[Rtech]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]If you can afford it, go for tubeless with alloy wheels any day. This is the best combination.

I think that one line sums it up perfectly!

Rt

[X-Machine]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Rehaan @ Sep. 10 2004,00:14)]Hey Xmachine,

could you please be more specific as to what part the steel rims and tubeless tires had to play in this scenario?

cya
R

It happened such,that my car absolutely skidded while gettin on the Sion flyover towards Imax.The car crashed into the wall firstly,and then slided beneath a truck which was a little ahead.The huge iron bar on the rear of the truck was like cms from my face.Terrible.And all this at 4am.hehe.
When i towed the car to Sai service,lower parel,these guys surveyed the complete car and pointed out to the left rear steel rim which could be one of the reasons of the crash.It was rusted a little and bend too.Now i dunnno whether this happened b4 or after the accident.But IMO it happened b4 the accident,cos the impact was not so bad that it could bend the rear steel rim....
I hope this is clear????

[esteem_lover]

Originally Posted by Rehaan

Hey RJK,

In order of increasing safety it would go like this (IMO)
1-Steel wheel, tubed tyre
2-Alloy wheel, tubed tyre
3-Steel wheel, tubeless tyre
4-Alloy wheel, tubeless tyre

So the only differences between an alloy wheel and a steel wheel when it comes to havng a tubeless tire on it are-
1. Steel is more likely to rust & corrode (compared to alloys), hence the seal between the rim and tire-bead becomes a little worse over time, and hence air tends to leak over LONG periods of time (days). To help counter this you could get the inside of your steel wheels painted with an anti rust/corrosion treatment. That should help delay the rust etc.
2. Steel wheels are more likely to dent at the rims over huge potholes/bumps. Hence the seal between rim and tyre will be lost if your wheel takes any huge blows (ie if your driving like a maniac over bad roads). This can always be hammered back into shape, or you could just buy a new steel rim.
3. Im not sure about this one.....but maybe alloys wheels rim profile (flange profile?) is more suited to tubeles tires for some reason ??

Anyway, to answer ur question.
Tubeless on steel wheels =better than tubed tires on steel wheels. (especially if your car is gonna be doing any prolonged hi-speed travelling)

cya
R

absolutely right rehaan
never heard a more sensible analysis about steel rims, alloys, tube tyres & tubeless tyres... i thinhk u hit the nail on its head... u didn't miss there...i agree with u totally

cheers

[Buffetfan]

Go ahead without a doubt in your mind.... almost evey car in the developed countries has tubeless tyres but not even 20% have alloy wheels... so thats the observation I have..
From practical experience...
I had a fiat uno with 155/80 R 13 tubeless Michelin tyres (OK...gurus...wrong upsize compared to the OEM 145/80R13but thats not the point...I was dying to do something to get the ground clearance up!!!) and did 26000 kms on those tyres... 3 of the rims I had were hammered back in shape because of hitting potholes at high speeds... and they still retained air pretty decently. so so long as it is not a major impact...and you use a decent guy who reparis rims (and not use the big hammer of the puncturewallah) you would be Ok
I also have tubeless tyres on a Baleno (185/65 R 14 goodyear Eagle NCT5 ......alloys here though... mostly for looks sake and not for the imaginary weight reduction and ride comfort as the theoriticians would have you believe) and a Santro that I bought last month...on regular pressed steel disc rims...(165/65 R 13 Goodyear Eagle GA+)..no problem at all!!!
For those who want you to put alloys ONLY for tubeless tyres...just ask one question...why is it that Maruti Swift/Skoda Octavia/New Honda City/Chevy Optra/Chevy Aveo/Ford Fiesta come with tubeless tyres on stock pressed steel dics rims!!!! and so do nearly 80% of cars around the world that run ton tubeless tyres!!!
Also..the alloy would generally CRACK after a bad impact and the steel rim would lose shape (use the avoidable big hammer with the roadside tyrewallah in case of emergency)...it is easy to see which is easier to mount the tyre back onto

[Buffetfan]

Originally Posted by X-Machine

It happened such,that my car absolutely skidded while gettin on the Sion flyover towards Imax.The car crashed into the wall firstly,and then slided beneath a truck which was a little ahead.The huge iron bar on the rear of the truck was like cms from my face.Terrible.And all this at 4am.hehe.
When i towed the car to Sai service,lower parel,these guys surveyed the complete car and pointed out to the left rear steel rim which could be one of the reasons of the crash.It was rusted a little and bend too.Now i dunnno whether this happened b4 or after the accident.But IMO it happened b4 the accident,cos the impact was not so bad that it could bend the rear steel rim....
I hope this is clear????

