[Psycho]

Originally Posted by iceman91

I am talking about projects gone bad/wrong due to tuner/customer error.

Well it is personal choice and as far as my experience goes this forum has allowed people to come out in the open with issues they have faced as long as it was not a personal attack.

But here is the key difference between dealerships ands tuners here is "How many dealerships are officially represented on this forum?" - Hardly any if I am right. Hence a thread supported with evidence tends to come out in the open and frankly more open in the case of tuners as each customer is exposed to the complete set of work done on their cars as against dealerships where at times there is no proof even if any service was even done?

Hence saying it is biased itself is wrong, c'mon I personally have been on the receiving end here quite a few times primarily as expectations may or may not be quantified by every body and perceptions of a modded car versus a stock car being serviced are completely different. (Note: The expectations can be set both by the tuner and by the customer themselves)

The discussion is definitely interesting in terms of understanding the difference of perceptions across the country but a can of worms may not be my cup of tea. Hope this thread helps the community on the whole instead of turning into a slinging match.

[tadukuttan]

Originally Posted by iceman91

Just A query, It is in plain view to all of us but do we turn a blind eye?
my point being:
"It is sad and questionable when there are a lot more dark stories to car modifications by tuners which get pushed under a carpet and people keep mum about it, while if a dealership does one, he is grilled/boycotted/etc.etc. by tbhpians on the forum."

Why does this happen?
Have we ever thought about this?

Everyone knows it but not a lot want to talk about it, why?

I request people who have been affected or had an experience to post. Others kindly excuse, A lot of hearsay goes on and this thread is to avoid it.

We say Teambhpians stand by the TRUTH, why not out with it?


Cheers

Ok, I will take all this seriously if you post the story of why your car is "stock" now.

Until then, keep them substances flowing.

[PAVAN KADAM]

This topic is really tricky.

What we want for our machines are basically in our head, "crystal clear", but by the time you download it to the tuner or the team, 50% of the ideas are perculated.

In such cases the outcome is LONDON when we basically intend to go TOKYO

Yes Tuners screwing up a customers car, due to sheer negligence as in so many cases seen, even the end user has some percentage of fault at his end.

iceman might have tried to open up a can of worms, but to no avail, the worms have already spoilt the broth.

You are at the mercy of the Tuner during any such modification, and thats the "BOTTOMLINE".

[navin]

Originally Posted by srijit

iceman, the problem is that it will just turn into a shouting match. Unless there is concrete proof, documentation etc, both sides wont shut up.

Originally Posted by iceman91

"It is sad and questionable when there are a lot more dark stories to car modifications by tuners which get pushed under a carpet and people keep mum about it, while if a dealership does one, he is grilled/boycotted/etc.etc. by tbhpians on the forum."

Originally Posted by theMAG

outcomes of interactions with customers between tuners/dealerships vary, depending on maturity of people on both sides.

Originally Posted by iceman91

My point being why are tuner stories where the customer can be at fault or the tuner or both being hushed up?

Originally Posted by amitoj

However, when one goes to a tuner, it is impractical to have those kind of expectations!!

Originally Posted by iceman91

I am talking about projects gone bad/wrong due to tuner/customer error.

Originally Posted by crazydiablo

I have heard a lot of stories,...most of the time its a misunderstanding.

Originally Posted by Psycho

The discussion is definitely interesting in terms of understanding the difference of perceptions across the country but a can of worms may not be my cup of tea. Hope this thread helps the community on the whole instead of turning into a slinging match.

Firstly in almost every case when the customer does not get what he/she desired the "tuner" will claim that he/she deliveed what he/she (the tuner) promised. Lets put this in a simpler format.

I have a car. I go to Tuner X and tell him/her that I want the car to do 0-100 in 6 seconds. The tuner recommends a series of performance upgrades (engine, suspension, intake/exhaust, brakes, tyres, etc..). At the end of these upgrades my car still does not do 0-100 in 6 seconds and due to the series of upgrades (the parts of these upgrades are not always certified to be used with each other) the car is now not as reliable. Who would you blame?

The problem as I see it starts with Google. Google is dangerous. Google can only be used to supplement (as a refesher course) knowledge that has been earned on the shop floor. Most customers who go to tuners do not adequate shop floor experience.

In addition to Google (and all those Modification forums on the net) many tuners themselves might or might not have executed similar work before after all how many customers does a tuner really get in a month.

In the end the customer and tuner will turn TBHP into a verbal boxing ring. This will make TBHP an unpleasant experience for everyone.

