying paint protection

From my own experience, this is due to a lack of training by the manufacturer. Most of the clothes used by dealerships are pretty basic even new, and the less we say about used, the better. This causes swirl marks. It's not as if any factory will finish the paint with such marks. This has nothing to do with mass-produced or handmade. And in this age, I don't think any cars are hand-painted in the first place. Google tells me that certain models of Rolls-Royce, but I am not sure, as automated paint booths should have better results than men.

Of course, the quality of paint, thickness, shine, etc., will be far superior on the expensive cars, and it does vary from brand to brand.

Paint correction— It's very important, especially in our context. I have been told that cars coming from many premium manufacturers like Ferrari/ Lamborghini need to be corrected before delivery as the finish is not great. And of course, depending on whom you speak, one can go with different types of protection— PPF/ Quartz/UNC, etc.

Regarding Mercedes, the paint quality, especially on CBU models & Maybach, is top-notch. But one can do nothing if someone rubs a bad cloth. BMW has one of the worst paint thicknesses/surface finishes, amongst premium manufacturers; Porsche/ VW are relatively better, but Mercedes has the best.

[AJ56]

Originally Posted by Turbanator

Most of the clothes used by dealerships are pretty basic even new, This causes swirl marks. It's not as if any factory will finish the paint with such marks. This has nothing to do with mass-produced or handmade. And in this age, I don't think any cars are hand-painted in the first place. Google tells me that certain models of Rolls-Royce, but I am not sure, as automated paint booths should have better results than men.

Cloths are the not issue, it’s improper washing. Majority of dealerships are completely clueless on safe washing technique, most don’t even have a foam cannon or high quality wash mitts.

Factory finish can absolutely have all sorts of such issues, from sandpaper scuffs to pinholes to fish eye to excessive orange peel to haze. I can show you well over a 100 pictures from nearly every single mfg to prove this.

It has everything to do with mass produced vs handmade. Hand painted and finished cars take well over a month (a few months normally) and run over a million dollars for pebble beach type projects (just the paint, not talking restoration, that’s extra.)

You cannot achieve perfection when mass producing anything as they just don’t have the time to chase every imperfection/piece of debris stuck in the paint at a factory. Some brands are better than others though. Many cars are still hand painted, they’re just very expensive due to all the effort involved. Automated doesn’t mean it’ll be better quality, it’s done to dramatically reduce cost and improve efficiency at the cost of quality.

Originally Posted by Turbanator

Of course, the quality of paint, thickness, shine, etc., will be far superior on the expensive cars, and it does vary from brand to brand.

No, price has nothing to with spray quality or thickness. A cheap Polo is much better painted than many 2 million dollar hypercars. You’re right about the variance between brands although thickness is largely the same (100-150 microns with exceptions.)

Originally Posted by Turbanator

Regarding Mercedes, the paint quality, especially on CBU models & Maybach, is top-notch. But one can do nothing if someone rubs a bad cloth. BMW has one of the worst paint thicknesses/surface finishes, amongst premium manufacturers; Porsche/ VW are relatively better, but Mercedes has the best.

Not true, merc and BMW are the exact same thickness (95-120 microns on avg.) CBU or otherwise. BMW in fact has less debris in the clearcoat than mercs do on average. Merc is strictly mediocre, doesn’t matter CBU or CKD. I’ve yet to see a well painted merc in nearly a decade of working on them.

VW used to be acceptable before the MQB-IN platform, now it’s terrible. Porsche the less said the better, they’ll put swirls and paint overspray in from the factory, even before the dealer gets his hands on it. Lexus and Volvo are somewhat better although certain newer Volvos have fallen in quality.

Toyota is still quite good, although they mess up on white colours. Honda and Suzuki are as bad/mediocre as merc. Hyundai, Tata and Mahindra (and Jeep) are the worst in the industry, it’s like getting paint done at a budget body shop with the last group.

Brand new 911, owner took delivery straight off the truck, dealer didn’t even touch it and yet you see swirls, green paint overspray on the sunroof and rear engine cover, and in general terrible quality-

[Turbanator]

Originally Posted by AJ56

Cloths are the not issue, it’s improper washing.

Do you mean that if the car is washed incorrectly and no clothes are used to dry, swirl marks will still come?

Factory finish can absolutely have all sorts of such issues, from sandpaper scuffs to pinholes to fish eye to excessive orange peel to haze.

Yes, I have heard about orange peel but why will it have sandpaper scuffs? Definitely, something that happens during transportation or after production when the cars are stored mostly in open.