My fiat Uno's steel rim got bent after a collission from a Hero Puch ..no collision is small enuf for the rims

[sivadas]

Chances of steel rims getting bent is more probable compared to alloy ones. It happened with my friend's esteem because of a huge pothole (obviously the tubeless tyre could not hold on to air) and now he is changing to Alloys.

[rks]

Originally Posted by Rehaan

Hey RJK,

In order of increasing safety it would go like this (IMO)
1-Steel wheel, tubed tyre
2-Alloy wheel, tubed tyre
3-Steel wheel, tubeless tyre
4-Alloy wheel, tubeless tyre

[...]

Anyway, to answer ur question.
Tubeless on steel wheels =better than tubed tires on steel wheels. (especially if your car is gonna be doing any prolonged hi-speed travelling)

Boy, am I confused. I am not sure I agree with the order you have given and with your last statement. I think if the car came with stock steel rims and tubed tyres, I would modify the above list (in order of increasing safety), for Indian roads, as:

(1) steel wheel, tubeless tyre
(2) alloy wheel, tubed tyre
(3) steel wheel, tubed tyre
(4) alloy wheel, tubeless tyre

I think switching to tubeless with company-fitted steel rims (which obviously have been researched and optimized for tubed tyres) is just too risky for Indian roads, as the present thread itself suggests. I have also found recently that one of my (steel) rims is slightly bent at the fringes -- don't know when it happened. Since stock steel rims are well-researched by the company for tubed tyres, it would make more sense to stick with them than switching to alloys if you are not going for a tyre upgrade.

See the following thread for justification of my stand:

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/tyre-a...an-alloys.html

Tyre change is now almost due for my Santro, after another 5000 kms. I do a lot of high-speed driving every week on the Mumbai-Pune Expressway (see my avatar). After reading all T-BHP threads and also getting advice from T-BHPians, I am still not sure what I should do, but I think I have narrowed it to two choices:

(a) Alloy wheels (Aura, which comes with guarantee) + tubeless tyre upgrade (165/65 R 13).

(b) Stock steel rims + stock tubed tyres (155/70 R 13).

Regarding (a), which is the costlier option, I have lost confidence after reading the above-cited thread, which seems to suggest that stock steel rims are preferrable to aftermarket alloys (for small cars like Santro at least), basically because aftermarket alloys may not be well researched for this particular vehicle and may result in vibrations at high speeds. So I am also considering playing it safe and going with (b). But this is not very exciting, so my heart is still with (a).

Has anybody in this forum experienced vibrations or any other problems on the Santro (old model or Xing) at top speed after switching to Aura alloys? I mean when you floor the pedal and are at 140 - 160 kmph. Also what is the life of alloy wheels as compared to steel, for Indian road conditions and with a lot of highway driving (about 50 %)?

[rks]

Let me add one clarification to my previous post. I think I would agree with Rehaan if the choice of alloy/steel wheels or tubed/tubeless tyres were to be made by experts and if the roads were good. But in India, it would be much safer to stick with company-fitted steel rims for tubed tyres rather than switching to aftermarket alloys and risk getting a poor fit. But if one would like to upgrade and go for tubeless, then alloy wheels are the recommended option -- but one has to make sure that the fitting is done by experienced people who know what they are doing. You just cannot take a chance as far as your tyres/wheels are concerned.

[Buffetfan]

I wonder that world over the cars are designed for tubeless tyres...obvously since we get a stripped down version of these models in india, the rims that they have would be designed to hold tubeless tyres too....
there are very few rim designs in the world that are specifically designed for holding tube type tyres only (spoked rims ala the bicycle is one example).... dont know of any that are in the indian market
Tubeless tyres are MUCH SAFER as they dont blast on the highway... I had one on a tubed tyre once in my life.. and believe me, the car gets impossible to control... and this was not strictly a blast, but a big nail driving up in the tyre at around 80kmph in a maruti 800..
To each his own though...I am onto my third car with tubeless tyres... and the second with stock rims... I am happier than ever....but if tube type tyres make you happier...go for it... after all tyres form but one small miniscule portion of the reasons behing road accidents... and switching to tubeless does not provide an all round insurance either...it is just that one part of your automobile becomes less prone to failure and your backside is happier with the better ride and so are your ears with the lower noise.
PS: I agree with the list that Rehaan has given... of course bear in ming that purchasing after market alloys (if you decide to forego the company provided option) can result in some cases in you also neding to go in for hub centric rings...without which the vehicle would wobble at hi speeds... of course this is not the case with all the fitments... most of the people do OK with even aftermarket alloys

