[USR]

I was thinking to buy a gurkha ....but its damn expensive and going out of my budget.....Know i am thinking to buy a Trax Kargo King 4x4 with same engine & 4x4 (They have shown this combination on the site) ....any suggestions

[vinod_nookala]

USR,
I have driven a single cab pickup of trax. I must say that it is very comfortable for a pickup and far better than a Mahindra pick up single cab. Go for it if you have loads of patience to wait for a 4wd version. Without diff locks it is useless. With diff locks the waiting can be agonising and price well above other pickups in the market even with 4wd!

[vishwaschettri]

Did any one knew this is the most replied and most viewed thread in 4x4 section leading the second one on both accounts by more than double.

Go on folks I have my soda and popcorn ready.

cheers
vishwas

[Jeeper]

Dear All,

I am following this thread since a year before I became member of the TBHP. As I was planning to repatriate back to India and wanted to have capable off-road vehicle in my garage for weekend outings. In November '08 did post some communication on this forum but response was disappointing.

I am in India since October '08, before returning to India I was having Jeep CJ 7 with me in Indonesia and was quite happy with the vehicle, performance and its capabilities.

Since my arrival I consider Gurkha as potential offroader but not the one I am looking for. I did workout several option of modifying Gypsy including engine swap to 1.6 liter but still not convinced.

Ultimately am still interested to launch a project of modding a brand new Gurkha and willing to put all resources to make an ultimate dream machine.

To start with, need to form a team of like minded mates to get together and conclude the upgrades to baseline the project.

Over view of the up-gradation in my view are as follows.
1, Suspension
2, 33 - 36 " Wheels (Bigger the Better)
3, Optimize the Power Train & Drive Line to achieve the best possible, torque & Power to Weight Ratio.
4, Other off-road essentials.

Have seen many Mentors & Auto-crates debating over here in this and related forums, does anyone interested in executing the project ???

(Suggesting the same for die hard Gypsy lovers to start a new thread on modding a dream Gypsy, please don't ask me why not Gypsy as I am here in this thread for Gurkha not Gypsy)

[Brutus]

Originally Posted by Jeeper

Over view of the up-gradation in my view are as follows.
1, Suspension
2, 33 - 36 " Wheels (Bigger the Better)
3, Optimize the Power Train & Drive Line to achieve the best possible, torque & Power to Weight Ratio.
4, Other off-road essentials.

Hi Jeeper,
Everyone has their choices of vehicles, and there's no problem in your choice. Since every manufacture has to attain a compromise to achieve every aspect of vehicle performance, sometings have to be lost to make gains elsewhere, therefore there is no single vehicle that rules above the rest.

This is the primary reason why people go in for modifications to make a vehicle suitable for their terrian, though it may not be as good as it was stock for the other types of terrian, for i.e. a vehicle set up for sand may not be as good on rock or even snow. I hope you get my point and please specify what kind of terrian you would want to mod your vehicle for.

Also please specify your budget besides the price of the Gurkha.

Now coming to mods, this depends on how you would want to drive your vehicle. If its primarily a road going vehicle, you would not want to go in for extreme mods, but if you want to make a hardcore offroader, and used for the roughest terrian without more chances of breaking things, then you would have to upgrade parts like axles,etc especially since you are planning to use bigger tires.

Now let me list some mods you are planning and what you would have to do to upgrade for them.

1) Tires- Bigger and wider tires can get you in trouble with the registration dept. so beware. The stock axles, since they are in the same league of the Dana44, can only safely go with 33" tires max( but you can ,i assume go for 35" since there is not as much power developed to break the axles, but that too depends on how easy you are with that skinny pedal), without much chances of breakage, if hardcore offroading is what you are planning for. If you want these just for show, they can go with even 40" tires. Either ways, going in for bigger tires, defeats the basic point of buying a diff-locked axled vehicle since you'll have to upgrade it another axle anyhow. Also , there are no stronger axles available in India. Yes ,a Tata 407 axle is stronger but it has a differnt lug pettern, so finding a wheel for it is difficult, and there are no hubs and disc brakes available to do anything about it. Besides , it a heavy axle, so ride quality would be much like a tractor,lol.

