[theredliner]

Originally Posted by GrammarNazi

<Scarcasm>
Oh Definitely! Because out of EVERYTHING ELSE, that one piece of metal is going to be the most relevant part of the car.



WOW! What a find eagle eye! Come lets crucify Tata Motors. Find pre-launch test vehicles and highlight some trivial error, then we'll make a BIG deal out of it. Put thick RED circles around them. Maybe arrows too. Maybe later we'll make a video with dramatic music too.

Psst, but disguise it with a question ok, so we can hide behind technicalities later incase we get into trouble.

Honda may have recalled >31,000 units for something as supremely serious as the brakes, but forget that, Tata Motors got a vinyl stickering wrong in their test mule!

</Scarcasm>

Aren't some people are just waiting to find reasons to pull them down? Seriously, how can we allow such unfounded speculation?
Its deplorable.

Nothing personal. Just that Team-BHP is a reasonably well known auto forum. We're lucky to be able to put out honest & neutral perspectives to a fairly large reader base. Lets use this medium responsibly.

Come on. Chill out. You're acting like I attacked you or your company personally. If you had read some of my posts earlier, you would have noticed that I'm a big fan of the way Tata is proceeding with these vehicles. I'm looking to buy a car in the coming year and Bolt Revotron is at the top of my consideration. I am really happy that Tata is trying to shed its old history of bad finish etc. But since I'm eagerly waiting for this car, I'll try to look at it with an 'eagle eye'. I'd really feel bad if all that effort they put forward went in vain just because their execution of a wonderful plan went bad. I have big respect for Tata and I want to see them improve. Since these vehicles are close to launch, the possibility of the imperfections making to production is somewhat high. Since I'm a prospective buyer of this car, I don't want to see such a thing happen.

I was seriously offended with the way you attacked me personally(clearly), mocked me like I'm a retard with zero knowledge just because I highlighted some imperfection on a forum and say 'nothing personal' even though it can be clearly seen that it is personal, what a joke. I found that highly immature.

Let me say this too, Team-BHP is a reasonably well known auto forum. We're lucky to be able to put out honest & neutral perspectives to a fairly large reader base. Lets use this medium responsibly. Also, I wouldn't expect such a senior and respected member to put out such an irresponsible, personal, fanboyish attack and mock others just because someone pointed out an imperfection on a car made by his favourite brand.

Mods, I sincerely request you to approve this post since I want to put out my perspective too since I feel I was insulted personally.

[swiftnfurious]

Originally Posted by GrammarNazi

<Scarcasm>
Oh Definitely! Because out of EVERYTHING ELSE, that one piece of metal is going to be the most relevant part of the car.

WOW! What a find eagle eye! Come lets crucify Tata Motors. Find pre-launch test vehicles and highlight some trivial error, then we'll make a BIG deal out of it...

Sorry, but I do NOT find anything wrong with both comments for which you are flaming up. Ask a lot of people and atleast 90% will agree with the fact that the metal portion above the tail lamps could have been done way with to make it more beautiful. I am sure folks in TATA also are aware of this and may be there's some techinical issue because of which this have been skipped.

One the second post on the stickering, they could NOT get even a trivial stickering correctly? We can all heave a sigh of relief that this is the pre-production model and it might all be correct when they launch the final version; but what if it does NOT?!

For TATA, they can take inputs from the forum on where have they gone wrong and correct it. There are two ways to see these criticisms - healthy or un-healthy, it's one's choice to pick theirs.

As I said, even I am NOT bothered as this is a pre-production mule; but it definitely makes me cross my fingers!

Originally Posted by Latheesh

Thumbs down to Tail lamp area sheet metal and black stickers!

Originally Posted by theredliner

Oh oh. Bad finish from Tata continues?...

[Bhargava]

I have been wanting to send some feedback to Tata Motors. If any one reading this post knows the E-mail ID of Tata Motors, designated for receiving feedback, please PM me.

Thank you!

[deetjohn]

Originally Posted by theredliner

Oh oh. Bad finish from Tata continues?

I think the shape of the black vinyl is matching with the car unveiled at the Expo. The chrome bit covering it on the C pillar is missing in the test mule, that's all.

[theredliner]

Originally Posted by deetjohn

I think the shape of the black vinyl is matching with the car unveiled at the Expo. The chrome bit covering it on the C pillar is missing in the test mule, that's all.

You're right. The chrome near the rear door is missing. But it only forms a small part of that. What I'm trying to say can be summarized by these pictures.

