[ashish_BHP]

Kudos again for this detailed and in depth review. FIAT does make some best cars on earth ,but why they do they compromise on interiors,fit and finish? I travel in a friend's 3 month old punto quite often.The interiors do not give a good impression. Dash looks so average ,no bottle holders, music system does not have media player option and each time he plays from steering or voice commands. Back seat leg space is bad for a car of this pricing. The front roof almost cracks if pressed. I am planning for a FIAT vehicle in next 3-4 months .These factors actually are stopping me and i am getting deviated towards LINEA or POLO.

[sandeepmohan]

Originally Posted by Abhi_abarth

Even if there isn't any passenger sitting won't the bags open only if the seat belt is strapped. In that case I am wondering why do we even need this feature when the seat belts act like a switch

I can't speak for other cars. In case of Fiat's Linea and Grande Punto equipped with a front passenger air bag, the system is not wired to detect passenger presence. The air bag will pop in the event of a head on crash. Disabling the passenger air bag is provided so you can place a infant seat up front, in reverse direction. Airbag deployment can cause injury to a infant.

I don't see any additional stalk control, so my guess is the 2014 Punto does not have Cruise Control.

[nkrishnap]

Originally Posted by swiftnfurious

Oops!
And FYI, this is a problem right from 2010 I believe. I remember my friend and a fellow bhpian cum Punto owner asking us to be careful on the lever on his brand new Punto Emotion on day 2 of his purchase.

In fact as I type this post, the seat height adjustment lever in my Linea is broken, though due to my negligence. My Laptop bag was stuck to the handle which I did not observe and pulled the bag hard and it broke. In my view, this is an issue, but to me it isn't critical, but definitely a quality/design issue which should have been sorted out long back. Even the on the facelift, the key console area is still inconsistent and the 4 cars I checked and all 4 had different levels of finish. The fit and finish has come a long way but still has some way to go before it is near perfect.

I for one, will never say Fiat or any other manufacturer's car is the best as each car has its shortcomings.

Originally Posted by finneyp

As mentioned earlier, gear ratio has been corrected in New Linea & most likely in New Punto as well. I can definitely feel better drivebility in lower gears on my New Linea.

No, the gear ratio is not corrected in the Linea, it is still the same. However, for the Punto facelift the final drive ratio on the 75HP is altered to achieve higher ARAI mileage 20.3 kmpl (earlier - 19.x kmpl).

Originally Posted by sandeepmohan

I don't see any additional stalk control, so my guess is the 2014 Punto does not have Cruise Control.

The Punto facelift does not have the cruise control, Auto headlamps or the Rain sensing wipers which the Linea Facelift has.

[narayans80]

It would be interesting to see the Evo parked aside the Grande Punto. The side profile picture makes it look a big longer (Indian Punto aka Grande Punto is a bit longer than the Punto in Italy. The back profile is more like it.

The badging also looks to be changed. The Punto badge is in the centre and EVO is bottom right justified.

[lapis_lazuli]

I am sure the mods may have noticed, but it's again becoming a Punto vs The Other Car debate!

The heart of the new cars, all of the variants, remain unchanged! The original poster tried to present the new Punto "package" vis-a-vis the earlier model.

The changes that have been done, in the bumper, the grill, the lights, interiors etc: I believe these are the ones that may be introduced with a minimal amount of fuss, regulations to meet or re-certifications, for that matter! Hence done and proved!

Changing an engine for cars selling in low 4 digits, or even 3 digits, is probably expecting too much. The cost of maintaining the spares inventory for a minimum stipulated of 10 years for an absolutely new model, won't even break even, with the sales figures!

Now there is an enthusiast, and there are enthusiasts! Forgive me, I am pretty naive here, but I dont see a dedicated Fabia forum or an i10 forum or an Alto forum for that matter, at least in India. Why is this?

My thinking: every FIAT owner probably takes a calculated risk into buying the brand. Therafter, mostly enjoys it, and creates a network of cronies, with an expectation of coming to each others help, if the company forgets them! The fun, frolic and the joy of owning part, is, of course the other part of it! You know, that belong to the pack, feeling. Feeling of exclusivity? Yes, quite a bit, too!

