[400notout]

Originally Posted by pgsagar

And as though to prove its detractors right, Tata Motors has been sleeping like Rip Van Winnkle. They ruled the roost with Sumo once. They just handed that pie to M&M. Safari capitulated to Scorpio eons ago. One of the most important thing Tata needs to do is to make cars which should not even remotely resemble Indica/Indigo/Manza/Vista - neither in looks , nor in names. These brands are finished. No point flogging a dead horse. But I still see shades of these cars in Bolt/Zest in appearance. Hence, will they succeed? I seriously doubt.

I agree with you in lots of ways but one. They did lose out to M&M in a big way. You missed where XUV500 killed the Aria or maybe Aria killed itself. But that was then. And Its true, not just you, Bolt/Zest does have shades of the indica/vista as its just a facelift, But its an extreme one at that. I never thought that the Indica could ever look like this!!! There are influences from JLR and they are pretty much welcome too. I guess they are pretty much making the right moves, at the time of posting this there are about 570 replies and a 238,159 views on this thread. And you have to see the tone of people change, once these cars were revealed at the auto-expo. Even the Tata motors thread on the Auto-expo 2014 section received maximum views, this is a sign of greater curiosity amongst bhpians about the cars. There are many waiting for its launch, price, reviews, test drive before they decide or even form an opinion about it. There are a few like me who love the design and are very positive about it.

[sourabhzen]

Originally Posted by pgsagar

Coming to Tatas, I have been an ardent fan of brand Tata since before they got into auto business. And I used to vehemntly argue with anyone who tried to put that brand down. When I want Tata to exit car making business, it is out of respect for a brand which I do not want to see go down. I feel bowing out gracefully is better than being a laughing stock of everyone. For those who ask, laughing stock? Where? Well, we can see several posts here devoted to deriding Tata cars.

On the contrary, I want them to fight back. 'Bowing out gracefully' will be a cowardly act. Who is not a laughing stock? Name a company that is not criticized here.

Originally Posted by pgsagar

One of the most important thing Tata needs to do is to make cars which should not even remotely resemble Indica/Indigo/Manza/Vista - neither in looks , nor in names. These brands are finished. No point flogging a dead horse. But I still see shades of these cars in Bolt/Zest in appearance. Hence, will they succeed? I seriously doubt.

Aesthetically, Indica is not a bad looking car at all. Old - yes, but not ugly. personally I liked the appearance of the Bolt & Zest and I believe that they will succeed, provided they are launched in time.

[harry10]

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/34345543.cms

Seems like they are trying their best to make both the cars a big success.

[pgsagar]

As much as I would love to see them fight back, I do not see that happening. I am not like once-a-fanboy, now-a-harsh-critic. The ground realities have to be taken into reckoning. It is not alarming to see a bunch of teambhpians or any other group of auto enthusiasts huddling together and laughing at Tata cars ( because compared to huuuuge population of this country, enthusiasts are in a tiny minority ). But it is the perception of general populace that is worrisome. I see same perception among people of all walks, cabbies, villagers/small-town folks etc. that Tata cars are no good. Whoever I speak with seems to hold this opinion. This forms the basis for my speculation. I may be wrong. Hell, I would love to be. But unfortunately, I just see their sales tumbling and hitting a new-low with each passing month.

[RSR]

pgsagar, thank you for summing up exactly what I wanted to say in post #574.

Originally Posted by pgsagar

As much as I would love to see them fight back, I do not see that happening. I am not like once-a-fanboy, now-a-harsh-critic. The ground realities have to be taken into reckoning. It is not alarming to see a bunch of teambhpians or any other group of auto enthusiasts huddling together and laughing at Tata cars (because compared to huuuuge population of this country, enthusiasts are in a tiny minority). But it is the perception of general populace that is worrisome. I see same perception among people of all walks, cabbies, villagers/small-town folks etc. that Tata cars are no good. Whoever I speak with seems to hold this opinion.

Yes, that is what I've been trying to say in my previous post. As much of an improvement over their previous offerings the Bolt and Zest are, it is not going to be easy for Tata to make them fly off the shelves. Monthly sales will definitely improve when compared to the paltry sales of the Vista & Manza of course, but those who think the Bolt & Zest are going to set the sales charts on fire are hugely optimistic, and it looks like Tata themselves are also quite optimistic if one were to believe the news report about the hiring spree.