It has everything to do with mass produced vs handmade.

For all practical purposes, there is nothing like Handmade Car

A cheap Polo is much better painted than many 2 million dollar hypercars.

Yes, it's quite possible but chances are Polo uses the same Paint booth as an Audi A8. So, I will consider VW/ Audi/ Skoda as similar as far as paint quality is concerned.

Mercedes is strictly mediocre, doesn’t matter CBU or CKD. I’ve yet to see a well-painted Mercedes in nearly a decade of working on them

I will stick with my opinion, based on my ownership across different mentioned brands. Paint on a G Wagon is vastly superior to an X7 or i7. But you have a different eye/ level of details so I will respect your views.

Porsche the less said the better, they’ll put swirls and paint overspray in from the factory, even before the dealer gets his hands on it. Brand new 911, owner took delivery straight off the truck, dealer didn’t even touch it and yet you see swirls, green paint overspray on the sunroof and rear engine cover, and in general terrible quality-

I don't know about your customer, but this is how the Porsche comes from the factory. Consider the time it spends on Port/ Ship and all the weather - rain/ dust storms etc. Cars that come in containers will surely be better protected.

[AJ56]

Originally Posted by Turbanator

Do you mean that if the car is washed incorrectly and no clothes are used to dry, swirl marks will still come?

Yes, I have heard about orange peel but why will it have sandpaper scuffs? Definitely, something that happens during transportation or after production when the cars are stored mostly in open.

Yes, it's quite possible but chances are Polo uses the same Paint booth as an Audi A8. So, I will consider VW/ Audi/ Skoda as similar as far as paint quality is concerned.

I don't know about your customer, but this is how the Porsche comes from the factory. Consider the time it spends on Port/ Ship and all the weather - rain/ dust storms etc. Cars that come in containers will surely be better protected.

To answer briefly:

1) The cloths have no business touching the paint during a wash, as they should be pressure washed followed by foaming on shampoo, mitts for the contact step and a leaf blower to dry. Cloths for glass and interior at the max.

Also, it’s very easy to ruin paint without any cloth, after foaming, just use one wash mitt and drag it all over the body without flipping. You’ll have swirls even before you finish the final rinse.

2) Yes there is a lot of damage done in the open stockyards, but I’m not referring to that. I’m talking about improper finishing at the factory, of which there is plenty of evidence on nearly every mass produced new car, irrespective of mfg.

This includes sandpaper scuffs, fine scratches generally nothing major but present on a good 25-30% of new cars. In most cases you won’t spot these easily unless you’re going over the paint with a sharp eye and a bright light.

3) I’ve not checked but I don’t think A8 and Polo share the same assembly line, irrespective, there are major differences between VW, Skoda and Audi models. There are significant differences inside Audi itself, just see the paint on a Q3 vs A6, the former is painted much worse with heavy distortion and orange peel vs a better finish on the A6.

4) Yes that’s how we got it as well, on a flatbed. He didn’t even want to drive it before we coated it. But look at the pictures above, none of that happened during transport as rain and dust won’t cover a car in matching paint overspray and scratches. It was all at the factory. These are well known quality issues with Porsche’s, it’s never perfect out of the plant.

You’ll be surprised to learn as I was, when you peel the white protective film, the piano black plastic already has fine swirls and a haze from the factory itself. We think the car hasn’t been touched out of a factory, whereas in reality, it has had a lot of workers and inspectors handle it and many don’t take perfect care to not inflict minor damage on the paint. Modern water-based paint is so soft, that just barely dragging your finger across or wiping with a soft face tissue is enough to leave light scratches behind.

Originally Posted by troika

Need suggestions as to how I could remove a black permanent marker mark

Clean the area with diluted car shampoo and apply a few drops of tar and glue remover (Carpro TRIX) with a fresh towel. Wipe gently until it’s gone, use diluted shampoo again to neutralise the glue remover.

Originally Posted by kpkeerthi

Polish it off with a rubbing compound or (classic white) toothpaste

Please don’t use toothpaste anywhere on paint as it’s full of heavy abrasives that will damage your clearcoat. If you must use abrasives, use purpose-made ones intended for use on clearcoat (Menzerna 3000 is a good fine-cut polish for eg). Avoid using a compound as that will require a secondary step with a fine-cut polish to remove the haze.

[anra]

How good is Gyeon Q²M Clay? 100 g, mid strength, Rs. 1,605 on Greenz Car Care. Is Greenz a reliable and correctly priced seller?

