[mallumowgli]

Another setback for Tata. How serious it would turn out to be depends on how critical the role of Ankush Arora was behind the 'super drive'

[safari_lover]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

Slightly OT. Its a good thing if company does a recall. It means company is honest and upfront. I can assure you Tata has silently changed many very critical parts in many months of production Tata Safari's without a "beep" or announcement.
Critical part designs seen to be failing in the field in a large percentage of cars were simply changed under the guise of "retro"

Staying OT for a little extra while. There are two different issues here. Recalling the vehicles for fixing faults and having the faults in the vehicles in the first place. I agree with the former being a good practice and we should be happy that many companies are doing this now in India.

But, I think, the original poster's intention was to point out that how a much venerable brand like Honda couldn't engineer/build a faultless brand new car, even with its decades of experience. While here we are going berserk at Tata Motors for having got the vinyl sheet/painting alignment incorrect on a test vehicle, the outrage pointed at Honda is conspicuous by its absence.

Coming to the launch of Zest and Bolt, the oft-repeated complaint about Tata vehicles is that they don't build their cars good enough. This very forum has many posts pointing that this isn't the case anymore. They are at par with their competition now. Another grouse is with regards to their ASS. Again, there are many posts on this forum and in the media to suggest that there's a genuine effort undertaken to overhaul this and the results are showing up as seen in few of the recent experiences of Tata vehicle owners on the forum. Taking these things and the information available about the Zest and Bolt into consideration, it is not unreasonable to be optimistic about the launch.

There's a difference between informed criticism and uninformed ranting. Almost on every Tata thread it is more of the later than the former.

[RSR]

Originally Posted by dmplog

Ankush Arora quits Tata Motors

Top executives quitting one company and joining another one is nothing new to the Indian automobile industry. It has been going on for quite a while now and we even have a thread on it.

This gentleman's exit, however, does raise a question or two. Why at this moment, when he is expected to lead the marketing efforts of two very crucial products (Bolt & Zest) for the company?

I think it is an effect of the management issues going on at Tata Motors, as mentioned in some previous posts. It's not so much as a question of individuals, as one of methods. The old guard in the management are quite used to their lethargic ways and non-customer focused attitude, having worked in the environment of their commercial vehicle business.

The late Karl Slym seems to have understood this, and he built a new core team of executives for the passenger vehicles business unit (who are more in tune with the needs and aspirations of car buyers). This was a very important part in his efforts to turn around the PV business.

With his sad and unfortunate loss, there seems to be a vacuum at the top, which has led to a clash between the old guard and the new team. Since Karl is not there to back the new guys, the old guard seem to be gaining the upper hand again.

Mr. Arora's exit could have been triggered by this. Again this kind of management exit is nothing new at Tata Motors. Outsiders (even dynamic guys with a very successful track record) always seem to have some issues with the ways of the existing management hierarchy at Tata Motors, leading to their resignation. Dr. Sumantran is another person who falls into this category, as is Mr. Forster. Both of them resigned from Tata Motors to seek greener pastures (at Ashok Leyland and Gordan Murray Design respectively).

This is another reason why Karl's loss will hurt Tata Motors quite badly in the long run. Unless of course, they can find another equally capable and dynamic guy like him.

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by safari_lover

There's a difference between informed criticism and uninformed ranting. Almost on every Tata thread it is more of the later than the former.

I would call it uninformed ranting if Bolt was the first car tata made.
But they made many iterations of indica's, 4 iterations of the Safari, and many of the Sumo too.
In each iteration they have proved that the cars have a higher reliability issues than competition.
So I would like to do "informed criticism". Do let me know which past Tata vehicle I should pick for "informed views".
Value for money should not come at the cost of reliability.
If Tata really things they have turned things around, then they should start offering 5 year warranties.
This is exactly what Hyundai had to do in the west to shake the image of "Manufacturer of pizza delivery junk" in the west.

When you are the underdog, you have to exceed the competition to come back in the race.
Would you go to the restaurant which has served you cockroaches in the meal four times in a a row after it undergoes renovation and claims to have fixed the issues? Or would you wait for public opinion.
Or maybe an offer "If you find a cockroach, we will give you free meals for a week"

Originally Posted by RSR

This is another reason why Karl's loss will hurt Tata Motors quite badly in the long run. Unless of course, they can find another equally capable and dynamic guy like him.

