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Old 16th November 2008, 21:01   #181
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Originally Posted by Ym-enjn View Post
That is the funniest thing I have read on this thread so far (high rev at 60kmph) . That was the mystery I was not able to solve. Next question.. Why not at 0 kmph and enjoy to the fullest? If you want to compare Altis and Civic then lets get back to the Civic vs Altis thread. All i want to say here is that I feel that at a price difference of 53K "I think" Civic Hybrid is better than 1.8V.

Anyone who bought Civic in 2008 should not feel bad as you should know before doing your purchase that Honda always do this.
That's not only with Honda but with all other manufacturers who wish to sell cars. They have to keep updating the lineup to keep them fresh and remain competitive. The old Corolla had that problem. They never updated it and it died till the Altis came along and rescued it somewhat. Same thing is going to happen with the Innova.

Also, if your not an enthusiast you will never understand an honda engine. There is no engine which can come close to the refinement and rev happy nature of a honda. Probably BMW and mercedes only can be compared.

The civic will very easily come close to 60kmph in 1st gear without breaking a sweat. The Mitsubishi and toyota engines at that rpm will feel as if they are about to blow and come off.

Mind you I have a mitsubishi and it does not rev as easily as an OHC engine or a Civics. The toyota struggles even more to rev.

Ps: I'm not taking of sides of any car honda or toyota. Infact I'm about to book the Altis but the fact is that the engine is a compromise when compared to the Honda.

Anyways back to the Hybrid. 16L OTR bangalore means it's 1L more than the normal V spec petrol.
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Old 16th November 2008, 21:13   #182
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Originally Posted by Sahil View Post
Performance is not much of a criteria here. The car will be used mainly in the daytime stop n go traffic, and most likely to be driven by the driver most often. I have the BMW to cater to my power hunger at night and highway runs.

Its not only about the savings here, the civic is easier to drive in traffic. And also the feel-good factor that the hybrid gives you, not only is it cutting edge technology but also cuts pollution. Not to mention the civic hybrid will be much cheaper to maintain than the Jetta thanks to it's 4 year maintenance plan. Moreover the Passat DSG problems reported in another thread have me concerned on the Jetta DSG purchase..
Yes makes sense if all the below are met.
  • one is already decided on an decided on an automatic
  • criteria mentioned above
  • price holds good.
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Old 16th November 2008, 23:31   #183
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
….
In my books, if I buy a Civic, I buy one for exploiting its potential. 1.8 M + slickshifting 5 speed. Its faster, quicker and cheaper to own over 10 years (hybrid resale still a grey area). Plus, I’ll be smiling every night and waiting to high-revv on the highway.
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Originally Posted by vid6639 View Post
Also, if your not an enthusiast you will never understand an honda engine. There is no engine which can come close to the refinement and rev happy nature of a honda. Probably BMW and mercedes only can be compared.

The civic will very easily come close to 60kmph in 1st gear without breaking a sweat. The Mitsubishi and toyota engines at that rpm will feel as if they are about to blow and come off
Yes – the revv-happy Civic (regular & not hybrid); an enthusiast’s car; need to be driven differently. And so the Civic has a special place in t-bhp. Agreed and rightly so. It’s great for the highway, but I must also add that Civic is not an all rounder.

Now coming to the point I want to make:
Barring a few handful on these enthusiasts, 99% of all those who buy Civic buy it do not buy it for the above reason. It is just a symbol of status and luxury. Performance or practicalities are least in the minds of these people. Ask a few Civic owners who are not on the forum and you will realize this.

Examples:
  • One colleague got the Civic AT because it is “more advanced” than the MT the other colleague had! (this guy is 100% chauffeured!!)
  • Another neighbor upgraded from City to Civic just because she wanted a “bigger car” to carry more things during weekends (even now she does not know Civic boot is 20% less than of City)
  • A couple of longer ones... no, I will reserve them for the jokes thread
Conclusion: The HYBRID at slightly higher price than AT is just a logical extension as the symbol of status and luxury.
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Old 17th November 2008, 00:51   #184
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Originally Posted by vid6639 View Post
That's not only with Honda but with all other manufacturers who wish to sell cars. They have to keep updating the lineup to keep them fresh and remain competitive. The old Corolla had that problem. They never updated it and it died till the Altis came along and rescued it somewhat. Same thing is going to happen with the Innova.