Team-BHPians mocking or bashing Tata Motors is nothing for Tata to worry about, as you mentioned. It's not only about the minuscule numbers, but every brand (from Maruti Suzuki at the top to Mitsubishi at the bottom) is routinely bashed here on various threads. If the bashing seems a bit more for Tata, it is because of their rapid slide. No other brand has seen such a decline, except for Škoda perhaps, and one doesn't even need to mention the extent of Škoda-bashing. There was even someone (permanently banned now) who created a thread claiming he and his brother bought two new Škoda Octavias and suffered massive problems with both. It turned out that he had never even owned a Škoda car. That is the extent to which bashers can go. So Tata are by no means alone in this.

The general public's perception about Tata cars is quite pathetic as you mentioned. It's not going to be easy to change this perception in a jiffy, if at all. The cab/taxi market for cars (not UVs) was once a near Tata monopoly. Indicas and Indigos (including XLs, CSes and Marinas) used to completely dominate this scene. Now Tata Motors are only another player in an evenly distributed market, with Toyota (Etios & Liva), Ford (Classic & Figo), Maruti Suzuki (Dzire Tour) and Mahindra (Verito/Logan) all claiming an equal or bigger share of the pie. The situation is worse in the fleet market for UVs, where Tata have been reduced to being an also ran.

The Bolt & Zest face a huge task ahead. Tata may have pioneered the sub-4m sedan, but this space is quite crowded now (with more waiting to join), and the Zest may not have the smooth sailing that the folks at Tata expect. It's even tougher for the Bolt, because from the looks of it, it seems like the Bolt is going to move half-a-segment up. From competing in the segment of the Ritz, it's now going to move into that of the Swift.

Optimism and supporting a desi brand are excellent ideals, but the ground realities are quite harsh. This is what I meant by saying the game has moved on.

Where I differ with you is that you believe they should gracefully quit the scene. I think they need to do radical things now, and go into areas where there is almost zero competition. They have already developed the prototypes (and even competed in an event) for the EVs and they should look to put them into production as soon as possible. A radical shift to EVs and plug-in hybrids is the need of the hour for Tata Motors.

The Reva failed because it was expensive and more importantly, it was not practical at all. The E2O may be more practical than the Reva, but it still does not come close to the practicality of a normal car, and is quite expensive too. The upcoming Verito Electric may prove to be the most practical of the lot. Tata must beat Mahindra by coming out with practical and affordable EVs. With the Nano and Bolt EVs, they already have the shared infrastructure for the chassis and other components. Only the electric power-train and battery will add to the cost. Bring in leasing programs for the Lithium battery, and they can market the Nano EV and Bolt EV at reasonable prices. Completely practical and affordable EVs are bound to succeed when compared to the Reva and E2O. Perhaps that's why Mahindra are already planning to release the Verito Electric soon?

Of course, even practical all-electric cars will have some limitations, and Tata must offer plug-in hybrids for those who want more. Even the BMW i3 has a plug-in hybrid option for those who want more practicality (read as range). Tata Motors are a company who can make the required investment in electric and plug-in hybrid technology.

The bottom line is, the ground realities are very harsh for Tata Motors. In the current environment, they can succeed only by going in a radical direction, where there is almost no competition at the moment.

[Bhargava]

Originally Posted by pgsagar

As much as I would love to see them fight back, I do not see that happening. I am not like once-a-fanboy, now-a-harsh-critic. The ground realities have to be taken into reckoning. It is not alarming to see a bunch of teambhpians or any other group of auto enthusiasts huddling together and laughing at Tata cars ( because compared to huuuuge population of this country, enthusiasts are in a tiny minority ). But it is the perception of general populace that is worrisome. I see same perception among people of all walks, cabbies, villagers/small-town folks etc. that Tata cars are no good. Whoever I speak with seems to hold this opinion. This forms the basis for my speculation. I may be wrong. Hell, I would love to be. But unfortunately, I just see their sales tumbling and hitting a new-low with each passing month.