1. Customers and Tuners need to be more mature in their approach and measured in their expectations.
2. The car involved should not be a "daily driver" as in many cases the reliabiltiy or function of the car can get seriously compromised.
3. Before a Modificaion or Customization is carried out both Customers and Tuners should first chalk out an exact plan of action, discuss cost and availability of parts and labour involved, failure issues and detail the entire process and list check points if a number of modificaitons are being executed at the same time (something that is not recommended - make one change at a time this way you know which modification caused the mess).

Just becuase Chip Foose can do it (in 7 days no less) on TV does not mean you can! That is a TV show we live in reality.

[quicksilver]

Interesting thread there iceman91, and I hope this does not turn into a mudslinging one leading to it's eventual closure.

It is only fair that tuners also be given the same kind of treatment that a dealer would be given (or may be even a bit stricter because a tuner uses the forum to indirectly advertise their skills, a dealer hardly does/bothers). We in the forum also endorse certain tuners by posting our experiences with them and getting others interested. That way, I would say, the forum has a responsibility too.

Apart from the various (valid) reasons mentioned above, there is also the case of tuners attitude towards a paying customer. Agreed the customer may not have quiet the same level of knowledge that the tuner has, but as a paying customer, I believe everyone has a right to know what exactly is being done on his/her car and for what reason.... Not many tuners share this information with the customer? It is more of a "I know what you need and what you should get" attitude with the tuners that lead to their downfall. And I am talking about the established tuners, not the 'aspiring ones' with attitude issues, or the so called 'vapour wares'. I was pleasantly surprised to see Autopsyche owning up to his errors with another members car and apologize and offer to help in correcting the wrong doings. Hardly any other here that have done the same?

From a user perspective, it is imperative NOT to assume things but ask direct questions and be clear about what to expect out of the tuning job. More important, always be aware of the compromises made as the tuner may not always list out the negatives (like engine becoming rough, idling issues, etc). These intensity of these trade-offs may vary depending on someones perspective. Once the customer is clear with what to expect, he can then talk to the tuner and set a firm budget and timeline for the job. This I see is the only way to ensure sanity on jobs like these.

[narayan]

Originally Posted by Psycho

But here is the key difference between dealerships ands tuners here is "How many dealerships are officially represented on this forum?" - Hardly any if I am right. .

valid point - precisely for that reason a lot of threads on dealership reviews are one sided but then once more and more members come out reg the same dealership on their bad experiences, you somehow make a conclusion on the dealership


with the tuning scene - i think a lot of issues happen because the expectations are not set straight at the outset between customer and tuner.

ITS MORE IMPORTANT IMO A TUNING CUSTOMER TO KNOW WHAT HE IS GETTING INTO THAN A CUSTOMER TAKING HIS CAR TO A DEALERSHIP FOR REGULAR SERVICE

if you are totally ignorant then be prepared to be more cheated in the tuning side than the dealer side. (IMO)


also i think a customer who has gone the tuning route possibly does not want to narrate his bad experiences in public probably because he feels he it compromises peoples opinion about him on the choice of tuner/mods

wheras , its quite easy for me to just go public about the bad service XYZ dealership gave because i dont have to think about what others will think on my decision to go to that dealer !

[autopsyche]

Food for thought.

Has anybody figured why the biggest tuners/parts importers/performance workshop owners etc from all over our country, are all PRESENT are on the forum but INACTIVE? Inspite of their work mentioned in all threads.

Im not saying everyone, but most of them. A lot of them had been active earlier, but have trickled down to a few odd posts a year now. I dont need to name anyone. All members know who does what work here, the tuner's and supplier's list are here, all other who do similar work are here. Here but where? Where have they gone? More importantly why have they gone?

From my side I salute all automotive service providers who stand up to their work on and off the forum. Please do chip into this thread with your views, i look forward to your replies more than other members.

Arush

[speedzak]

I think everybody has got it wrong here by mentioning the word TUNING, TUNER etc...

Simple routine maintenance jobs done by certain Bhpians and the workshops they represent has also ran into very weird circumstances. There wasn't any BIG expectations involved in those cases. The customers were cheated, abused, ignored and even shown the door in the most rude manners possible. Are we supposed to be quite in these issues too? And names of the culprits never be mentioned here? A mere finger pointing would be considered as Personal attacks?

Sorry, if we can talk truth about different car manufacturers, dealers, managers, advisors etc... then, it should be applicable to all. Any kind of discrimination should not be allowed just because the wrong doer is a Bhpian.
My view! What say?