You post nails it. Really.
The rot is somewhere else. Tata always had the first mover products
1. The first spacious diesel hatch
2. The First SUV
3. the first comfortable people mover(as opposed to Armada and other such jugaads)
4. The first affordable diesel sedan

Tata seems to be "Bolt"ing the bar after the horse has left, and in the ranks, there is no Zest

[saket77]

Originally Posted by safari_lover

But, I think, the original poster's intention was to point out that how a much venerable brand like Honda couldn't engineer/build a faultless brand new car, even with its decades of experience. While here we are going berserk at Tata Motors for having got the vinyl sheet/painting alignment incorrect on a test vehicle, the outrage pointed at Honda is conspicuous by its absence.

On the onset, let me please clarify that I will not rate the Bolt or the Zest, esp. on quality control issues until they come from the production lines meant for sale to people. Given the track record of Tata since Indica pre-production period, they will improve the tidbits for sure. In case they fail to fix the issues later, then they will and *should* draw flak & criticism. But not now, from me.

The other point being discussed is the Honda recall or recalls by other manufacturers. The point I want to put forward is that these companies are producing so many models for so many years, but their recalls are in much small ratio to the models produced. But for Tata, that ratio is probably a tad too high to be acceptable. Be it the Indica, the Nano or the Safari. The Nano was probably never officially 'recalled'. It was given 'free updates' (whatever that means) but some very critical parts were changed. Mostly, the first lot owners often get the treatment of guinea pigs, hence, the skepticism is associated with Tata passenger cars. I sincerely hope the Bolt & Zest are well rounded cars from day 1 and change the image & fortune of TML.

Waiting for the launch and cannot wait for the TBHP official review. Being a Tata, an all new car, the Revotron, potential to be the game changer...these are spices enough for a great and interesting story.

[CARDEEP]

Time change direction in which the wind is flowing/ blowing... enough of Tata quality issues being discussed all over forum. Let the cars be launched to judge the leap on quality by the company.

Few pics of the Zest caught testing uncameoed by Powerdrift:

[Bhargava]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

Its a good thing if company does a recall. It means company is honest and upfront. Companies which do such recalls silently are unethical in my book. Hats of to companies who do recalls openly.

Tata Motors has made recalls in the past.

Originally Posted by saket77

The Nano was probably never officially 'recalled'

Tata Motors recalls, in the past, were published in the news papers quoting "Tata Motors has issued a recall" which makes it official.

News articles:

1. http://www.carblogindia.com/tata-man...h-replacement/
2. http://www.autoblog.com/2011/12/28/t...r-bad-starter/

Originally Posted by desdemona

The repetition of ancient stories, even if experienced first hand, is a good way to stop thinking in the present, and, better, to even stop others from being open-minded.

That's a nice point, desdemona.

<-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->

If we have any qualms about the the old or current generation TML vehicles, let's post them in the respective threads. This thread represents two of the new-generation TML vehicles designed by new teams. Bringing in negativity even before the cars are launched would unnecessarily dissuade members/readers. Every car has a unique set of advantages and disadvantages. Let the buyer use his/her discretion.

Past performance of a company is never an indicator of its future prospects, unless it is a food & beverages company. Technology based companies need to constantly innovate, track changes and make adjustments all along in order to thrive in the marketplace. Tata Motors may have slacked for a couple of years, but it had a glorious past as well. Tata Motors was the first Indian automobile manufacturer to have the state-of-the-art Paint Shop (Mercedes Benz India shared this paint shop for a couple of years) and a Crash Test Facility, in Pune. It was also the first Indian company to make indigenous SUV and passenger Car.

As I have always said, it was the aged and lethargic management at Tata Motors that has thrown the finely calibrated company (during the '90s) into chaos, now. Late Karl Slym roped in few young and able people into the some of the key management positions, and has infused the much need Vision, Energy and Passion into the company during his short stint at Tata Motors. Let us hope that Tata Motors builds on the strategy and scaffolding laid out by Karl.

[djpeesh]

Originally Posted by Bhargava

Tata Motors has made recalls in the past.


Tata Motors recalls, in the past, were published in the news papers quoting "Tata Motors has issued a recall" which makes it official.

News articles:

1. http://www.carblogindia.com/tata-man...h-replacement/
2. http://www.autoblog.com/2011/12/28/t...r-bad-starter/

The Nano recall was never a recall for fear of the impact of the word recall. It was a voluntary replacement or some such jargon.

Secondly, surely more than two models had issues that needed to be addressed through recalls. Instead, it was brushed under the carpet and replacements were made as and when the car came to the service station.

Past performance of a company is never an indicator of its future prospects, unless it is a food & beverages company.

As I have always said, it was the aged and lethargic management at Tata Motors that has thrown the finely calibrated company (during the '90s) into chaos, now.

While maybe in tech companies, in an automotive company, once you're in terminal decline only severe decisions can revive a company. For GM and Chrysler, they had to go into bankruptcy protection and with the help of government assistance, they revamped themselves.