Also, if your not an enthusiast you will never understand an honda engine. There is no engine which can come close to the refinement and rev happy nature of a honda. Probably BMW and mercedes only can be compared.

The civic will very easily come close to 60kmph in 1st gear without breaking a sweat. The Mitsubishi and toyota engines at that rpm will feel as if they are about to blow and come off.

Mind you I have a mitsubishi and it does not rev as easily as an OHC engine or a Civics. The toyota struggles even more to rev.

Anyways back to the Hybrid. 16L OTR bangalore means it's 1L more than the normal V spec petrol.
I've been regularly driving my civic MT for 2 - and corolla for about 4 years now. Try to navigate a civic MT at a low-end RPM and you'll know most indian drivers would chose a dated corolla over civic.

Civic low-end torque is a joke. As far as I'm concerned, my chances of driving in a mad-rush-hour-city-traffic are much higher than high-revving my car at 4k RPM. I'll pick a good low end torque over high-end revving, any day.
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Old 17th November 2008, 11:12   #185
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Default Mystery Solved

So here's why they are selling the 2007 civic Hybrid @ 13.65L. Anyone wants to wait for the 2009 Model.

2009 Honda Civic Hybrid Review: Honda’s gas sipper goes upscale

Well Toyota did it with the Corolla, so why not the Civic Hybrid. So if you wait some more, you might get a 2007 Civic 1.8V at under 10L.
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Old 17th November 2008, 13:29   #186
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Smile Honda sells 98 Hybrids a day after price cut

It seems to be working

More details - Honda sells 98 Hybrids a day after price cut- Automobiles-Auto-News By Industry-News-The Economic Times
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Old 17th November 2008, 13:46   #187
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Considering the fact that apart from a few good highways in Gujurat or Bombay Pune expressway, most highways in India are not safe for speed in excess of 120 kmph.
Exactly!! Even in the 70 kph - 90 kph window - which is a matter of fact on most typically Indian highways - the Hybrid will be woefully incapable. I'll tell you why : Trucks & luxury buses (especially!) regularly cruise at 60 - 80 kph. Thus, on a regular Indian highway, you need to overtake them atleast at a speed of 10 - 20 kph more. Good luck with doing that in a CVT + a 1.3 liter petrol on what is a pretty large car! Don't forget, CVTs are the worst tranny to have in such a situation (ask any NHC CVT owner) with their rubberband effect anyways. And then, you have that puny 1.3 engine. Thus, the Hybrid is not suited for either expressway driving NOR Indian 2 lane highway driving. Sure, I see the sense in buying a 16.5 lakh car that can be used ONLY in the city.

BUTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT the point of my argument is : For a Civic Hybrid, we are paying 1.0 - 1.5 lakhs MORE for the performance + efficiency of a entry level C segment sedan. My question to you is : Why pay 1.5 lakhs more for substandard performance AND 12.5 kpl? Heck, PAY 8 LAKHS LESS for the same thing. Honda has some sweet deals running on the outgoing NHC & the NHC Vtec. One of these cars will match / exceed the Civic hybrid on efficiency, the other will leave it dead on performance and still give ya about the same efficiency with a light foot.

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Originally Posted by aseem View Post
It changes ppls perception. Its definitely a good tag to be associated with.
Great to hear that you care about people perceptions of yourself. I buy a car for my own pleasure / utility, not because of what people will think of me.

Don't get me wrong; I appreciate Honda R&D'ing toward newer technologies. However, the Civic Hybrid is a flawed technology compared to even the Prius. The Prius EXCLUSIVELY uses its electric motor below the speed of 40. Thus, in our bumper to bumper traffic, it is the most ideal (and silent). Compare that to the Civic Hybrid which, in a drive from Churchgate to Shivaji Park, will stop & start the petrol engine about 75 times. Annoying and terribly inconvenient if you ask me. There is a reason why the Prius outsells the Civic Hybrid 10 : 1. Honda has publicly accepted their folly (almost) and has vowed to fight back with a exclusively hybrid model range.

"Advanced Technology" yada yada sounds brilliant. What we have to ask is : How RELEVANT is this advanced technology to us? Its not like the Civic Hybrid is giving you 30 kpl and nor is it flying from Juhu to Nariman Point. What it does give you is performance that cars costing 1/3 the price will give you. And efficiency that cars costing 1/2 as much will exceed. Frankly, I think the Civic Hybrid is the most pointless car you can buy in that segment. Why?

