[Guite]

Originally Posted by sai_ace

I am glad you are not looking at a soundbar. No soundbar can match up to even a basic stereo set up.

I recently auditioned this pair of speakers and was very very impressed. Crisp across all frequencies - https://avstore.in/products/definiti...hnology-bp9040

This tower speaker with inbuilt subwoofer is very interesting. However it is powered. Is there any tower speaker out there with passive woofer which can give close to same performance as an active subwoofer?

I use two front tower speaker pair, whose frequency response as per the product data sheet is from 40 hz to 20 khz. At the lower end it is just 20 hz short of full range. But it does not produce as deep a bass as an active subwoofer. What gives?

[sai_ace]

Originally Posted by Guite

This tower speaker with inbuilt subwoofer is very interesting. However it is powered. Is there any tower speaker out there with passive woofer which can give close to same performance as an active subwoofer?

I use two front tower speaker pair, whose frequency response as per the product data sheet is from 40 hz to 20 khz. At the lower end it is just 20 hz short of full range. But it does not produce as deep a bass as an active subwoofer. What gives?

I can think of this - https://www.themasterswitch.com/review-svs-ultra-towers

But I'm not sure they can replace 'woofers'.

[Turbanator]

Originally Posted by manishalive

I have a living room which is 22' x 15' and the TV unit to sofa / couch distance is 10~12 feet. I am currently renovating the drawing room with TV unit for the 55 inch that we have. The budget is Bose level but if things are really great can go for setup in instalments.

You have a great room. Consider getting a projector/ screen and some 5-7 channel amplifier. If you are looking at something good quality, look at Anthem. This guy in Delhi ( used to be active here on the Car Auto thread before- member)

https://theaudio.co

The store in Pune is also very good, but you will need to negotiate prices on phone/ in person.

[sandeepmohan]

Originally Posted by Guite

Is there any tower speaker out there with passive woofer which can give close to same performance as an active subwoofer?

No.

That is called a Passive Radiator. They are undriven woofer units, using cabinet pressure generated by the driven or active woofer to move the passive radiator, which in turn "enhances" bass response. You'll find these on speakers like the Kef Q900, etc. Even though this is a large speaker, it has two passive radiators in front. There are a number of loudspeakers that take this approach, however, they cannot replace a sub woofer.

Originally Posted by Guite

I use two front tower speaker pair, whose frequency response as per the product data sheet is from 40 hz to 20 khz. At the lower end it is just 20 hz short of full range. But it does not produce as deep a bass as an active subwoofer. What gives?

Most specification data are measurements from anechoic room, which works great for marketing. Not in the real world. If your loudspeaker uses anything <6" driver, going down to 40hz is wishful thinking in the real world. Bass response has a lot to do with the room too. Deep bass can be achieved only with a sub woofer, maybe you need a couple of them, depending on your room size, treatment and layout. The alternative is a speaker with a giant 15" driver. Most of us don't have the room for such a large speaker.

[inwester]

Quick question to the home audio pros here.

I'm trying to figure out whether I should go with a traditional home theater set up for the theater room in our new home in India. The home theater room about 525 cm x 401 cm ~ 17'3" x 13'2" ~ 226 sq ft in dimensions.

Instead of doing the projector + screen set up I went with a 75" Samsung TV (which comes with Q-Symphony feature). After reading the reviews and a doing bit of research, I selected a compatible soundbar Samsung HW-Q990C, which comes around 1 lakh rupees and can be locally sourced in Kochi, Kerala easily. I'm a bit worried about the connection dropout issues with wirelessly connecting all the components in the Samsung setup.

Should I ditch the soundbar route and go the traditional AV Receiver + 5.1 speaker system? From looking at the prices, seems like I can't really get it under 3 lakhs for a good setup. For reference, what I have here in the US is Denon AVR-X4400H + Klipsch Reference 5.1.2 speaker setup. Just added a sample setup in Amazon.in cart to see how much will it come to - Denon AVR-X2800H + Polk Audio Signature Elite ES60+ES35+ES20+HTS12, comes to around 3.13 lakhs.

Does it make sense at 3x the cost? What would be the pros/cons? Any advice will be appreciated, thanks in advance!

[Guite]

Originally Posted by sandeepmohan

No.

That is called a Passive Radiator. They are undriven woofer units, using cabinet pressure generated by the driven or active woofer to move the passive radiator, which in turn "enhances" bass response.

I have a small Sonos Bluetooth speaker which uses this passive radiator concept to generate more bass. It sounds hollow. I am not expecting an 8" driver level of bass, but for it's driver size the bass could have been more authentic. Instead it sounded hollow and fake.