To dive out of this downward spin, Tata Motors has embarked on the 'Horizonext' strategy which reportedly has product pipeline planned till the year 2020. The first 'truly' re-designed and re-engineered products under this strategy (the Bolt and the Zest) have not hit the market yet. I feel that it is too early to speculate or comment on the long-term prospects of one of the oldest and biggest automobile manufacturers in India. On top of that, Tata Motors has deep pockets (Tata Sons); and some of the finest technical backing (Land Rover and Jaguar) - to help navigate through these turbulent times.

I don't mean to sound philosophical, but according to some universal laws, 'what goes around always comes around' - and Tata Motors has always been a good corporate citizen and I just wish the very best for the company.

[black_rider]

Spotted this camouflaged Zest in Ecospace, Bangalore today.

[girimajiananth]

Originally Posted by black_rider

Spotted this camouflaged Zest in Ecospace, Bangalore today.

I saw the same car near Atthibele , I guess it was broken down and was parked with hazard lights on with the right side lane. The driver was talking to someone with making big hand gestures. I was in a hurry to come back , otherwise I would ve taken some pictures at least.

[Latheesh]

Originally Posted by black_rider

Spotted this camouflaged Zest in Ecospace, Bangalore today.

I think there are two auto related companies in Ecospace; Cadence and Bosch.
Or
visiting some other companies?

[WorkingGuru]

Saw the Zest camouflaged stopped at the signal before Electronics City. It was going to take a U-Turn. Definitely has very good Ground Clearance. Waiting to drive & see how it handles.

[samschenker]

Originally Posted by Latheesh

I think there are two auto related companies in Ecospace; Cadence and Bosch.
Or
visiting some other companies?

Harman has an office in Ecospace and they are working on the head unit for zest /Bolt platform

[400notout]

Originally Posted by RSR

The Bolt & Zest face a huge task ahead. Tata may have pioneered the sub-4m sedan, but this space is quite crowded now (with more waiting to join), and the Zest may not have the smooth sailing that the folks at Tata expect. It's even tougher for the Bolt, because from the looks of it, it seems like the Bolt is going to move half-a-segment up. From competing in the segment of the Ritz, it's now going to move into that of the Swift.

Curious to know what gives you the feeling that Bolt/Zest wont live upto its given task?

Tata motors is expecting 10k more nos from the twins. I dont think thats overambitious. If any company (who's at their "tipping point") cannot expect their mass volume car to reach this mark, It rather stop manufacturing.

Agreed their sales have been slipping, but there are still a lot of Tatas on the road today. They already have a huge presence on the roads all they need is a product which works. Designs are subjective, but otherwise too these cars look promising, It would be another matter altogether if it doesnt drive well enough. But I guess whatever it is, it would be a definite improvement on the Vista atleast.

The storme was 5 yrs too late, they overpriced the Aria, and "mis-marketed" the Nano. They are keen to rectify those mistakes. And to me they seem on course. I don't see any "Doom" here. Its just a matter of time, the sales of these cars will speak and it will speak in "volumes"

[Mad Max]

Originally Posted by samschenker

Harman has an office in Ecospace and they are working on the head unit for zest /Bolt platform

Nice! I really hope they'll load this car to the gills. The side profile looks very much like most other sub-4m sedans. Any idea when they are starting to offer test drives etc?

[safari_lover]

Originally Posted by black_rider

Spotted this camouflaged Zest in Ecospace, Bangalore today.

You have caught it at a perfect angle to give us the side profile of the car. In a way, it looks like the Fiesta Classic displaying the best proportions among all the mini sedans, IMO.

From whatever we know of it, TaMo hasn't held anything back from this car. This car has a huge potential to get Tata back on track. Hope it lives up to it.

[phamilyman]

I like what I see, but I would only buy it in its v2 only. To me there are two key failings within TATA and not the car. FWIW I found the Vista quite decent except the plastics.
a. After sales service quality
b. All around niggle-free experience and quality in spare parts

After my brother's 2006 Indica V2 petrol and BIL's 2010 Manza elan Diesel - I would pick the swift again in a heartbeat for not VFM but peace of mind.