Even now, the 2014 Punto buyers would take a calculated risk, will get a car that behaves exactly like the predecessors, but at the end, its like the middle aged lady who just got ready for a botox jab.

I own a punto, I believe she is female , I like the car, its a good car! Reliable, sturdy, with its share of niggles. The 2014 cars, would be just that.

Little OT:

While judiciously pointing out the cubbyhole volume, or the drivers seat thickness, or the boot locks flimsyness is part of an honest review, it again is for the enthusiasts, and not really for the mass-market buyers who set charts on fire.

And there are enthusiasts who never bothered with the turbo lag, or German "unreliablility", lack of low end torque and yet bought the corresponding cars in the segment! And wrote rave reviews!

Do the auto industry professionals even think like "enthusiasts"?

[CliffHanger]

Originally Posted by GTO

Now, back to the discussion:

Absolutely not. We're still waiting for positive changes [b]since nearly 20 years

I don't want to repeat, but for the sake of this argument, I'm repeating again -

Aggressive sales and service expansion is a positive change, setting up R&D in Chennai is a positive change, product face-lifts, new products and brand in the anvil is a positive change.

Even if the last two isn't fully convincing, the first two will definitely look like a positive change even to someone with basic common sense, isn't it?

First, Fiat ties up with Premier. Then it breaks the partnership. It ties up with Tata and again, breaks the ties. In this time of searching & evaluating strategies, other car makers go from strength to strength, relegating Fiat to the bottom of the pile.

Fiat is trying and not sitting idle. Not everybody is a genius to crack the code on the first try.

And what's wrong in trying? I know I'm failing, but unless I try, how will I know what is Success?

Yes, may be Maruthi and Hyundai went from strength to strength, but didn't Tata, which was once at top, go drastically down? Didn't Honda, which almost spiraled out, come back strongly? And, what's happening with Chevy now?

Did they all quit?

I think it is common sense to understand that UPs and DOWNs are common in any business, and sometimes the DOWN can be a little long. And, what is "little long" for one business may not be the same for other.

Also, we are not talking about a small time venture capitalist here, Fiat is an International Conglomerate operating for several decades.

Their permanent placement at the absolutely last position in the market says a lot about the strategy (or lack of).

I think my previous points have already answered this one.

My comment was in response to your sweeping statement that Fiats are better than the competition.

When you use a sweeping word such as "Sweeping", the least I expect is the post to be properly read.

This is what I posted -

"...that the cars are better than most of the competition, and a considerable few end up buying Fiat. "

Could you "spot" that?

Here's where I disagree. To me, the Linea T-Jet remains the best petrol sedan one can buy.

Glad, you like the Linea. I like it too.

Unlike the awfully slow Punto, the T-Jet actually has performance to match its 'enthusiast' aspirations.

Even I don't like the Punto for its slow nature. But I sold my Punto when I went abroad, when I came back, I bought a new Punto again. The boy racer in me enjoys my friend's Swift every now and then, but the mature enthusiast in me yearns for taking the Punto on those long drives to hills and forests.

That change in reputation sure doesn't seem to be doing any good for them. I don't see an effect on their sales, despite greatly cutting the price and bringing the Linea to 6 lakhs! Neither the price cut or this supposed improvement of reputation has done anything for them, leading one to believe that the 'change in reputation' is perception only.

It's very rare for a product, which bombed when launched, to recover. I think almost everyone is aware of that. All the price-cuts, face-lifts are part of the products life cycle, and in Fiat's case, it is just to keep the brand name floating.

Fiat makes good cars, is a good brand, has come up with a new strategy now, and most importantly they are trying hard. Can we give some respite to them?

True. But there are a 100X that number of people taking 'informed decisions' and buying other hatchbacks too.

True. My sister is small built, she drives a car to visit nearby shopping malls and beaches. She is contemplating changing her car now and I have recommended her the i10.

They're actually surviving only because of their engine business. Ask me if Fiat makes among the best diesel engines available? Yes.