[pramodkumar]

Its basically a comunication problem that most of us have, we dont exactly know what we need at times a guy who just needs a wicked exhaust note and guess what some tuners suggest a free flow and will never be happy with because problems like power loss millage loss ect, this happens due to lack of knowledge and the most dangerous half baked knowlegde, most of us have this misconsuption that if we sound more knowlegable than we actually are we might get a great bargain and thats exactly how we get into trouble. Remember a car is not like a shirt if u dont like it u can stop wearing it, u have to live with it. i feel getting A mod job done for a lesser cost (which is the usual case) is more like taking your car to a local garrage if you are not happy you dont go there ever again, Happened to me i got the entire set of 4 skirts for my esteem(2 for the sides and 2 for the bumpers) for 1200 RS when i was in delhi, the front bumper lip got damaged, just one cost me 800 RS after that so what did i do, got rid of them and simply did not go there ever. But i remember i used to go to geo motors in hyderabad for servicing my lancer i ensure i give them a piece of my mind if i see a single oil stain on my foot mat, i hope i did justice to a customers attitude.

[Cyrus43]

Nice Thread!! And I think it has been a long time coming. Also, There has been a similar thread in the past where someone did not like the quality of work done by a Tuner and had complained. It was a long time ago and i dont remember it now. There was also another thread in which someone had falsely blamed jiggy for no fault of his.

Anyways, I dont think this thread will be bumped off anytime soon. TeamBHP is an open forum and if someone thinks that they havent been given the quality they deserve for the money they have spent, it is their right to speak up. The problem though is that if the guy is a newbie, everyone pounces on him, and the guy either stops posting or the guy gets annoyed, abuses someone and gets banned. So I think what we should learn to do is patiently listen to both sides and give an opinion.


OT: Zakkkooo!!! Stop mindbanging with iceman's brains!! Amit, Give him hell in Bangy!!

[BaCkSeAtDrIVeR]

1. You go to a shop, and ask for a replica of a painting.

2. You go to an artist, and ask for a painting of a "beautiful lady".

Got the difference?

When we buy a car, we are essentially doing (1).

In case of (2), so many variables are involved. Like the concept of "beautiful". And, err.. mmm.. <self censored>.

And assuming that the tuner has got exactly what the customer intended when the customer said "beautiful lady", there still are several slips / holes through which both parties can claim problems.

[ImmortalZ]

I kind of disagree with the sentiment that Google is dangerous. It is as dangerous as a car mag or a tuning mag. In the end, it is the responsibility of the workshop to tell the customer what is possible and what isn't within a certain budget in our country. If you over promise and under deliver, it isn't the fault of Google. It is your own.

As for the customer, I'd like to repeat what Zakko told me the other day. Whatever research you do online, do not spend one paisa or agree to a job until you talk to others who have gone through what you are about to.

[rjstyles69]

Originally Posted by speedzak

I think everybody has got it wrong here by mentioning the word TUNING, TUNER etc...

Simple routine maintenance jobs done by certain Bhpians and the workshops they represent has also ran into very weird circumstances. There wasn't any BIG expectations involved in those cases. The customers were cheated, abused, ignored and even shown the door in the most rude manners possible. Are we supposed to be quite in these issues too? And names of the culprits never be mentioned here? A mere finger pointing would be considered as Personal attacks?

Sorry, if we can talk truth about different car manufacturers, dealers, managers, advisors etc... then, it should be applicable to all. Any kind of discrimination should not be allowed just because the wrong doer is a Bhpian.
My view! What say?

Zak completely agree with your POV. Expectation is the mother of all problems if I could say so. Big or small they really don't matter coz at the end of the day if you don't get what you paid for, you have a sore head and your money has gone down the drain.

Like every coin has 2 sides, why is that we never get to listen to stories from both the sides ?
I have seen threads being closed abruptly without a solution leaving bad tastes among both parties and the readers.

Originally Posted by pramodkumar

Its basically a comunication problem that most of us have, we dont exactly know what we need at times a guy who just needs a wicked exhaust note and guess what some tuners suggest a free .............. ........

Anna some punctuation would have helped. You had me grasping for me breath.

[techn0l0gist]

Originally Posted by iceman91

Why does this happen?
Have we ever thought about this?

Everyone knows it but not a lot want to talk about it, why?

A lot of times the "tuners" also are close friends/acquaintances, and just for the sake of the relationship the stories are not brought out in the open.

about the mis-matched expectations part - i don't know if that is the major issue - most of the stories would be related to carelessness on part of the "tuner". for example something like - a car goes for head work and on the way back home overheats and seizes - all for a radiator hose that wasn't tightened properly, and the blame would go to the owner for not looking at the temperature gauge! (this is not a real story - just an example, but i'm sure there are people with similar stories!)

[pramodkumar]

You had me grasping for me breath.[/quote]