[desdemona]

A trivial non-issue, even if the final production vehicles have this apparent abberation. It may even just be a little design twist. I find the Bolt to be splendid, inside AND out. The rear seems inspired by the Fiat 500.

It should be a great drive too, with the Fiat diesel and even the advertised Revotron's torque curve.

I only hope the wider public is not as hostile to Tata Motors' efforts here as some of us auto internauts are.

[Bhargava]

Dear members,

The Zest launch is around the corner and the Bolt should also follow sometime soon. Let us ignore such trivial issues (considering the fact that it is a test vehicle). Let the vehicles (when launched) do the talking.

Tata Motors is our national pride.

• It's CSR activities are unrivaled.

• It's employee satisfaction is among the best in the country.

• The VFM factor associated with Tata Motors products needs no special mention.

• Tata Motors has made India proud by acquiring the Jaguar and Land Rover - the highest paid acquisition in the Indian automobile history - which, fortunately turned-out to be extremely profitable for the Tata motors.
  The primary intention behind the acquisition of JLR (as told by Mr. Tata) was to acquire the 'technology know-how' (apart from the brands). Considering this fact, the doors are always open for Tata Motors to collaborate with the Land Rover and Jaguar on the technical and design front.

It is true that the company had slacked from 2008 till 2012, but the year 2013 is no ordinary one for the Tata Motors, though there were no visible changes i the marketplace, the company has set out on a transformation drive with it's Horizonext strategy.

Though the Bolt is based on X1 platform - this fact alone doesn't make it look, feel and drive like its predecessor. The Zest was built from ground-up on a completely enhanced X1 platform, with design, fabrication and technical inputs from Europe. The Bolt has some residual design cues on the side-profile, but has significant changes on the back-side and on the front-side of the car. Both the cars have better designs, neat fabrication and good built quality. The interior looks rival some of the market leaders. The In-Car-Entertainment equipment is best in the class.

Let us focus on some of the positive attributes:

• Class-leading Interiors

• Class-leading Space

• F-Tronic Automated Manual Transmission (AMT)

• Class-leading In-Car-Entertainment made by Harman featuring 5-inch touchscreen display with communication and navigation features

• Turbo-charged Petrol Engines (with Eco and Sport modes)

• Projector head-lamps

• LED tail lamps

• 16 inch wheels in Compact Sedan; 15 inch wheels in Hatchback

• Speed-Sensitive Electronic Power Steering

• Day-Time-Running-Lights

• Suspension -
  Front: Dual Path Independent McPherson strut with Antiroll Bar
  Rear: Semi Independent Twist beam with coil spring

• Let's not forget the USP of VFM

Having said that, I would like to say that it's not my intention to blindly support an Indian automobile manufacturer. If there is one thing I would like to change about Tata Motors, that would turn-around the company, it would be its management. Tata Motors is owned by some of the best people, but is unfortunately managed by a complicated management hierarchy consisting of people who lacks the drive, the passion, the energy; and who are reluctant to change and less conscious about the quality control and contemporary market trends.

Note to the Mods: I request the mods to kindly delete the post #607, if feasible. While I was working on this post, I inadvertently clicked on the "Submit Reply" prematurely, which resulted in an incomplete post #607. - Thank you!

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by GrammarNazi

Seems so. Theres not even a single reply to that thread. Out of 554 views, I don't know how many members saw that, but only 5 people have thanked the OP.

Slightly OT. Its a good thing if company does a recall. It means company is honest and upfront. I can assure you Tata has silently changed many very critical parts in many months of production Tata Safari's without a "beep" or announcement.
Critical part designs seen to be failing in the field in a large percentage of cars were simply changed under the guise of "retro"

Companies which do such recalls silently are unethical in my book. Hats of to companies who do recalls openly.

And to your other point, about the fact that people crucify Tata.. let me tell you, reputation has to be earned.
Tata Safari, Tata Indica, Tata Indigo at one time were cars which had very good reception in the market.
Over time, shoddy service and product quality eroded the brand.,

When somebody puts a years salary into a car, that person would not like to do a lot of research. And how are car companies judged? Well on their past history.

Tata has the Zest and Bolt. Maybe Tata fixes the quality problem, and slowly reputation will build. But till date, there is nothing concrete

I live in a big metro, and number of Tata workshops are shrinking, and the ones which botch up simple jobs.