2)Suspension- If tall and skinny is fine with you, then you can easile put in 33" without much lift, but wider or even taller tires and you'll need loads of lift. Don't count so much on body lift, 2-3" is the max you would want to go. because body lift's in general weaken's the joints of the body with the frame. There's a video somewhere in youtube where while rescuing a body-lifted wrangler from muck, the stupid guy harnessed the lead to the body, resulting in the entire body shearing off and pulled away from the rest of the jeep.
Then again, lots of suspension lift and your high-centered. The Gurkha wheel guards has have enough of a hollow to warrent more travel for stock wheels ,but not much more, so lifting it would be necessary, but how much depends of the tire specs and the terrian you chose.
Ofcourse, off-road shocks would be necessary, but the suspenion lift, especially since the front is independent would be a little difficult, because there are no aftermarket longer A-arms available for the trax, leaving you with no choice but to use a solid axle. So again, a lot depends of what tire sizes you would want to go with.

So a gurkha and 33" tires, and you would not need much more. But going in for larger tires, then buying a gurkha for the job would not make any sense, since you would be changin so many things(axles, suspension, etc) that buying another vehicle, which already had a solid axle set, would actually be cheaper and safer.
There's much more, but that can only be said once the your basic motive for the mod and what you want to achieve with it can be understood more clearly.

3) The gearbox and the transfer case are good enough for what they're doing, but since nobody's tried modding that motor, so it not known if its strong enough for making more power without breaking something. And since its an electronic motor, its all the more difficult.
Producing more power from a diesel is not very difficult. Ofcouse you would have to go for a lower compression ratio(to get more mixture in there,. It the opposite of petrol non-turbo motors, where compression ratio is incresed for more power), and porting if you are looking for extreme power, but a reasonable about of power can be made by increasing the amout of fuel deleivered and using a bigger turbo and intercooler, for chucking in more air. The turbo part is the most difficult, and has to be very minutely calculated, since using a larger turbo for more air and you may get higher Hp, but you will increase turbo-lag with virtually no pick-up, made worse by the fact that the trax fuel pumps have no AFC to counter turbo-lag( the pump and tubo as stock are co-ordinated as such that there minimum lag, but the moment you change things, you would loose the balance), and a smaller turbo will get you lots of pickup with no turbo lag, but you loose the higher end, and not to mention lots of added heat that would need to be dessipated, so the cooling sytem to would have to be upgraded. By this ,you would increase low end torque but not much of a differene to the HP.
Changing the motor, and again it beats the purpose of buying a new vehicle, not to mention registration trouble.

4) the other mods , like skid plates, etc come later and can be done anytime. Besides, here are ppl in this forum that have already done things like mounting skid plates, winches and the works so they have lots of knowhow, and can best help you.
Hope that helps,
Bikram

[Jeeper]

Thanks a lot Bikram,

Let me interpret my understanding in simple language.

I did study Gama for reference as no Gurkha was available with dealer to ensure potential fixing of 33” incher in Gurkha. I agree 33” incher can be fitted with minimum modification and prefer to use wider tyre that might require some attachment to fix or need to go for off-centre bolting flange rim.

Suspension: in all case front suspension strengthening is required to tackle the amount of torture and if the Gurkha body clamps are same as of the Gama than it’s a weak link as the clamp gauge seems to be less than 14 gauge (2 mm) thick.

Now coming to basic concern weight to power ratio and it seems only way to counter it is by installing Force Lorry engine (Pet name given by 4X4 Addict) TD 3250 FTI Engine but how far it will satisfy the concern and if any disadvantage apart from noise & vibration. Fixing the 3250 FTI in Gurkha engine bay doesn’t seem to be an issue

Looking at the picture would like to evaluate all available option once again.