If you want efficiency : Get a diesel. It will be faster, more efficient and FAR cheaper to own than a Hybrid. There's also many petrols which will beat the Hybrids efficiency at a fraction of the price.

If you want power : Umm, next question please. BTW, I can name SEVERAL CHEAPER diesel / petrol cars that will beat the Civic Hybrid on performance PLUS efficiency (a combination of both)!

If you want the goodies : I see some comments on the Hybrids 6 airbags and rear "lip" spoiler. A Toyota Altis has a better spec list than the Hybrid, starting with the electric lumbar support & the HID headlamps + washers. And then, you have cars like the Laura etc.

If you want to go green: : Buy a small diesel, or a smaller – inherently more efficient – hatch / sedan. You could also buy the Reva.

Quote:
However in ideal conditions one rearly goes above 4k RPM even when doing spirited driving…..
There I dont see a Getz reaching 100 kmph faster than Hybrid in ideal on road conditions……

Its more likely the Getz driver reaches 100 in 5th gear, by that time the hybrid thanks to its in gear accerlation would be miles ahead.
Firstly, the Getz can touch a 100 in 3rd gear not 5th. Second, if the Getz is faster to the 100, how does the Hybrids in-gear help it reach 100 faster? Lastly, if you think that the Getz is debatable, I can list atleast 10 more cars – costing ˝ or 1/3 the price – that will leave the hybrid for dead.

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Originally Posted by sidwadia View Post
Have you personally experienced this tortoise pace in the hybrid ? if yes , then i will have to accept it ! if not , I would go by swale84's post (#154)on the low end torque.
Sid, I am the kind of a guy who will run for a test even when a new LPG variant of the 800 is launched. Yes, I have driven the hybrid Civic albeit on a short drive.

Quote:
Secondly , no where in your calculations have you taken into account the savings on the 17 free services incld. consumables.
Point accepted.

Quote:
the article on "Hypermiling" surely indicates potential to go above & beyond.
Some practices of hypermiling are outright dangerous!! Plus, you want to buy a 16.5 lakh car and hypermile / drive with the sole point of fuel efficiency? When there are other (cheaper) cars that do it better? And cheaper cars - with hypermiling - will beat the Civic by a "mile" on kpl bragging rights.

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Originally Posted by Ym-enjn View Post
I totally agree with you. Then why all the Civic enthus always talk of high revving the Civic? Where do they go , Malaysia? Race track..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ym-enjn View Post
That is the funniest thing I have read on this thread so far (high rev at 60kmph)
Does every Porsche owner have to drive @ 320 kph to appreciate performance? I hope you understand that its not necessary to enjoy a fast car only at ridiculous speeds. The Vtec is a lot of fun even at 80 kph, just as a gokart is mega @ 40 kph. Even the Yamaha RX100, wont go over 100 kph, is a blast to ride at speeds at low as 50 kph.

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Originally Posted by Path_Finder View Post
Now coming to the point I want to make:
Barring a few handful on these enthusiasts, 99% of all those who buy Civic buy it do not buy it for the above reason.
Agreed. Precisely why I posted (on the Altis thread) that though I love the Civic more, I will recommend the Altis more.
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Old 17th November 2008, 15:13   #188
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Is this really true? I just don't believe that Honda has reduced the price to such a great extent. Rs 13.65 lakh is just amazing, nearly about the price of Honda Civic petrol car, right? I heard about it couple of days back but I thought its a romour. Good time to go green!
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Old 17th November 2008, 15:58   #189
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Hi GTO,
I seem to have a different opinion ( after having driven the test vehicle yesterday for over 30kms - Highway + city ).
A) Power - Extremely improbable that the "getz" or alikes would "close in" on the Hybrid in the 0 to 60 dash. frankly speaking , I think the Hybrid is possibly as good as the 1.8 Civic in attaining this speed. Really , I am astonished (after driving it myself) that you experienced far lower power.

B) On the Highway - Yes , its no where comparable to the speeds a regular 1.8 civic can reach with ease , however , touching 120 wasnt really a struggle. Not sure of the economy a 1.3 litre engine would deliver at those speeds , but are we confident of getting a lower mileage than the regular civic even at higher speeds ?

C) Economy - A swift diesel would possibly give a better economy than a Laura. Does that mean all economy seekers should not buy a Laura ? I believe , everyone seeks an acceptable balance in their priorities - economy / power / space / luxury / features / style. To my mind , the the hybrid is a good combination of style,economy,luxury & features. Power is reasonable and surely not enough for an enthusiast - like yourself.

