[hell_rider]

ok..i found this link that says that the petrol injectors are turned off when the engine is running on LPG.

Shell Gas Link

Also, any idea if the LPG kits available in India now are of the "advanced" kind mentioned in above link ? i.e. where the gas is fed to the engine in liquid form.

will appreciate inputs from people who have performed these conversions.

[raajks]

That was good information to about depletion in the octance levels if the petrol stays in the fuel tank.

So guys who fill a full tank, thinking that they can forget it for a month or a few weeks are compromising on the fuel's octance level (if high octance fuel is used instead of the normal ones) thereby affecting the engine's performance.

One point that i would like to make is LPG being a cleaner fuel than petrol would be soft on your exhaust and carbon sediments would be lesser than that of LPG

[arun_112]

As Maruti Alto is MPFI engine, LPG is most suited to this machine.

Good things about LPG:
1) Clean fuel, it cannot be adulterated like petrol.
2) Creates less pollution.
3) Running costs is about 40% lower than petrol.
4) Does not heat up the engine like CNG.
5) Does not show major power loss as in CNG.
6) LPG tank is smaller than CNG tank for same capacity, because it is liquid.
7) LPG tank is much stronger than petrol tank, hence, safer.
8) No vibrations, as compared to diesel.


When you decide about converting your car to LPG following things come to your mind:
1) Cost of running.
2) Loss of boot space in dicky.
3) Convenience
4) Safety
5) How much abuse the car will have to bear by drilling and hammering

ANSWERS: Low running cost, 50% loss of boot space, very convenient as no alterations done to your original petrol settings, only extra parts are added. Safer than petrol, Your car body will be drilled to screw the parts. The car body will be cut by circular cutter to fit the inlet of LPG on the rear side. The dickey's raised floor portion where the stepney is placed will be hammered to flatten it to accommodate the toroidal tank. The ignition switch will be opened to add some more connections with a safety fuse.

Some advice for Maruti Alto / 800 car users:

1) Cost of running on LPG is about 40% lower than petrol.

2) To save space, the best option is to go for 35 Litre toroidal tank. This is of the same size as the stepney of the car and fits in the space provided for stepney. In this way you don't lose in the dickey space.

3) The best and most popular model is STAKO toroidal tank manufactured in Poland. This tank costs about Rs. 4000 more than cylindrical tank. Indian ''Econ'' tank of 35 litres capacity is also being used. It costs Rs. 3000 more than cylindrical tank. This tank is manufactured in Visakhapatnam and is approved by the Chief Controller of Explosives, Nagpur.

4) Now, you will have to keep the stepney in an inclined position on the left side of dickey. When you go for shopping to nearby places, you can take a little risk and leave behind the stepney in order to use the full dickey space.

5) There are two types of kits: one that requires manual switching to LPG from petrol after ignition (generally for carborater cars), other that does this job automatically (for MPFI cars).

6) So, be aware of this, automatic version costs Rs. 2,000 more. In this version you have option to switch to a)always on petrol, b) always on gas and c) starting on petrol and switching to gas on acceleration.

7) The total cost of automatic system with toroidal tank will cost Rs. 24,000. (Cost of imported toroidal tank is Rs. 4000 while indian toroidal tank is Rs. 3000 more than cylindrical tank).

8) <b>If using ordinary cylindrical tank (larger capacity) with manual system, including RTO formalities), the cost will be about 20,000.</b>

9) During installation, be ready to get your car's body to be drilled at a few places to fix the vapouriser, solenoids, etc. To fit the toroidal tank, the dickey base has to be flattened by hammering (sometimes with little damage). Prefer to have the filling inlet for gas on the right hand side opposite to the petrol inlet. You can have it inside the dickey also (t avoid geting the car body drilled), but only if you agree to open the dickey every time you need to fill the tank.

10) There are many varieties and makes of the kits available in India. Popular names are LOVATO, BRC, LONGAS, LANDIRENZO, TARTARINI, etc. These are all Italian kits. LOVATO and BRC is expensive as it has all imported parts. But the others have only the multi valve, and vapouriser made in Italy, and rest of the parts like copper pipes, change over switch, solenoids, etc are Indian. Yes, if toroidal tank is being used, only imported version ''Stako'' is now rarely available in India, the indian version is ''Econ'' which is very common. Normal cylindrical tanks are all of Indian make, generally Econ, having larger capacities of 40 litres and 60 litres is preferred ny many people who have big cars.

11) The process of installation is as follows: First you have to take permission from the RTO on Form BTI to install the LPG kit , (then again get clearance within 14 days of approval for using the kit after installation). The fee is only Rs. 50 but the LPG fitters charge somewhere Rs. 1500 to 2000 if they get this clearance through RTO agents. After getting this permission, you can go ahead with fitting the kit. (You can do the simple RTO formality yourself and save another Rs. 2000)

12) It takes about 6 to 8 hrs. for fitting the kit. After fitting the kit, it is advisable to fill the gas to full tank and check the indicators. You have to take RTO permission within 14 days after approval. RTO will write details and stamp your original RC book. Now, you are fully authorised to use this kit. hence, minimum it takes 2-3 days for the whole process.