1) Gurkha (60HP) with 33” wheels upgraded for more weight to power ratio.
2) Rally prepared 1.6L Gypsy(102HP) with diff. locks & large - wide tyres
3) Tata Xenon / Safari (140HP) got reasonable weight to power ratio. Need to replace stock wheels suitable to tackle extra mass & weight for extreme condition. Such case have to live with ELSD as don’t see sense in switching it.

In summery building on good machine seems to be a tough task. Hope to find way out.

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[Brutus]

You still have to tell us how roughly you intend to use the vehicle and what kind of terrian do you want it to excell in. Parameters like suspension lift, and wheel travel does matter, so its necessary. If you want it just for show, then we can ponk in the largest tires on the stock axles.

I think a little body-lifting and a 33" would fit nice and clean. Since the stock tires are about 31.5'' to 32'' in height, so you would gain only about half an inch of ground clearance. Going taller may not only be tougher for your axles ,but also more importantly the brakes, especially since the rear is a Drum, and neither are the front ones vented(not sure though), to easily cool them, so that would amount to a lot of stress on the brakes.
I always though the front A-arms look rather weak, but since it involves lots of things like design architecture, material strength, taper, welding technique, etc, so its very difficult for us to estimate how strong it can be. But in either case, if you would have to change the front for a solid axle setup, i dont see any point in buying a force, since there are other vehicles with a solid axle front setup, let alone a new vehicle.

Next, the Om616 diff-locked Gurkha comes with 5.3:1 something final drive ratio, with the motor producing its max power at about 4000rpm. I don't know if they still supply the diff-locked version with the same engine or do they provide TD2650 FTI . The diff-lock fitted in the Gurkha(another reason for you to buy one), is a typical dog-clutch carrier housing, like used in probably all military vehicles around the world. In this setup, the carrier housing engages with the diff-lock sleeve, so its not at all like the other after-market diff-locks, that have these sort of ring contraptions to engage with the carrier gears,not the housing. So unlike the after-market ones, the carrier housing matters a lot in the locking process.
Now, generally every carrier assembly has carrier breaks allowing it to use a certain range of ratios( for i.e- Crown/pinions amounting to ratios of 5.375:1, 4.88:1 could be fitted in the same carrier housing, while any other ratio would need a different carrier housing). If the diff-locked version comes with the same engine as it earlier did, or if the new engine produces power at about 4000rpm, the same as the old one did, then it would be having the same ratio of 5.3:1. But if they provide the TD2650FTI, which produces max power ar 3200 rpm and is governed within the next couple of hundred RPM's, then you might be in luck as they might have changed the final drive ratios.
The reason why i am particularily specifying this is that if the stock engine max. power Rpms are at about 4000rpm, and there are no other engine options available with lower rpm settings, then using a TD 3250 FTI, which is redlined at about 3400rpm, would only be able to get you about 72% of the earlier top speed, unless you change the Final drive crown/pinion ratios. Now since the carrier of the diff-locked tempo is different from the others, i really dont know if there are any other ratios available that could fit in the same carrier, because no other carrier would not work at its place.
If the Diff-locked force already comes with the low rpm engine, then you got absolutely nothing to worry about, since they factory might have already supplied it with a Higher crown/pinion ratio.

Coming to the Gypsy now, i feel there are other people of the board that know more about this vehicle, therefore they can help you better. All said and done, the gypsy has a very weak front birfield that packs up with even 33" tires, but there are options availableto rectify that. Since the gypsy is a light vehicle, even 35" boggers and a V8 can handle them with just an open knuckle Dana44. Using this same setup, and with the same axles on a heavier vehicle could get you some axle minced meat pretty quickly.

The Xenon is a heavy vehicle with Dana44's, so fitting larger tires would be a problem. Besides, you would have to cut-up the wheel arches, to fit even a slightly larger tire, since its already so tight. Then again, body-lift would be an issue, and suspension lift would be possible only if you could find someone with the general know-how and great engeeniering and mathematics skills to calculate the right specs for a longerA-arm. As for the option of using a solid front end, then keep in mind the chassis was specifically designed for an independent suspension, therefore the front end of the side-rails is so low relatively from the rear end, that you would have to use a lot of lifting to get even slight articulation levels.