Unfortunately, Tata isn't doing that fast enough.

Throughout this thread, people talk about the massive improvement in quality in Tata cars. According to both anecdotal as well as industry benchmark data, that's not true. And what may be good enough for Tata is hardly the industry benchmark today.

Don't believe me? Look at the JD Power initial quality survey and the vehicle dependability studies for 2013 attached below. Does Tata beat the industry benchmark for anything?

http://www.jdpower.com/press-release...lity-study-vds

http://autos.jdpower.com/content/pre...-study-iqs.htm

Nostalgia, as Baz Luhrmann once said, " is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it's worth"

Now, I promise to stop going off topic. Let's wait and see how the Bolt and the Zest do. I hope to be pleasantly surprised. Seriously, I'm cheering them on.

[Bhargava]

Originally Posted by djpeesh

The Nano recall was never a recall for fear of the impact of the word recall. It was a voluntary replacement or some such jargon.

Secondly, surely more than two models had issues that needed to be addressed through recalls. Instead, it was brushed under the carpet and replacements were made as and when the car came to the service station.




While maybe in tech companies, in an automotive company, once you're in terminal decline only severe decisions can revive a company. For GM and Chrysler, they had to go into bankruptcy protection and with the help of government assistance, they revamped themselves.

Unfortunately, Tata isn't doing that fast enough.

Throughout this thread, people talk about the massive improvement in quality in Tata cars. According to both anecdotal as well as industry benchmark data, that's not true. And what may be good enough for Tata is hardly the industry benchmark today.

Don't believe me? Look at the JD Power initial quality survey and the vehicle dependability studies for 2013 attached below. Does Tata beat the industry benchmark for anything?

http://www.jdpower.com/press-release...lity-study-vds

http://autos.jdpower.com/content/pre...-study-iqs.htm

Nostalgia, as Baz Luhrmann once said, " is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it's worth"

Now, I promise to stop going off topic. Let's wait and see how the Bolt and the Zest do. I hope to be pleasantly surprised. Seriously, I'm cheering them on.

Let us agree to disagree on some of the points. Choosing the next Managing Director for Tata Motors will be the inflection point.

[desdemona]

Originally Posted by djpeesh

Don't believe me? Look at the JD Power initial quality survey and the vehicle dependability studies for 2013 attached below. Does Tata beat the industry benchmark for anything?

http://www.jdpower.com/press-release...lity-study-vds

http://autos.jdpower.com/content/pre...-study-iqs.htm

Nostalgia, as Baz Luhrmann once said, " is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it's worth"

Now, I promise to stop going off topic. Let's wait and see how the Bolt and the Zest do. I hope to be pleasantly surprised. Seriously, I'm cheering them on.

Nostalgia is, and you can quote me, the regurgitation of old perceptions based on the unstoppable power of (market) herdthink, when reality MAY well have moved well on.

JD Power studies are not to be taken seriously, since they are subjectivist, i.e., entrenched herd-thinking double-standards are at play on the part of owners. Some owners look too critically and others not critically enough at their purchase and ownership experiences, based on their perceptions of brand notoriety/virtue.

Owners of a skinny tyred, tin can Honda City maybe report their delight to J D Power, until they have an accident whereupon they discover they've been sold an intrinsically deficient product. J D Power style surveys, just like political surveys, can never capture the latter 'reasoned, informed opinion' adequately.

None of this is to suggest that you are entirely wrong, far from it. Just that Tata always has offered great value even if what you say about them being rubbish when it comes to quality and reliability were true, which it is not.

Tata is currently trying to offer even more and better value with the Zest, Bolt, new Aria, Storme and Nexon. That is their calling in this market, dominated as it is by 2 or 3 East Asian firms that do emphatically NOT provide the value they are too easily seen to.

I have little doubt the Zest will be the best in its class, and the Bolt, near best. The Aria already is vastly better than the Innova, just as the Storme is I'd argue probably better than the Fortuner.

I know, I know: their image does not match these claims. Well, we should all at least give them the chance to bring that 'image' into line.

Let us see. I hope we do not see the current oligopoly of 3 East Asian mass market firms entrenching itself even further.

[Lalvaz]

Originally Posted by desdemona

I have little doubt the Zest will be the best in its class, and the Bolt, near best. The Aria already is vastly better than the Innova, just as the Storme is I'd argue probably better than the Fortuner.

Hi Desdemona, I've kept an open mind about the Bolt and the Zest, and am hoping they do well in terms of quality, reliability, fit and finish, ride quality, interiors etc.