Running costs:

Milage on petrol worth Rs. 500:
Assuming that you fill petrol for Rs. 500 (@Rs. 48.30 paise as on 27-9-05 in Mumbai) you will get 10.35 litres of petrol. At the milage of 17 Kms/lit your Alto/800 would run 176 Kms.

Milage on LPG worth Rs. 500:
Now, if you fill LPG for Rs. 500 (Rs. 24.50/Lit) you will get 20.40 Litres of LPG. At a milage of 15 Kms/Lit your Alto/800 would run 306 Kms.

How much extra milage you will get on LPG worth Rs. 500?
On every Rs. 500 you get 130 Kms extra (on LPG as compared to petrol)

How much petrol will you save on every Rs. 500 on gas?
Well, in order to run this 130 Kms extra you would have required 7.64 lit of petrol costing Rs. 369.
In short, on every Rs. 500 consumed on LPG (instead of petrol), you will save Rs. 369 worth of petrol.

So, go ahead and enjoy your trip on LPG. But remember, when your kit is being installed, don't move away from your car, as lot of supervision will be required to see that the work is done neatly. Don't rely on the mechanic, sometimes they are in great hurry to finish the job. One more thing, pay only after the job is done. Take proper bill. Inform them beforehand that you will require a pukka bill, else the installer will put 12% more as taxes if you ask for the bill after the job is done.

Complaint against defective product and services.
Visit www.icrpc.org for free help if you have a complaint against any defective product or service, including faulty LPG equipment, or defective fitting.

[cnu]

Thats really some good piece of information Arun. Can you also provide the source of this information ?

[vandan]

hey,arun great help,i am also thinking of getting a second hand alto fitted with an LPG kit.Do you know anyone who can do the work with all legal formalities in Bombay¿

[rdkarthik]

Originally Posted by Psycho

As for the MPFI car's please remember the ECU continues pulsing the Injectors without any fuel being supplied to them and yes this could damage the injectors.

I remember seeing a relay unit that kills the injector circuit when not in use. Made by lovato. Till now i was of the opinion every gas-converted mpfi car had this unit on.

[subbarao]

Hi, can anyone post how the LPG kit works on MPFI's, or any link's on this..........

[prakash2757]

Thank U so much for giving Information.. Really awesome..

[finetuning]

[quote=arun_112]As Maruti Alto is MPFI engine, LPG is most suited to this machine.

Good things about LPG:
1) Clean fuel, it cannot be adulterated like petrol.
2) Creates less pollution.
3) Running costs is about 40% lower than petrol.

Excllent explanation...I think LPG is the fuel of future.....as not only its green but its by product of petrol...diesel and kerosene........I too using LPG fuel since 2 years....absolutly no problem...we need to have correct tuning in LPG setup in older vehicle with carburetor......

Enjoy......

[wolfinstein]

Does not heat up the engine like CNG.- Really ...? If LPG was much cooler in operating Temps..The indian goverment would have not promoted CNG more than LPG...! All buses/Auto's/Taxi's run all day in Delhi Heat and Never heard any of this...! Confirm your Source..

5) Does not show major power loss as in CNG - I wonder why as CNG has more octane value, higher calorific value than LPG

LPG is 8-10 rs more expensive than CNG...!

Here is an external Comparsion ( Although in US Context)
http://www.cleanenergyfuels.com/Quickfacts.html


LPG

[COLOR=#003366]LPG (Propane)
[/COLOR]Liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) consists mainly of propane, propylene, butane, and butylene in various mixtures. However, in the United States, the mixture is mainly propane. It is produced as a by-product of natural gas processing and petroleum refining. The components of LPG are gases at normal temperatures and pressures. However, they become liquid under moderate pressure. Therefore, LPG is stored on vehicles as a liquid in pressurized tanks.

Advantages:

Environmental: Propane vehicles produce less of virtually all tailpipe pollutants than comparable gasoline or diesel vehicles.
Energy Security: Most propane used in the U.S. today is domestically produced.
Operating Cost: Propane costs less per gallon than gasoline and diesel fuel.
Fueling: A national infrastructure of pipelines, processing facilities, and storage already exists for the efficient distribution of propane.

Disadvantages:

Energy Security: Propane production in the U.S. is limited. If the demand for propane were to increase significantly, the additional propane would have to be imported.
Operating Cost: Propane costs vary considerable throughout the year – usually peaking in the winter when demand for residential heating is greatest. Unless a user enters into an annual contract with a propane provider, this severely complicates fuel cost budgeting.
Vehicle Cost: Primarily because of the cost of on-board storage tanks, the cost of propane vehicles is greater than for comparable gasoline and diesel vehicles.
Driving Range: Because there is less energy in a gallon of propane than in a gallon of gasoline or diesel, the driving range of vehicles operating on propane is less.
Fueling: Compared to gasoline and diesel fuel, the number of propane fueling stations is limited.
Vehicle Availability: Only a couple of propane vehicles are still being manufactured by OEMs. Most propane vehicles produced today are aftermarket conversions.