Originally Posted by inwester

For reference, what I have here in the US is Denon AVR-X4400H + Klipsch Reference 5.1.2 speaker setup. Just added a sample setup in Amazon.in cart to see how much will it come to - Denon AVR-X2800H + Polk Audio Signature Elite ES60+ES35+ES20+HTS12, comes to around 3.13 lakhs.

You are used to separates. Are you sure you would like "readymade" soundbars? I have not used these soundbar plus woofer combination speakers, and I am not familiar with it. However it seems to be tailor fit for all, plug and play. No custom calibration for your room, and no custom setup to your heart's content. Maybe I am wrong.

I recently got the Denon X2800H for about 10k less than Amazon.in, from a local dealer. If you search and find out local dealers, you can have substantial saving. Indiamart.com is a good place to search for brick and mortar shops.

[1:1]

Originally Posted by inwester

Does it make sense at 3x the cost? What would be the pros/cons? Any advice will be appreciated, thanks in advance!

For the size of your room the speakers you have choose will mostly fit perfectly. Prices of AVR and yet quiet crazy, speakers are better now so cost wise its fine.
regarding 3x the cost rest assure it would sound 10X better than any sound bar.

For reference, I had demoed my (desktop) super basic speaker from MICCA (costing 8K) and a tiny AIYIMA T9 amp to my sis who has a Sony 5.1 sound bar with dedicated surround speakers. She just asked me to leave the setup at her home and has completely stopped using the crappy soundbar.

[sandeepmohan]

Originally Posted by Guite

I have a small Sonos Bluetooth speaker which uses this passive radiator concept to generate more bass.

Most portable or smart speakers use this sort of method for bass enhancement, else its impossible to generate any bass from a couple of 3" drivers squeezed into a cabinet thats <10" small. A passive radiator is the only way to go. They work okay for close range, low volume listening. Once you crank of the volume, they fall apart. Its here where they cannot match a full size speaker but then again, the purpose is different. Fidelity isn't the priority.

JBL's Boombox 2 uses several passive bass radiators and to good effect. There are videos showing you a tear down of these units. If you put aside any critical listening, they are actually quite impressive for the amount of bass they can push from some a small package.

[n_aditya]

Originally Posted by inwester

Should I ditch the soundbar route and go the traditional AV Receiver + 5.1 speaker system? From looking at the prices, seems like I can't really get it under 3 lakhs for a good setup. For reference, what I have here in the US is Denon AVR-X4400H + Klipsch Reference 5.1.2 speaker setup. Just added a sample setup in Amazon.in cart to see how much will it come to - Denon AVR-X2800H + Polk Audio Signature Elite ES60+ES35+ES20+HTS12, comes to around 3.13 lakhs.

Does it make sense at 3x the cost? What would be the pros/cons? Any advice will be appreciated, thanks in advance!

I would suggest you go the wired route and with the AVR+ 5.1 speaker setup.

I recently picked up the Onkyo TX-SR494 (7.2 Ch AVR supporting Dolby Atmos) and a Yamaha speaker set up - floor standing front speakers (Yamaha NS F-71), Yamaha NS-P51 Centre & Surround package, JBL A100P Subwoofer. For the height speakers (Atmos) I picked up the BIC America Adatto DV52 model.

I was super confused with what speakers to get but after I auditioned the Yamaha's, I looked no further. The sound is crystal clear and the JBL sub is super punchy (set to -4dB as anything more and the windows start to rattle).

Before you buy, audition a few brands and then decide. The individual setup like this instead of a soundbar will allow you to add or upgrade your speakers at a later time.

Hope this helps.

[Bass&Trouble]

Originally Posted by Guite

Is there any tower speaker out there with passive woofer which can give close to same performance as an active subwoofer?

I use two front tower speaker pair, whose frequency response as per the product data sheet is from 40 hz to 20 khz. At the lower end it is just 20 hz short of full range. But it does not produce as deep a bass as an active subwoofer. What gives?

When the subwoofer driver in the tower speaker is separately powered, usually it is powered by an amplifier vastly more powerful than what can be provided by any AVR out there. Its not the frequency response which is as notable here as the levels at which the subwoofer section is able to play when driven by this much more power. Our hearing system also prefers a sound curve with a bit of boost on the bass but audiophile tower speaker manufacturers would design the speakers to have a flat response.
This disproportionately higher amount of bass might be a bit much for audiophile stereo listening, but is great for party or home theatre use. You can also buy a far cheaper AVR with much lesser power than you would otherwise need for powering floorstanders with large sized passive bass drivers.

[sandeepmohan]

Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble

When the subwoofer driver in the tower speaker is separately powered, usually it is powered by an amplifier vastly more powerful than what can be provided by any AVR out there. You can also buy a far cheaper AVR with much lesser power than you would otherwise need for powering floorstanders with large sized passive bass drivers.