If I spend an extra 3 lacs to get a Jetta / Laura automatic (since they offer similar/ some what better features ) would I be able to recover the extra 3 Lacs + maintenance cost (incld. high spare parts costs) within 80k to 100k kms ? Lets say the Jetta / Laura gives me a mileage of 16kmpl where as civic gives 12.5.

Diesel cost @ Rs.35 a litre (Delhi) , thus a Rs.2.10 per km
Petro cost @ Rs.55 a litre (Delhi) , thus a Rs.4.40 per km
Net diff : Rs.2.30 per km
Over 100k kms - Rs.230000/- . actual increased outlay was 3 Lacs.
This is without taking into account the maintenance cost benefit offered by Honda , nor the costly spare parts for the Jetta / Skoda. Nor does this take into account the loss of interest on the 3 lacs for the no. of years taken to reach a break even.

D) Goodies : Which others cars would offer me the same package at the same cost ? ( cost: running + maintenance ). Altis / 1.8 Civic Auto ....
Can i get 2 airbags retrofitted in any car? NO ,
Do i need headlamp washers ? Not really.
HID lamps- yes , sure i can get this fitted in the hybrid.
Can i get rear sets aircon vents retrofitted ? Not sure.
Electric adjustable seats & lumbar support - YES , Its certainly desirable.

Thus , I dont think is "as bad" as its made out to be. Your views pls.

Cheers
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Old 17th November 2008, 17:05   #190
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Hi Sidwadia,

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Originally Posted by sidwadia View Post
Power - Extremely improbable that the "getz" or alikes would "close in" on the Hybrid in the 0 to 60 dash.
Sure, maybe they'd be on par in the 0 - 60. I was talking about the performance deficit in the 0 - 100 run. 0 - 100 is the standard ever since cars got more powerful, 0 - 60 was used in the Padmini & Ambassador days. I understand that 0 - 60 is prolly more important in the urban jungle that we live in, but my reference was toward the 0 - 100 dash in previous posts. And yes, I was disappointed in the hybrids lack of pep in the 0 - 100, considering that it is a 16.5 lakh car.

Quote:
Not sure of the economy a 1.3 litre engine would deliver at those speeds , but are we confident of getting a lower mileage than the regular civic even at higher speeds ?
There is little difference in the highway mileage of the two engines. However, I was talking about the highway performance NOT efficiency. That CVT is DREADFUL on Indian highways.

Quote:
C) Economy - A swift diesel would possibly give a better economy than a Laura. Does that mean all economy seekers should not buy a Laura ?
If Skoda were to launch a version of the Laura @ 1.5 lacs more, that loses the very essence of a Laura, I'd say economy seekers should look elsewhere. Driving pleasure is one of the few USPs of the Civic in this competitive market (low seating = no comfort, Altis beats it on practicality etc. etc. Just look at the declining sales!). The essence of a Civic lies in how great it is to drive. The Hybrid entirely changes that. Plus, to extract the max mileage, you'd have to pussy foot the car. Whats the point of buying a 16.5 lakh car and then, driving with the sole purpose of fuel efficiency?

Quote:
If I spend an extra 3 lacs to get a Jetta / Laura automatic (since they offer similar/ some what better features ) would I be able to recover the extra 3 Lacs + maintenance cost (incld. high spare parts costs) within 80k to 100k kms ?
Since you got into putting a number on everything, the Skoda does give you better performance, superior build, (arguably) a higher level of safety, superior dynamics, a better tranny (DSG), sunroof, xenons etc. etc. You could make up 1.5 lakh of the difference by putting a number to the benefits alone. Plus, diesel Skodas depreciate amongst the lowest in the market and I bet that a diesel Laura would fetch a better resale too. However, Skodas aren't exactly cheap to own and I'd be the first to tell ya that (as I have previously on this forum ).

However, we are again missing the point here. I fail to see the sense in spending 16.5 lakhs for a car and then, compromising a lot (power, a good transmission, highway performance, boot space, driving pleasure) all for a saving of 1,666 in fuel costs per month.