However, I simply cannot stomach your statement on the Tata Aria being better than the Innova and the Storme being better than the Fortuner. I think even the Tata's will not make such a tall claim.

You only have to do a search on this forum for enough horror stories on the Aria. Not sure about the new Storme.

Please refrain from hyping the Aria and the Storme beyond a reasonable limit. It won't fly in a forum like Team BHP.

[guyfrmblr]

Spotted the Zest test mule at Hosur road this morning near Chandapura. It was in front of me from Bommasandra flyover to Chandapura flyover.

[Aditya]

In the build-up to the launch of its latest offerings, the Zest compact sedan and Bolt hatchback, Tata Motors has begun the process of ramping up its dealership network.

Link to Team-BHP News Article

[desdemona]

Originally Posted by Lalvaz

Hi Desdemona, I've kept an open mind about the Bolt and the Zest, and am hoping they do well in terms of quality, reliability, fit and finish, ride quality, interiors etc.

However, I simply cannot stomach your statement on the Tata Aria being better than the Innova and the Storme being better than the Fortuner. I think even the Tata's will not make such a tall claim.

You only have to do a search on this forum for enough horror stories on the Aria. Not sure about the new Storme.

Please refrain from hyping the Aria and the Storme beyond a reasonable limit. It won't fly in a forum like Team BHP.

Hi. Thanks for the reply.

I'd refer you to Autocar's recent review of the Aria. I'd also refer you to the Team-bhp review and ownership reviews of the Storme.

Let us just say that, very objectively: the Aria and Storme engine's more refined, the NVH is better, interior design and plastic quality is better, ride is better, as are equipment levels. And I am told the Storme's off-road abilities are superior to the Fortuner's. I've ridden in all four, and driven a couple. I believe the claim is fair. Consider how much more the Toyota-s cost, consider too that both the Innova and the Fortuner, essentially the same vehicle, are built on an ancient pickup truck chassis and architecture.

Your incredulity at my claim does suggest the degree to which our perceptions are influenced by, maybe even overwhelmed by image and brand power.

Anyway, I guess Tata do have a mighty tough task rebuilding their tarnished image.

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by desdemona

Hi. Thanks for the reply.

I'd refer you to Autocar's recent review of the Aria. I'd also refer you to the Team-bhp review and ownership reviews of the Storme.

Let us just say that, very objectively: the Aria and Storme engine's more refined, the NVH is better, interior design and plastic quality is better, ride is better, as are equipment levels. And I am told the Storme's off-road abilities are superior to the Fortuner's.

Storme is indeed the best iteration of the Safari from engineering standpoint.
The Zest and Bolt also show promise with a modern pleasing shape. I would have preferred them to be more radical to stand out from the gaggle of similar looking cars in the market.

However if you talk about plastic quality of Storme, I wonder how did you come to that conclusion. My definition of quality is that look and texture comes second, first and foremost parts and plastic bits should not keep falling off. You should not need to stick a black take on rear hatch locker mechanism to keep squeaks away. The review covers the issue of plastic bits not well put together. If you look at my review you will see how I have mentioned, that somebody did 99% of a very good job, and got lazy with the remaining 1%. That remaining 1% can doom a product.

If I were Tata I would position the Zest and Bolt in premium hatch space with slightly lower price.

And then I would create a variant of the hatch with some catchy name and a 120-150bhp engine.

It would not make much money, nor would it be a sales driver, however it would add the "passion and excitement" tag to the hatch.

In the west, there is a class of cheap hatchbacks with 120-150bhp engines as opposed to the 80-90bhp engines.

That class in India is out of reach of a hatchback buyer. Tata with so much in its parts bin and so many experimental engine can create a niche in this segment.

The 150bhp vehicle may not make numbers, but it will pull footfalls into the showrooms.

Another thing Tata can do at low cost is the free road side assitance.
Its costs around 500rs for a year and first 2 years are free.
If Tata gives it for 4 years, it will be a confidence booster, and Tata can use this in their advertisements.

Last but not the least, Tata needs to buy some 100,000kms done 2010 and later model indica's from market and take them apart. It then needs to see, "what went wrong". Why did the gearshift go hard. Why did the engine become tractor... and so on.

From my experience Tata works on this principle of "what"
Part fails - What to do ? replace part
It should go to Why
Part fails - Why?

That why is being done only for stuff which is new. For stuff which wears and tears, I don't think they do any analysis on why does it not last long.
Fortuner lasts long. Very long. Ditto for Innova. I have personally sat in a 200,000kms done innova. The seats were torn (taxi), and the dashboard was in bad shape, but engine was sounding pretty normal, and there was no abnormal smoke and all.