[ant_vas]

A small piece of news extract from ibnlive.com:

The group's plant at Ranjangoan in Maharashtra will roll out six models across three platforms by 2018, up from the current three models from a single platform. The facility will produce six types of engines from the current three.

Currently Fiat has 1.2, 1.4 Petrol and 1.3L diesel engines. 3 more engines types to come? will it be twinair or 1.5L MJD? what does fiat have up its sleeves? any guesses?

[blacksport]

This ain't taking off this time around either. It has nothing to enthuse the enthusiasts, nor does it have anything to enthuse the masses.

Enthusiasts would have loved to see some better engines. At least the 1.4 Tjet, which they already have in their parts bin. But then, yes apart from a handful enthusiasts, none else are going to buy it. But hey, even with these sad engines, the masses are still not going to touch it. For the masses, what does the Punto offer that is better than the tried and tested Swift/i20/Polo/Figo?

[tbppjpr]

Originally Posted by Vid6639

And, no VW is NOT the only brand that publishes engine figures at the wheels.
Every manufacturer publishes power figures at the crank including Maruti and Fiat. Nobody will publish engine output at the wheels.

Well I also used to believe that the engine figures published are at crank and VW is also not any different until I came to know about few dyno tests of VAG cars. I haven't preserved the links of all those tests and posts but for the sake of some evident, I will post this one at here :

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/modifi...imes-here.html

Stock engine specs of the 1.6 TDI is 105 bhp, 250 nm. And Dyno test confirms 108 bhp, 280nm at wheels. Remapped figures are different.

The other dyno tests I came to know also confirm the same. Other cars, (especially MJD family since this thread is about Punto) show some dropped output.

VAG indeed publishes figures at wheel.

And I am the one who is against fanboyism. I am talking on facts.

[extreme_torque]

Mod Note: As warned before, keep things absolutely NEUTRAL on Team-BHP. Biased posts will NOT be tolerated on this forum.

[gsurya]

Sadly Fiat has plonked in the same old 1.4 FIRE petrol engine in there, instead of bringing in the NEW 1.4 FIRE MultiAir engine that is seen on Punto Evo in Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_Grande_Punto

Being a version of the highly reliable 1.4 FIRE petrol engine first launched by Fiat in 1985, this was very well received & highly reliable.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/...-it-works.html

Wonder why Fiat India thinks with a fantastic new body, superbly up-to-date interiors, the Punto Evo here doesnt deserve a new heart?

[Vid6639]

Originally Posted by tbppjpr

Well I also used to believe that the engine figures published are at crank and VW is also not any different until I came to know about few dyno tests of VAG cars. I haven't preserved the links of all those tests and posts but for the sake of some evident, I will post this one at here :

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/modifi...imes-here.html

Stock engine specs of the 1.6 TDI is 105 bhp, 250 nm. And Dyno test confirms 108 bhp, 280nm at wheels. Remapped figures are different.

The other dyno tests I came to know also confirm the same. Other cars, (especially MJD family since this thread is about Punto) show some dropped output.

VAG indeed publishes figures at wheel.

And I am the one who is against fanboyism. I am talking on facts.

All cars show some dropped output. If you see the same member also reported a dropped output in another post:

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/long-...ml#post2652242

This one shows a 2BHP loss. This is not as much but even the Fiat MJD only loses 4-5 bhp on the Dyno.

No one here is denying that the Polo is fast. It's performance even in the 90Ps tune is better than the Punto 90HP Sport. This is for sure.

Your comment on tank like body shell and Polo being in a different league was fanboyish. The Punto has an equal tank like feel if not more and the ride and handling are in a different league as well.

[drmohitg]

Whats interesting in that price list is the discounts. The prices are competitive to start with and once the discounts start coming in, the gap will further increase in favor of Punto. Lets see if Fiat can pull some customers its way with this new Punto.

[tbppjpr]

Originally Posted by Vid6639

Your comment on tank like body shell and Polo being in a different league was fanboyish. The Punto has an equal tank like feel if not more and the ride and handling are in a different league as well.

Well if that looks like fanboy-ish post then I take back my words but I added that line because only similar line comes in favor of Punto while someone tries to justify the Punto as a best car against others instead of some facts. So I added that in my comment to make it clear that now that favoring-point is also taken by some other car.


Now I see a new comment by a respectable fellow above claiming Punto out-handling and out-riding other cars. If you allow me then I would like to invite some facts, some test results, some data to prove that the Punto handles better than all others.

As far as there is no fact-full data is posted in favor of such comments to prove the Punto a winner in handling/riding department, I would consider such comment as plain insult of other cars.

[blacksport]

@ extreme_torque

I am not sure you understood my post right.

Take a step back, and ponder for a moment why the older Punto wasn't selling. Was it because it wasn't looking good and needed a new face? Punto was already a beautiful car, perhaps a tad better with the old face. Its main weakness was in the engines, and that still hasn't been addressed.

The masses are never going to buy a Punto. As long as the FIAT logo is in there, no Joe is going to buy it. Even if you get one to buy it, the next day he is going to come back complaining about mileage.

FIAT has lost the plot in positioning the cars for its target market. They are not even sure whom to target. Masses, or the enthusiasts.

[asdon]

Originally Posted by tbppjpr

Now I see a new comment by a respectable fellow above claiming Punto out-handling and out-riding other cars. If you allow me then I would like to invite some facts, some test results, some data to prove that the Punto handles better than all others.

As far as there is no fact-full data is posted in favor of such comments to prove the Punto a winner in handling/riding department, I would consider such comment as plain insult of other cars.