80 out of 100 Tata customers(50 of them will probably be out for my blood ) may be very happy with Tata, but statistical research has shown that you need only 10% of dissatisfied customers to ruin a brand. And its not hard to find 1 very very disgruntled soul in 10 owners when it comes to Tata.

Coming back to the Zest and Bolt.
Here we have the most important cars for Tata, and somehow they are not there. There is no media blitzkreg, there is no visiblity. People first were excited with tata, then they hated Tata and now they have started to forget Tata.
Being forgotten is the worst thing Tata can do, and somehow, it seems everybody at Tata motors is sleeping.

[djpeesh]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

Slightly OT. Its a good thing if company does a recall. It means company is honest and upfront. I can assure you Tata has silently changed many very critical parts in many months of production Tata Safari's without a "beep" or announcement.
Critical part designs seen to be failing in the field in a large percentage of cars were simply changed under the guise of "retro"

Companies which do such recalls silently are unethical in my book. Hats of to companies who do recalls openly.

And to your other point, about the fact that people crucify Tata.. let me tell you, reputation has to be earned.
Tata Safari, Tata Indica, Tata Indigo at one time were cars which had very good reception in the market.
Over time, shoddy service and product quality eroded the brand.,

When somebody puts a years salary into a car, that person would not like to do a lot of research. And how are car companies judged? Well on their past history.

Tata has the Zest and Bolt. Maybe Tata fixes the quality problem, and slowly reputation will build. But till date, there is nothing concrete

I live in a big metro, and number of Tata workshops are shrinking, and the ones which botch up simple jobs.

80 out of 100 Tata customers(50 of them will probably be out for my blood ) may be very happy with Tata, but statistical research has shown that you need only 10% of dissatisfied customers to ruin a brand. And its not hard to find 1 very very disgruntled soul in 10 owners when it comes to Tata.

Coming back to the Zest and Bolt.
Here we have the most important cars for Tata, and somehow they are not there. There is no media blitzkreg, there is no visiblity. People first were excited with tata, then they hated Tata and now they have started to forget Tata.
Being forgotten is the worst thing Tata can do, and somehow, it seems everybody at Tata motors is sleeping.

I agree completely with you Tanveer. My dad, who was a Tata Safari loyalist from the day it was launched gave up on the safari after three iterations. He bought the tcic, 3.0 liter and then the 2.2 dicor.

When we were buying the XUV500, we also test drove the Storme and came to the conclusion that it was too little too late, and to top things off, a friend who bought the Storme, found his steering jammed on the left side around the same time. My dad, who drives a hyundai i10 automatic as his daily driver, is under the impression that the quality in the safari over generations has actually gotten worse, and I agree with him.

Unfortunately, the customers aren't going to give Tata Motors a second chance (or in our case a fourth chance), simply because for the same money, you can get top of the line fit and finish from the likes of hyundai and even home grown Maruti.

In the one year that we had the 2.2 dicor, we had 5 catastrophic failures. Yes five, including the wiring harness burning out twice, the power steering failing, the brakes in the rear not working, and the car randomly going into a limp mode and a number of minor niggles with bits of trim falling off. In the 5 years that my dad's had the i10, we've had 0.

Customers buying a car aren't in it for the social service or to keep the factory workers employed. They want top notch quality, new cars and the best of the line gizmos all at an affordable price.

If somebody else can give you that and Tata can't then Tata will go under. I'm sure I'm going to be brickbatted for saying what I said but given that I've seen both sides of the story, I think I'm not just talking through my hat.

On another note, it's time that the Tata Motors top and middle level management drive Tata cars. Most middle and senior level managers at Tata drive JLR products.

[desdemona]

Originally Posted by djpeesh

When we were buying the XUV500, we also test drove the Storme and came to the conclusion that it was too little too late,

Customers buying a car aren't in it for the social service or to keep the factory workers employed. They want top notch quality, new cars and the best of the line gizmos all at an affordable price.

If somebody else can give you that and Tata can't then Tata will go under. I'm sure I'm going to be brickbatted for saying what I said but given that I've seen both sides of the story, I think I'm not just talking through my hat.

Here I am with a brickbat (whatever that is), on cue to your borderline trolling.

The repetition of ancient stories, even if experienced first hand, is a good way to stop thinking in the present, and, better, to even stop others from being open-minded.

Congratulations on the XUV, a veritable paragon of engineering, design, plastic quality, reliability and ASS!

The new Safari Storme is indeed inferior to the old Safari tcic! Of course the many happy owners on team bhp and elsewhere need to be disabused of their satisfaction with Tata.