[boudhitree]

Being a Gurkha owner , I keep checking this thread often.

The Gurkha has consistently got me to where I need to , definitely may not be rally material as it is , but a reliable workhorse.

regards
Flickr: Boudhi Tree's Photostream

[MileCruncher]

Has the Judo been renamed as GAMA? And could anyone through a bit more light on the prices of the GAMA/Judo 4X4.

Cheers

[H3LIOS]

Originally Posted by MileCruncher

Has the Judo been renamed as GAMA? And could anyone through a bit more light on the prices of the GAMA/Judo 4X4.

Cheers

The Trax Judo is not produced anymore. The GAMA is physically the same as Judo with a few small differences. Mechanically, the biggest difference is the engine. Judo had the 90HP OM616 IDI engine, while the GAMA comes with a 60HP DI engine. Also Judo 4x4 came with front & rear differential locks, but the Gama 4x4 has no diff locks.

The MRP of a Gama 4x4 is Rs 5.95 lakhs... if you find a dealer willing to book it for you. And the vehicle delivery will take a couple of months (70 - 90 days is what I was told). Also please note that the Gama 4x4 does not have either AC or power steering.

Cheers.

[MileCruncher]

Thanks Helios.

Just went through their product brochure and the only thing that came to my mind is "WHAT A WASTE" of such a competent vehicle called the JUDO.

[USR]

Thanx Dude,
Really appreciated your suggestions……. I also think it’s not worth buying a pickup truck. I asked force dealers for an 4*4 option and they just laughed they are not even giving this option in Trax Gama(that is what they told me). I think I will have to go for a juggaru JEEP L. As my DAD was in army I have asked him to get an MM550 from Disposal.. Will get it for 40K. And I guess with all customizing and everything will come to 1.50L.
The only problem is I can do Off Roding with my jeep but the question will it be able to take me to mountains.

Also If all you people could suggest what should I keep in my mind while getting the engine overall.

Originally Posted by vinod_nookala

USR,
I have driven a single cab pickup of trax. I must say that it is very comfortable for a pickup and far better than a Mahindra pick up single cab. Go for it if you have loads of patience to wait for a 4wd version. Without diff locks it is useless. With diff locks the waiting can be agonising and price well above other pickups in the market even with 4wd!

[007 Bond]

Well 4x4 in Gama is available but without AC & PS, also 4x4 is very basic setup without differential locks. But if you have budget go for Gurkha. It is really competent. Also all the reviews which we have points towards it as a front runner for a genuine off roader available in the country.

As I am in daily touch with this company.. on overall force motors... there is a sea change in viewing towards customers which will take time for actual customers to feel. But a change is there definitely.

Originally Posted by USR

Thanx Dude,
Really appreciated your suggestions……. I also think it’s not worth buying a pickup truck. I asked force dealers for an 4*4 option and they just laughed they are not even giving this option in Trax Gama(that is what they told me). I think I will have to go for a juggaru JEEP L. As my DAD was in army I have asked him to get an MM550 from Disposal.. Will get it for 40K. And I guess with all customizing and everything will come to 1.50L.
The only problem is I can do Off Roding with my jeep but the question will it be able to take me to mountains.

Also If all you people could suggest what should I keep in my mind while getting the engine overall.

[Jeeper]

Brutus,

Doesn't seem getting through off this.

working out on getting a rally prepared Gypsy with inbuilt 1.6L engine, Hope to get positive response from Maruti Suzuki.

Project Gurkha is on hold till company introduces OM 611 in it.

May God control the corporate involvement in bureaucracy and imply some light import laws so we motorist can have excess to essential off road parts, kits, spares, etc.....

Cheers,

[gotzuk]

Originally Posted by Jeeper

working out on getting a rally prepared Gypsy with inbuilt 1.6L engine, Hope to get positive response from Maruti Suzuki.

Are you planning to get a rally preppared Gypsy with 1.6 engine from the factory?
Maruti doesn't do it but you can give it a shot though.