There are very few loudspeakers that have a active amplifier for the bass section or sub woofer. 99% of loudspeakers designed for home use work on a passive concept.

To say that you can get away with a cheap AVR or any amplifier is incorrect. You still need quality power to drive the speaker, even if the bass is offloaded to a external sub woofer that has its own amplifier. For instances where you do not use a sub woofer, the expectation is that the main speaker has to deliver bass. If the AVR or amplifier cannot feed it the power it needs, you end up with poor low end response or worse, distortion. It all needs to be matched based on equipment being used and the area you're trying to fill with sound.

[ecenandu]

Originally Posted by ecenandu

I just went for the Arc now, will be adding Era 100s next and later a sub mini.

Sounds decent with the Arc alone, definitely missing out on the base because of not having a subwoofer.

I got the Era 100s and the sub mini, happy with the performance of the setup.

The sub mini addressed the lack of deep bass from the Arc, the Era 100s as surrounds now makes immersive soundstage. Maybe it is the shape of our hall, I don't get the surround soundstage from the Arc alone.

[sgmuser]

Originally Posted by Guite

This tower speaker with inbuilt subwoofer is very interesting. However it is powered. Is there any tower speaker out there with passive woofer which can give close to same performance as an active subwoofer?

I use two front tower speaker pair, whose frequency response as per the product data sheet is from 40 hz to 20 khz. At the lower end it is just 20 hz short of full range. But it does not produce as deep a bass as an active subwoofer. What gives?

Heads up. Don't buy definitive technology speakers with powered sub woofer series 9020, 9040, 9060 etc. I had 9020 and both the amps simply failed one after another within warranty. But def tech refused to fix and asked me 500 USD to check and fix. Speakers itself cost 1200 or usd. I couldn't do anything with it, brought it to India (was in Oman) and sold it for peanuts in Chennai. The guy purchased is actually a hifi technician mentioned that he had done the same fixing for atleast four sets of 9020 and it's a manufacturing issue. So, generally better to go with a passive speakers.

[Bass&Trouble]

Originally Posted by sandeepmohan

There are very few loudspeakers that have a active amplifier for the bass section or sub woofer. 99% of loudspeakers designed for home use work on a passive concept.

I didnt say there are many. The OP was wondering how a speaker with active sub built in would compare to a passive speaker and there is no doubt that the former would have massive bass response compared to the latter.

Originally Posted by sandeepmohan

To say that you can get away with a cheap AVR or any amplifier is incorrect. You still need quality power to drive the speaker, even if the bass is offloaded to a external sub woofer that has its own amplifier. For instances where you do not use a sub woofer, the expectation is that the main speaker has to deliver bass. If the AVR or amplifier cannot feed it the power it needs, you end up with poor low end response or worse, distortion. It all needs to be matched based on equipment being used and the area you're trying to fill with sound.

Dont know what your definition of cheap is, I didnt refer to the quality just the output, watts. If you had a huge floorstander with a large passive sub in-built, let say like a B&W 801, an AVR wouldnt even be able to do justice to it. You would need a mighty external power amp. But if the inbuilt sub was taken care of with its own dedicated power amp then you sure could use a relatively lower power amp to take care of just the mid-hi section and that translates into a lower priced amp, aka cheaper. The pedigree of the amp still could be the same.

[sandeepmohan]

Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble

Dont know what your definition of cheap is, I didnt refer to the quality just the output, watts. But if the inbuilt sub was taken care of with its own dedicated power amp then you sure could use a relatively lower power amp to take care of just the mid-hi section and that translates into a lower priced amp, aka cheaper. The pedigree of the amp still could be the same.

I mean the same. The quality of power matters (not just external build or visual appeal) and thats what makes the difference between a AV Receiver versus a high quality dedicated amplifier.

Speaking to your specific example of driving an 801, sure, an AVR would hardly wake one up or bring out its true potential. You can always drive it with an external power amplifier if you prefer. However, in the application of an AVR (which I assume will be used 99% for Home theater), you have a dedicated sub woofer anyway to take care of low frequency.

Its easier to drive the entire passive loudspeaker from a single dedicated power amplifier than focus only the bass section or drivers from the amplifier (or bi-amping the setup). I am not sure if there is any AVR out there that can send a low pass feed through their main speaker pre-outs (not sub pre out).

A loudspeaker like the 801 (...and many others of its kind and class), need solid power regardless of the frequency range. Its not enough to focus power on only the bass section. You'll end up with an imbalance. 9 out of 10 users of such speakers almost always end up using a sub woofer for low end, even after feeding a few hundred watts of power to the main speaker.

Anyway, we both have our experience and views about this.