[s.prashanth]

can put tubeless tyres on steel wheels, I guess the innova and skoda come with steel wheels which are not a problem, but fill with nitrogen this avoids rust

[quicksilver]

Originally Posted by GTO

Discussions on this topic have been an eye opener for me in some ways. But the bottomline is :

If you can afford it, go for tubeless with alloy wheels any day. This is the best combination.

GTO

Thats the best thing to do. You will have to be carefull with the strength of the steel discs also, as some cars, like the Indica, come with weak steel discs that bend on impact. I have had this issue with my Indica several times before I went back to tube type tyres.

Originally Posted by Shan2nu

I'm amazed that my Vtec Alloys haven't cracked after the kind of torture they've been through.

thats what you can expect if they were made by BBS. I was told the OHC Vtec alloys are bullet proof, and I believe every bit of that.

[rks]

After all my ranting against tubeless tyres on steel rims in this thread, I finally took the plunge -- and fitted the stock size (155/70 R 13) Bridgestone S322 tubeless tyres to my Santro with the exisiting 6-year old steel rims.

Thanks to all T-BHPians for their inputs -- this forum was very useful in arriving at my decision. In particular, Rehaan and Buffettfan -- I will concede the point that tubeless tyres on steel rims, while not the most ideal combination, are still better than tubed tyres on steel rims. Till the last minute I was totally confused as to what I should do and I was toying with the idea of alloys+size upgrade (165/65 R13). Here is the rationale for what I ended up doing and my experience so far (sorry for the long post).

Alloys -- the main problem is getting a good fit, apart from the cost. I thought I would go with Samurai's experience and fit the same alloys (Aura C 8350, PCD 100, offset 40 mm) to my Santro, but I found out from the dealer that the new Santro Xing (which Samurai has) has different wheels from the old Santro. Apparently the old Santro will need PCD 114 mm -- I am not sure if this info is correct -- the dealer may be talking garbage for all I know. When I asked the dealers about what the offset is for the old Santro -- they didn't know it (some of them didn't know what offset means). So I decided I will not take a chance, since high speed handling may get affected plus other long term damage may occur if I mess around with the offset.

My existing rims are 6 years old -- but the Unitread (East street) mechanic insisted that I will have no problems with rusting and advised tubeless. In fact there is a little bit of rusting in my rims, but not in the bead area. So far the pressures are holding OK.

Why didn't I upsize the tyres and why the S322, rather than the superior Turanza? While an upsize (to 165/65 R 13), even with steel rims, will improve the grip and handling (at the expense of ride and FE), I felt that the stock size will fit the stock rims (4JX13) much better -- less chance of air leaking and the tyres coming off rims when hitting huge potholes. Secondly, my old Santro is already under-powered -- so the high end performance (especially top speed) is bound to come down with upsized tyres unless further modifications are made -- but I think upsize is a good idea for the Xing. I have decided against modifications--- I plan to wait for the diesel Santro (1.1 lit, 75 BHP), likely to roll out in 2007 or 2008.

The S322 is an all-season tyre with probably longer life than the softer performance tyres like the Turanza -- this plus the fact that the tougher S322 is less likely to tear when I hit potholes on the Mumbai - Pune route, which I take every week -- are the main reasons for my preferring S322.