Any other clay, which is good enough and not expensive? Budget is tight.

Generally, for eg., in Car Pro, there are 3 grades of clay; fine, mid and hard? What are uses? For general and invisible bonded contaminants, mid should be OK?

Have used Elastofoam decon block in the past. Works well. But, difficult in certain curves and tight spots, i.e., the block needs a largish area for free movement, to be effective.

Have tried some low cost clays from Amazon, after carefully reading reviews and keeping my fingers crossed. Not satisfied with results, despite the bar sliding absolutely smoothly. I notice some change in the paint shade in certain areas, at certain angles. There is nil paint deposit on the bar. Paint shade is light metallic grey: Honda City, 2006. With the plastic baggie test, removed 95% bonded contaminants, after 2 to 3 times of use, i.e., not 2 to 3 passes. I will now use the cheap clay on glass, to finish it. Any other uses?

I make an about 3 mm thick patty, use it over ½ bonnet area, 2 to 3 times. I then use the other side for the other bonnet ½ half. Then, I keep it aside for glass usage. Somehow, I am not convinced that kneading the clay is a good idea at all.

Please advice and correct me, as needed. Thanks to all.

[AJ56]

Originally Posted by anra

How good is Gyeon Q²M Clay? 100 g, mid strength, Rs. 1,605 on Greenz Car Care. Is Greenz a reliable and correctly priced seller?

Any other clay, which is good enough and not expensive? Budget is tight.

Gyeon is top tier quality wise and their clay is good, GreenZ is a reliable seller, their pricing is fine.

Yes, get the Northwolf blue clay, it’s a fine grade and will work on most light to moderate contamination. It’s 300 for 100g and works just as well. Also, you don't needed dedicated clay lube, use diluted car shampoo (dilute with RO/distilled water) in a spray bottle for lubrication.

Originally Posted by anra

Generally, for eg., in Car Pro, there are 3 grades of clay; fine, mid and hard? What are uses? For general and invisible bonded contaminants, mid should be OK?

Not satisfied with results, despite the bar sliding absolutely smoothly. I notice some change in the paint shade in certain areas, at certain angles. There is nil paint deposit on the bar. I will now use the cheap clay on glass, to finish it. Any other uses?

As the names suggest, you’re increasing the clays aggressiveness towards bonded contamination on paint. As you get into coarser clay, your ability to deep clean the paint increases, but you also inflict more collateral damage in the clearcoat in the form of scratches and abrasion.

It’s like going down numbers in sandpaper, a 1500 grit will correct deeper scratches than a 3000 grit but it will also result in more abrasion. On newer cars, don’t exceed medium strength, heavy clay will require a heavy cut compound followed by a finishing polish to remove all the scratches it will put in. Start with mild, if you don’t get the results then go upto medium strength.

With light to medium clay generally you won’t need a compound, as scratches can be corrected with a fine cut polish and soft to medium pad. You must polish after any clay bar though, as they are all abrasive at the end of the day.

Please stay away from the cheap Amazon clay, it has very uneven grit size and can leave deep gashes in the paint, it is also not very effective at removing bonded contaminants in many cases.
Paint shade doesn’t change as it has clearcoat over it, what you’re seeing is the dulling of the transparent clear as the clay has inflicted scratches over it. Polishing will restore gloss and clarity.

There is always paint deposit on the clay bar, we just don’t see as it’s the transparent part of the paint system (clearcoat). Please throw the cheap clay away, I wouldn’t use it even on glass as it can scratch very badly (on glass you can’t even polish to correct scratches.)

Originally Posted by anra

I make an about 3 mm thick patty, use it over ½ bonnet area, 2 to 3 times. I then use the other side for the other bonnet ½ half. Then, I keep it aside for glass usage. Somehow, I am not convinced that kneading the clay is a good idea at all.

Please advice and correct me, as needed. Thanks to all.

3mm is way too thin, you want over double that thickness at the very least. Reason being, when we clay, if it’s a very thin piece, our fingers will create pressure points on the paint (the same reason an interface pad is used during sanding). We want uniform pressure over the paint, without concentrating it in one or two areas.

Keep flipping the clay every 1-2 square feet, you must fold it in to have a fresh side for new sections, not doing this will result in paint marring and scratches as you’re grinding the removed debris back into the paint.

Use light pressure and spray the diluted car shampoo very liberally, most folks don’t saturate the paint enough, your clay should be able to glide over the paint without digging into it.

Will add that there are other ways to physically decontaminate paint, you can use clay mitts, clay towels and clay blocks. Although personally I still prefer the clay bar.