Did you ever drove a Punto? on a long ride? bad roads? curved ones? if not do once and then I am sure you will never need any data printed on a foolish magazine to claim Punto handles better than others in the league. Interiors, features were not upto the mark if the comparison is with Polo, but not on riding. It has been taken care of in new Punto.

And how many times in a day do you check 0-100 timings of your car? is it worth mentioning?

If you feel Polo has a tank like feel, Punto & Linea are a tank inside a bunker.

[Rubbertramps]

Originally Posted by blacksport

The masses are never going to buy a Punto. As long as the FIAT logo is in there, no Joe is going to buy it. Even if you get one to buy it, the next day he is going to come back complaining about mileage.

Thats not entirely true. With history in mind, although Live and Etios had Toyota stamped, did it set the sales charts on fire. You must be aware that Toyota recently accepted failure for not able to penetrate into the mass market. One can never anticipate the market.

Infact Ford came up with a failure called Escort. Did it not change games with the Figo. Right products will gain enough interests. Stop the Fiat bashing around here. There is another thread for that purpose. I am sure you will love it !

Originally Posted by tbppjpr

As far as there is no fact-full data is posted in favor of such comments to prove the Punto a winner in handling/riding department, I would consider such comment as plain insult of other cars.

Everything cannot be fact based here. Statements can be made from ones perception and experience. So it is not to be taken as an insult. A discussion is what is aimed at here.

Cheers !

[adimicra]

This turned out to be quite a dampener.. the only good thing is the pricing which is very competitive and discounts will make it more attractive.
But I think FIAT needs to reinvent itself in India. They can't do these piecemeal facelifts and expect the sales to jump up suddenly. They needed a game-changer... at least Tata is trying whereas FIAT is doing a half-hearted job.

And I agree with some others here - this is a car neither for the masses nor for the enthusiasts. Yeah, some fan boys might jump on me saying Punto is in a different league etc but I believe the Polo/Fabia/figo/Swift all handles very well. The earlier Punto looked like a million bucks, the new one not so much. Also, when Punto was launched first, the feature set offered was very attractive (I think only the I20 offered similar or better feature set). But, now that's not the case.

There might be slight increase in sales for the next few months after which it will settle down at current levels or go down even further with new launches like I20, Jazz, new Figo coming up.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by blacksport

I am not sure you understood my post right.

Take a step back, and ponder for a moment why the older Punto wasn't selling. Was it because it wasn't looking good and needed a new face? Punto was already a beautiful car, perhaps a tad better with the old face. Its main weakness was in the engines, and that still hasn't been addressed.

Simple because it is a Fiat. The baggage the brand carries which has been its own doing even though the cars themselves are fabulous. The same engine in Swift, Sail, Dzire is not a weakness but it is a weakness in a Fiat? Just because it take a couple more seconds to reach to 100 kph? And you think the reason Fiat does not sell is this? You have not read it at all.

Originally Posted by blacksport

The masses are never going to buy a Punto. As long as the FIAT logo is in there, no Joe is going to buy it. Even if you get one to buy it, the next day he is going to come back complaining about mileage.

FIAT has lost the plot in positioning the cars for its target market. They are not even sure whom to target. Masses, or the enthusiasts.

You really need to decide if it is the brand or the engine? Fiat is not targeting enthusiast market, infact that market does not even exist in India. Fiat was targeting and should always target the mass market. For all of us crying for the 1.4 Tjet engine in Punto, how many Linea's did Fiat sell with the same engine? GTO says it is the sedan to buy in the petrol segment but how many do they sell? And that car has almost everything going for it - looks, performance, equipment, ride and handling, braking etc etc except that it is a Fiat.
I want them to come with a comprehensive service packages, something on the lines of Figo where you pay upfront amount and then you do not have to worry about servicing for 3-4 years or like Chevrolet, offering free service for three years or something. Chevrolet brand hadn't had great reputation in the market and has been helped a lot by initiatives like these.

I think with every Fiat launch, a forgone conclusion is that it is not going to sell and we start writing obituaries even before driving or living with one for s considerable time. If I was in the market for hatchback today I would be terribly confused between the new Polo and the Punto.

[Biraj]

Good step by Fiat. The pricing is aggressive and shall be able to pull prospective customers, if Fiat launches (and sustains) an equally aggressive marketing campaign.

Slight rant for Fiat - Why did they discontinue Oceanic Blue? It's an excellent shade for Hatchbacks. Now both my cars (Bronzo Scuro Linea and Oceanic Blue Punto) are in colours that have been discontinued.

Originally Posted by tbppjpr

As far as there is no fact-full data is posted in favor of such comments to prove the Punto a winner in handling/riding department, I would consider such comment as plain insult of other cars.

Will this help?

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...bad-roads.html

There's a golden rule about debates (rather arguments) - "Anything that can be stated, can be contradicted, including this statement". So, don't believe what other's (forums/magazines, etc) say. Take a test-drive of Punto and experience it first hand.

[rsidd]

Originally Posted by gsurya

Sadly Fiat has plonked in the same old 1.4 FIRE petrol engine in there, instead of bringing in the NEW 1.4 FIRE MultiAir engine that is seen on Punto Evo in Europe. Being a version of the highly reliable 1.4 FIRE petrol engine first launched by Fiat in 1985, this was very well received & highly reliable.

Oddly, Fiat UK's July catalogue does not list a MultiAir engine for the Punto. To me it looks like the same 1.2/1.4 petrol and 1.3 diesel multijet that are available in India.

The same catalogue lists 0.9 TwinAir for the Panda. It costs about 1000 GBP more than the 1.2L petrol. Maybe that's a factor.