Finally, regarding performance -- I just drove yesterday from Pune to Mumbai. I drove *very* slowly on the horrible Hadapsar-Katraj road, the Pune bypass road and the Sion-Panvel highway -- danced around all the potholes -- didn't hit a single one -- took 3.5 hours against my usual 2 hrs 45 mins for the 174 km drive under these road conditions. But on the Expressway in the rain I hit 110-120 most of the time and 120-130 in certain stretches. The handling, as compared to my old tubed S322 tyres, is unbelievably better in wet conditions. The sharp, long-winding left turn in the Lonawala ghat section was taken at 80 kmph in *wet* conditions -- amazingly, absolutely no noise from the tyres and the grip was rock-solid. Secondly, at 120-130 kmph, the car was holding its line beautifully -- no aquaplaning, now swaying -- whereas with the old tyres (with about 2-3mm tread left) the car was virtually skating around in the Expressway under wet conditions-- and upon hitting puddles with the old tyres, the car was at times pulling hard in either direction. Why would I ever want to do better than this in a car like the 1-lit Santro? So really no point in going for performance tyres -- much more pragmatic to stick to the tough, durable, safer-on-potholes S322.

So here is a tip -- do not wait until the tread comes down to 2-3mm -- change your tyres well before that -- it is worth the extra cost -- and go tubeless if you are willing to take extra care to drive carefully on bad roads (and deal with other hassles like finding good puncture repair shops and checking tyre pressures frequently, etc.).

The original advice I got last November from Speedsatya and Shan2nu to change the tyres immediately was spot-on. I stretched my old tubed tyres to almost 6 years (and 34000 kms) and in the process took a needless risk by wearing out the tread to 2-3mm, plus the lower grip due to aging rubber. Only my good driving reflexes saved me from disaster in the rain on the Expressway (with the old worn-out tyres) -- on a couple of occasions when the car violenlty pulled to the right after hitting water puddles.

One last point -- I think on tubeless tyres, especially with steel rims, it is very important to check tyre pressures frequently (at least once a week) and also check and adust them when the tyres are cold. The air pressures will not hold up as well as in tubed tyres or with alloys, because of the rusting problem (as pointed out by Rehaan). I also believe that the air inside tubeless tyres will get more easily heated up because it is directly in contact with the steel rims, which can get very hot--the added insulation of the tubes is not available. I set the tyre pressures to 30 psi just after driving back from the tyre shop (the morons had set my spare tyre to 41 psi and other tyres were reading only 28 psi). But the next day under cold, rainy conditions, the pressures on all four tyres had dropped by 1-2 psi. I have to see if this is due to leakage from my old rims, but I think it is more likely to be due to the heat factor. If the leakage is too much, I have no optionn but to switch to alloys -- will report on this after 1-2 weeks.

[Su-47]

Originally Posted by rks

If the leakage is too much, I have no optionn but to switch to alloys -- will report on this after 1-2 weeks.

I am eagerly waiting for your report! I am due for a tyre change on my matiz and in the same dilemma of whether I should go tubeless over steel rims or not!

[nychere]

Originally Posted by aadix

rj
leave the tubes on. anyways most of the time it's gonna be used by the driver and i dont think every and every tyrewalla would now how to handle a tubless tyres

in indian road better go for alloy for tubeless

[rks]

Originally Posted by Su-47

I am eagerly waiting for your report! I am due for a tyre change on my matiz and in the same dilemma of whether I should go tubeless over steel rims or not!

My tyre pressures are holding after about a week. I am not sure if there is any drop because my compressor (with gauge) failed and had to buy a new one -- pressures are all close to 32 psi after 1 week. So far, so good -- but will have to monitor further.

From your other thread, it looks like your rims are bent and old -- so probably rusted. I would recommend that you go for alloys if you can afford it. Make sure that you get the proper fit for your car (PCD, offset). Otherwise get your rims repaired in a good tyre shop (with appropriate tools -- not by hammering) and get them checked to see if they recommend fitting tubeless -- you may need to get the rims repainted to prevent further rusting.

If you fit tubeless on stock rims, I would advise you to stick to the stock tyre size -- with bigger tyres, the sealing may not be as good on the small rims. Also if you are driving on bad roads -- drive carefully, and go for all-season tyres (S322) rather than performance tyres like Potenza or Turanza. The performance tyres are bound to be softer and more prone to tearing/punctures on bad roads with potholes and sharp stones. Just today I met a Matiz owner who said that he got a puncture -- he had just fitted brand new Turanza tyres (stock size) on steel rims. The grip I get even from the S322 tubeless (stock size in my Santro) is awesome compared to the tubed S322.

One last piece of advice-- inspect your new tyres carefully and check the dates marked on them before buying. I forgot to check the dates and got 4-month old tyres -- should have insisted on fresh stock.