Quote:
I believe , everyone seeks an acceptable balance in their priorities - economy / power / space / luxury / features / style. To my mind , the the hybrid is a good combination of style,economy,luxury & features. Power is reasonable and surely not enough for an enthusiast - like yourself.
Quote:
Thus , I dont think is "as bad" as its made out to be. Your views pls.
Difference in opinion is what makes this community interesting, as well as helps in bringing out the facts. I don't have to agree with everyone and vice versa. Obviously you are sold on the Hybrid, and by all means should go ahead with the purchase. I look forward to delivery pics and an ownership report!
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Old 17th November 2008, 17:10   #191
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I'm afraid Mr. Enjin has absolutely no idea what high-revving is.

Isn't that blasphemy of some sort around these parts? Break out the pitchforks and torches!

On a more serious note, a friend of mine has gone for the Hybrid for all the wrong reasons. I shall try to persuade him to post an ownership report when it arrives.

Last edited by ImmortalZ : 17th November 2008 at 17:14.
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Old 17th November 2008, 17:15   #192
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Default Good news for previous Civic owners

Source: wheelsunplugged

Honda Siel Cars India (HSCI), after having recently slashed the price of its Civic Hybrid by over Rs. 8 lakh to make it Rs. 13.36 lakh, is now considering to pay back the excess amount that its earlier customers have shelled out additionally (before the price cut). Although the company has indicated that they are not legally bound to do so, but it has expressed its inclination to compensate them, in order to maintain its goodwill in the market, as reported by 'The Hindustan Times. After reducing the cost of the car by 40 per cent, Honda has already exhausted the first consignment of nearly 200 hybrids and a second shipment is on its way.
What Honda Siel could not achieve in the last five months with its Civic Hybrid model, it managed to do it just one day when it reduced its price on 12th Nov'08. A limited period offer, 98 units were sold finishing the entire batch of the first lot that was imported earlier. Company officials expect the next consignment to arrive in the next few days and it is expected that it may end up selling another 100 cars then. The Civic Hybrid which delivers an average of 20 km per litre of petrol, comes with a lifetime warranty and the latest pricing ploy seems to have worked in its favour. The model had generated a lot of enthusiasm among customers and industry bodies. But the exorbitant price of the aforesaid model held back purchases especially in metros of Delhi and Mumbai. The Honda Civic Hybrid has the distinction of being India's First Hybrid car. In line with Honda's long-term commitment to the development of advanced technologies that do not compromise on driving pleasure, the Civic Hybrid offers a rare combination of being environmentally friendly, fuel efficient and also having a high fun-to-drive quotient.
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Old 17th November 2008, 17:21   #193
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GTO the point you are missing is that in Gurgaon and NCR the price difference is only Rs. 53000 between Civic Automatic and Civic Hybrid. The difference can be easily attributed to increased features, better fit and finish of Japanese import, better technology, 4 years unlimited warranty with consumables, better mileage, and 12 year batter warranty.

And the 1.3 ltr engine of Civic is a healthy 95 PS (substancially more than any 1.3 ltr engine in the market). The power is more than that off Octi 1.9 TDI (of course the torque left out). Having said that, it defintely has more power on the tap.

I think your argument might only hold true in Mumbai where the price difference is 1.5 Lakhs. In Delhi when the price difference is just 50k, your calculations dont neccesarily hold true on face value.

Last edited by aseem : 17th November 2008 at 17:26.
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Old 17th November 2008, 17:31   #194
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I think we need to stop arguing about the hybrid civic's VFM at 13 odd lakhs because the price does not stand anymore.
The dealer informed me that they are ready to book the car again but the price will prevail as the one at the time of delivery, which most likely would be a hiked price.
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Old 17th November 2008, 17:36   #195
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I drove a hybrid(albeit with a powerful petrol engine) about 650 miles in 1.5 days.
On the entire highway run, the electric motor was being charged most of the times. Infact, only in city the electric motor came to life, and I got a terrific economy of 35mpg while driving in urban cycle.
On the highway this dropped to 29-30mpg.
The car did not feel sluggish because it had 170 bhp motor in the hood. So on highways it will depend on how poweful your petrol mill is.
0-100 dash can be quick on a fully charged battery with electric motor providing assitance, but on highway runs you will feel the benefit if you are doing a highway run with a lot of stops due to bad traffic.
If you want a hybrid for fuel economy, don't. It won't do miracles, and a diesel will give you better kmpl even if you factor out the cost difference.
Hybrids are efficient as compared to normal petrols, but they are nowhere near the efficiency of diesels, except in a strictly urban cycle where they can compete neck to neck with similarly powered diesels.
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