Congratulations also on finding Hyundai as a benchmark of "topnotch quality and gizmos", Tata Motors must indeed emulate Hyundai's under-engineered Verna, or maybe the under-engined i10 grand, all the while charging a premium (it is a Korean company after all, what pedigree!) on sale, and for parts and labour. Ah yes, Tata should also learn to make cars that look like tarts with lurid lipstick on. While they are at it, they must also go in for flimsy bouncy suspensions, and thinned-out sheet metal.

Tata Motors are obviously out of their minds when they're upgrading dealerships and ASS, and were crazy to have, over the last 2-3 years made the big improvements in quality and reliability in the Vista, Manza, Aria, and Storme that they have. Imagine that!

Let us also as auto aficionados shower kudos on Honda and the like for their honest recall policy, nevermind the fact that their two recent sedans are notable for lacking the small matters of: decent-sized tyres, NVH insulation, engine refinement, plastic quality, sheetmetal thickness, service intervals, warranty policies, spare part prices. In all honesty, methinks they should recall both cars in their entirety! They are Japanese after all, known for their honesty! Tata being a mere Indian firm has so much to learn if they want to emulate such ethical behaviour towards Indian customers.

[djpeesh]

Originally Posted by desdemona

Here I am with a brickbat (whatever that is), on cue to your borderline trolling.

The repetition of ancient stories, even if experienced first hand, is a good way to stop thinking in the present, and, better, to even stop others from being open-minded.

Congratulations on the XUV, a veritable paragon of engineering, design, plastic quality, reliability and ASS!

The new Safari Storme is indeed inferior to the old Safari tcic! Of course the many happy owners on team bhp and elsewhere need to be disabused of their satisfaction with Tata.

Congratulations also on finding Hyundai as a benchmark of "topnotch quality and gizmos", Tata Motors must indeed emulate Hyundai's under-engineered Verna, or maybe the under-engined i10 grand, all the while charging a premium (it is a Korean company after all, what pedigree!) on sale, and for parts and labour. Ah yes, Tata should also learn to make cars that look like tarts with lurid lipstick on. While they are at it, they must also go in for flimsy bouncy suspensions, and thinned-out sheet metal.

Tata Motors are obviously out of their minds when they're upgrading dealerships and ASS, and were crazy to have, over the last 2-3 years made the big improvements in quality and reliability in the Vista, Manza, Aria, and Storme that they have. Imagine that!

Let us also as auto aficionados shower kudos on Honda and the like for their honest recall policy, nevermind the fact that their two recent sedans are notable for lacking the small matters of: decent-sized tyres, NVH insulation, engine refinement, plastic quality, sheetmetal thickness, service intervals, warranty policies, spare part prices. In all honesty, methinks they should recall both cars in their entirety! They are Japanese after all, known for their honesty! Tata being a mere Indian firm has so much to learn if they want to emulate such ethical behaviour towards Indian customers.

Wow. So much rage? Even my friends who work at Tata aren't as passionate as you are. I was only making a point about why, despite having a Harman/Kardon audio system and all the bells and whistles, customers will not flock to buy the Zest/Bolt. In fact, I'm willing to put money on them being a flop.

About Mahindra, you can go through my previous posts and yes, it's had its share of catastrophic failures as well, but the thing about them is that they're sincere and are trying to fix the issues. Yes, they could have tested their products instead of the customers doing it for them, but all in all, its been an OK experience. Not fantastic, not excellent, not very good, not good. Just OK.

The reason I brought up the Hyundai example is to illustrate customer sentiment. I don't know a single person who will spend the same amount on a Vista if he can buy a Swift at the same price. An average customer doesn't care about tinny build quality or the lack of steering feel or the car being under-engineered (whatever you mean by that). He cares about whether its going to break down on him, whether its going to take him from point A to B comfortably, economically and when he gets to point B, what his friends will say about it. In that respect, word of mouth is extremely, extremely important. When he hears that Tata is unreliable, noisy (yes, I know an Indica of 2013 vintage that has a really squeaky fan belt at 30,000 km) and generally bad quality.

My office cab guy used to own a Manza. He upgraded(?) to a DZire and says that he's so much happier, the car is nicer to drive and his maintenance costs have come DOWN! So whatever you and I may say, he's going to cite his experience to his friends and other cab drivers, who will spread it further and as a result, no one will buy their new models, however well sorted out they are.

Let's agree to disagree and let the sales charts do the talking.