CNG
[COLOR=#003366]Natural Gas (Compressed or Liquefied)
[/COLOR]Natural gas consists mostly of methane and is drawn from gas wells or in conjunction with crude oil production. Compressed natural gas (CNG) vehicles store natural gas in high-pressure fuel cylinders at 3,000 to 3,600 pounds per square inch. Since natural gas is colorless, odorless and tasteless, an odorant is normally added to CNG for safety reasons. Liquefied natural gas (LNG) vehicles store natural gas as a cryogenic liquid.

Advantages:

Environmental: CNG vehicles produce far less of all regulated pollutants that compar-able gasoline or diesel vehicles, including NOx and particulate matter. In addition, CNG vehicles produce far less unregulated air toxics and greenhouse gases.
Energy Security: Natural gas is primarily a domestic/North American fuel, 85 percent of which is produced in the U.S., with virtually all the rest produced in Canada.
Operating Cost: Natural gas is cheaper "at the pump" than gasoline and diesel fuel. Prices vary around the country.
Vehicle Availability: There are over 50 natural gas vehicle models available for light-, medium- and heavy-duty applications. This is more than for any alternative fuel.
Distribution Efficiency/Safety: America has a natural gas transmission and distri-bution network of over 1.5 million miles bringing natural gas to every major city in the country. This is the safest and most efficient energy distribution system.
Flexibility: CNG vehicles can be (and are being) produced as dedicated and bi-fuel versions. Dedicated vehicles are most appropriate where vehicles tend to operate in an area where natural gas fueling is available. Bi-fuel vehicles have both natural gas and gasoline storage tanks on board, and can operate on either fuel at the flip of a switch. Bi-fuel vehicles are most appropriate where the driver may need to travel to areas not currently served by natural gas stations.
Home Refueling: The majority of homes in the U.S. are connected to the natural gas transmission and distribution system. Through the use of a "home refueling appliance," homeowners can refuel their CNG vehicles at home.
Transition to Hydrogen: Since hydrogen is a gas, hydrogen-powered vehicles will require changes in a number of areas, including building codes and standards, mechanic/ inspector/user training. NGVs require many of the same changes. Therefore, a growing NGV market today is smoothing the path for a hydrogen vehicle market tomorrow.

Disadvantages:

Fueling: There are only 1,600 natural gas fueling stations in the U.S. (compared to 190,000 gasoline stations). In addition, each station costs significantly more than for a comparable gasoline/diesel dispenser and storage tank system.
Vehicle Cost: Primarily because of (1) low production volumes and (2) the greater cost of fuel storage tanks, NGVs cost more than comparable gasoline or diesel models.
Driving Range: Compared to a volumetric gallon of gasoline or diesel fuel, there is less energy in an energy gallon equivalent of natural gas (both CNG and LNG). Therefore, the driving range of vehicles operating on natural gas is less.
Other: On-board natural gas fuel tanks are larger than comparable gasoline or diesel fuel tanks. Therefore, in some vehicles, some cargo or truck space is lost.

[Jeepfreak]

Hi there ,
Well ive got a mahindra Jeep fitted with a Gypsy king engine , ive had it converted to LPG in 2003 . till date ive never had any issues with the kit or my engine. Once the cylinder gets over i drive it on petrol for about 20 - 25 kms so that the valves dont dry up. Its only the initial pep where you can make out the difference, rest everything is the same top speed , performance and belive me guys it save a lot of mullah.

Cheers,
Jeepfreak

[harifire]

I have seen postings from people who advise against converting Fiat cars to LPG - . I have a Petra 1.6 EL and I am plannign to convert it to LPG - Any advise on this matter is appreciated . Also if some one can reccomend a good place in bangalore to get it done - that would be great !!
thanks - harish

[ranjithbalan]

I have a Opel Corsa 1.4 fitted with LPG back in early 2004 since my mileage in Petrol was very low. I am very happy after the LPG conversion as the engine became very smooth, no drop in performance, nice mileage (city, bangalore-8 and highway-13.5 without AC) and the only problem i face is that i cannot go for a K&N filter as nobody recommends it. LPG is BRC and i feel i am extremely delighted with the car and LPG now.

[mail4ajo]

Originally Posted by Psycho

Well you are asked to start your car on petrol and then move on to LPG. As for the MPFI car's please remember the ECU continues pulsing the Injectors without any fuel being supplied to them and yes this could damage the injectors.

Psycho, isn't there a device called Emulator that cuts signals to the injectors? I have it on my car and well everyone should have it on their MPFI LPG converted cars.

[esteem_lover]

Originally Posted by arun_112

9) During installation, be ready to get your car's body to be drilled at a few places to fix the vapouriser, solenoids, etc. To fit the toroidal tank, the dickey base has to be flattened by hammering (sometimes with little damage). Prefer to have the filling inlet for gas on the right hand side opposite to the petrol inlet. You can have it inside the dickey also (t avoid geting the car body drilled), but only if you agree to open the dickey every time you need to fill the tank.

I have fitted the inlet alongside my petrol inlet within the cap itself, so it is not visible, at the same time, i have to just operate the release lever as i do for petrol.
cheers