[DrivingNirvana]

Hello fellow BHPians,
I am a newbie in terms of the car detailing skill and have no prior experience. I recently purchased a kinetic yellow Jimny Alpha AT. My car is parked on the road under open sky all the time as I don't have the luxury of a covered garage. I cover my car with a TPH car cover when the car is not used for more than one day. Also, I am working in a thermal power plant, so the atmosphere here is always full of fine dust particles.

With this background, I would request all you experts to suggest me a cleaning routine which I should follow to keep the car in top shape.

Also, I would request you to help me in deciding the best quality shampoo, wash mitt, microfiber cloth, clay lube and clay bar, liquid hybrid wax/ceramic spray and waterless wash solution. I want to go for absolute best quantity without any budget constraint. I have already ordered a cordless pressure washer and cordless leaf blower.

Thanks and Regards

Saubhik

[anra]

Dear AJ56 ji,

I can't thank you enough for your prompt and detailed advices.

2 queries;

Northwolf blue clay, it’s a fine grade and will work on most light to moderate contamination. It’s 300 for 100g

You meant Rs. 300? Who's the reliable online seller?

Keep flipping the clay every 1-2 square feet, you must fold it in to have a fresh side for new sections, not doing this will result in paint marring and scratches as you’re grinding the removed debris back into the paint.

'Flipping' = the other side? '... fold it in..' not clear,. You mean, after using the second flat side, a ball should be made randomly and then a patty? But, would'nt the contaminants would all get mixed up and cause damage?

From a senior citizen;
भगवान की कृपा आप और आपके प्रिय जनों पे सदैव रहे |

[AJ56]

Originally Posted by anra

I can't thank you enough for your prompt and detailed advices.

2 queries;

You meant Rs. 300? Who's the reliable online seller?

'Flipping' = the other side? '... fold it in..' not clear,. You mean, after using the second flat side, a ball should be made randomly and then a patty? But, would'nt the contaminants would all get mixed up and cause damage?

Thank you for the kind words.

Yes 300 bucks for 100g, Plantcarcare is reliable seller for anything detailing related.
https://www.planetcarcare.com/produc...8G1EY8z8Ig1q8J

Not a ball, you fold it in on itself after using both sides, this ensures fresh material is touching the paint at all times.

Reason being, you’re putting the contaminants inside the clay and yes after some time when you start seeing the contaminants on the surface even after folding, you change your clay bar.

For avg cars with light contamination you can do 3-4 cars before your bar has to be changed, for heavy contamination you can use the entire bar in one car, depends really.

Originally Posted by DrivingNirvana

Hello fellow BHPians,

With this background, I would request all you experts to suggest me a cleaning routine which I should follow to keep the car in top shape.

Also, I would request you to help me in deciding the best quality shampoo, wash mitt, microfiber cloth, clay lube and clay bar, liquid hybrid wax/ceramic spray and waterless wash solution. I want to go for absolute best quantity without any budget constraint. I have already ordered a cordless pressure washer and cordless leaf blower.

Put a good spray coating on it like Gyeon Cancoat and use water + air to rinse off loose dust everyday. You can use just air as an air duster in between the rinses.

Don’t use the cover, it’ll scuff up the paint in short order. Also don’t do waterless washing, dust is very abrasive and spraying and wiping will ensure swirls in just a few attempts.

Foam shampoo- Koch Chemie GSF

Wash mitt: https://www.googleadservices.com/pag...ECAcQEQ&adurl=

Microfibres: Best money can buy is the eagle edgeless 500 by the rag company, difficult to source though. Otherwise- https://www.planetcarcare.com/produc...550gsm-40x40cm

Clay lube: use GSF diluted with RO water

Claybar: Carpro Mild/Medium

Spray sealant: Gyeon Cancoat

Tyre and trim dressing: Carpro PERL (water based)

[DrivingNirvana]

Originally Posted by AJ56

Claybar: Carpro Mild/Medium

Thank you so much for the recommendation. I will order these as soon as possible. Can I use clay towels instead of clay bars?

Regards
Saubhik

[AJ56]

Originally Posted by DrivingNirvana

Thank you so much for the recommendation. I will order these as soon as possible. Can I use clay towels instead of clay bars?

Anytime.

Yes you can, but I prefer clay bars as they’re quicker and more effective. Either way, it’s an abrasive and it will lightly swirl the paint, requiring a finishing polish to correct. If you’re not comfortable with machine polishing, take it to a detailer you trust.