[deoelect]

Maybe this isn't relevant to this thread but did anyone notice RCB's colors in IPL ? They have TATA as sponsors with the 'BOLT' brand prominently flashed. Wish TATA displays the cars in the stadium which would give us BHPians a lot more to discuss on

Not sure why Rajasthan Royals don't get the same branding since TCS is their sponsor for quite some time now.

[sachinayak]

Wow, such extreme and strong views.

Let me add my 2c. I have a Tata Manza (that too a pre-owned one) and I couldn't be happier with my drive. I bought the vehicle with two primary requirements - SPACE and VFM. Cannot think of any other vehicle that can beat the Manza for this. I was OKAY to live with shoddy quality (based on online forum discussion) and have been pleasantly surprised till date. The difference is that I got a car based on my requirement, and not based on friend's recommendation or market response/sales numbers or brand value. Herd mentality is not uncommon when buying cars. Each car has its strengths and weaknesses, and failing to understand this when buying a car results in conflicts.

Look at various parameters of a car (listing some that come to my mind, please fill whatever is missed out)

Design
Ride Quality
Features
Handling
Product Quality
After-Sales Support
Value for Money
Passenger Space
Luggage Space
Long-term reliability
Fuel Efficiency
Buying experience


What Tata is typically good at?
- Value for Money
- Passenger Space
- Luggage Space
- Features (based on my experience with Manza)
- Ride Quality
- Fuel Efficiency (based on their advt, have experience fantastic mileage on my Manza as well)


Where Tata is focusing with the Zest/Bolt?
- Design
- Features
- Handling
- Product Quality
- Buying experience (perhaps, based on information available in online forums)


What still needs to be seen is any improvement in
- After-Sales Support
- Long-term reliability


Can we not accept that TML is making moves in the right direction?

I can understand the furore if the issues/glitches reported were on a post-production model, but are we starting to nitpick on test-mules (disguised or undisguised). Many a times even Team-BHP reviews mention that the model they are testing are pre-production mules and perhaps any issues reported may get addressed in the actual product, can we not give any benefit of doubt just because it is a TML product? Cmon, they have been shoddy in the past, but do not companies turn around?

Honestly, just think about how TML has managed to change the perception about design. When the Bolt test mules were first seen, everyone wrote it off due to its close resemblance to the Vista. After the actual product release, so many people changed their opinion.

Let us give them a chance, after all we love the underdogs to create a turnaround, don't we?

[dmplog]

Not sure if this news needs to be here or somewhere else, but as we are on the topic of Bolt and Zest, I thought this is relevant:

Source: Ankush Arora quits Tata Motors

Mumbai, May 5: Ankush Arora, Tata Motors’ Senior Vice-President (Commercial) of the Passenger Vehicle Business Unit, has resigned at a time when two vital car launches are around the corner.
The timing of his move is also intriguing given that the company’s PR team had arranged for media meetings with Arora barely a week ago to discuss these launches. He had then told Business Line that the 'Bolt' hatchback and 'Zest' sedan would mark a ‘dramatic perception change’ of Tata Motors.
Arora was spearheading an important exercise to revamp the retail network across the country. This was being done in collaboration with international design consultant, Fitch, to ensure a ‘phenomenally new customer experience’. Tata Motors, he said, was teaming up with its dealers for a 'massive hiring’ drive where the sales force would increase by nearly 3,000 people.
With such important plans underway, and given that the Bolt and Zest are tipped to be make-or-break products for the company, why did Arora choose to quit at this point in time? A large company like Tata Motors would, of course, have no problems finding a replacement but high-profile exits do cause ripples in the system. And it is no secret that the company’s passenger car business is in dire need of a revival which it hopes will happen with the Bolt and Zest.
Arora joined Tata Motors early last year to become part of the late Managing Director, Karl Slym’s core team. The two had worked together in General Motors India prior to this. Slym’s unexpected passing this January had sent shockwaves within the auto industry even while the Tata Motors team tried to put this behind them and move on.
Over the last six months, Arora admitted that he had been on ‘super drive’ with the revamp of the company’s showrooms now underway. The eventual goal was to create a different mindset for the buyer while improving things on the service side too. The launch of the Bolt and Zest also meant the transition from a diesel engine manufacturer to a petrol option with the new Revotron engine.

[directinjection]

Originally Posted by dmplog

Ankush Arora quits Tata Motors

I wouldn't be surprised if he has been poached by Maruti to put a spoke in TM's wheels.