Glad, you pointed it out.

The best cars? Far from it.

Not too far, I say.

Actually, this statement isn't farther from the truth. Fiat has EXCESS capacity in India and it doesn't need to invest 'hundreds of crores'.

I hope you read that the new investment is on setting up the sales and service network and on the R&D center, and not in the existing manufacturing plant.

The Indian operations are not a priority for Fiat boss Sergio at all. It's not easy to see why. They even cancelled the plans to launch the Jeep brand last year, indefinitely delaying the launch.

In a business, I cannot have equal priority to everything.

And I think they announced again that the Jeep brand will be launched in 2016

They're mass market products that have been given the thumbs down by the market, and only appeal to a small number of enthusiasts.

I think I have given a bit of explanation on my previous post, but quoting again -

"Punto and Linea, though basically have traits that satisfy a lot of enthusiasts, were launched targeting the mass market. Fiat realized what mass market expects is not what they are popular for, that is why they announced that they are going to be targeting a fixed set of customers, that is the informed ones who appreciate a car as a whole. That is why they shelved their plans to launch a B segment car. May be the other reason could be they realized they may not be able to penetrate the market of Maruti or Hyundai, a market that expects maximum fuel efficiency but skinny tyres, glossy plastics but tinny builds and compromised safety. "

In that respect, the VW Polo GTs are far superior.

You are comparing cars that were launched six years back and cars that were recently launched. Even then, the T-jet still holds a candle to the GT, does that say something?

Even if true, doesn't look like their targeting is working as the sales numbers remain the same. Good lip service, if actually provided. Heck, the totally niche & highly impractical 2-door Thar outsells Fiats products sometimes.

Apples to oranges comparison!

Or perhaps, they realised they can't compete in the mass market which expects a company to consistently back them, excellent overall quality fit & finish, frequently updated products, premium interiors, stellar reliability, cars that are easy to drive in the city and have a vast service network that remains stable.

I read a thread from you with a title something like "Toyota accepts defeat in mass market penetration.." or something about Toyota accepting defeat in its inability to penetrate the mass market.

Does that say something?

For enthusiasts who want a truly quick car with a solid build, good ride & handling, and detest slowcoaches, there's always the VW Polo GT range.

There is T-jet too. And, I'm not going to delve into the obscene maintenance charges that VW makes the customer pay.

Absolutely not. But you shouldn't be bothered as much with no. 5 or no. 6 as you should when you are continuously LAST.

As as long as I'm happy with what I'm doing and hopeful of my future and working hard for that, why give damn to those numbers!!!

[sawnilrules]

Sorry, but as a knowledgeable enthusiast, I disagree that Fiat is 'better' than most of the competition. I'd buy a Swift ZDi over the Punto today and a Vento TDI over the Linea MJD.

Errr... I wouldn't buy a Swift over a Punto, definitely not. If I was in the market to have fun with my car, and drive it fast over the corners, handling and cornering ability is something I would see first along with Build Quality, and sadly, none of the Maruti cars feel built to last and handling of Swift is no where near Punto.

Yes Swift does score points on its service network strength and ease of availability of parts when required. But hey, ain't it out there in first place to enjoy cornering capabilities of my car, its road hugging capabilities over part issues. (which may or may not occur)

[rsidd]

Originally Posted by narayans80

(Indian Punto aka Grande Punto is a bit longer than the Punto in Italy.)

Bit shorter you mean? Ie, a tad under 4m for excise duty reasons (the Italian Grande Punto and Punto Evo were both a tad over at 4030mm, and the 2012 edition is even longer). [edit -- maybe the 3-door Grande Punto in Italy was shorter.]

[rameshnanda]

Originally Posted by Abhi_abarth

Even if there isn't any passenger sitting won't the bags open only if the seat belt is strapped. In that case I am wondering why do we even need this feature when the seat belts act like a switch !!!

If you decide to use a child seat at the front and you have to use the seat belt here but the Airbags shouldn't deploy as it will become fatal for the kid. Hence, this feature.

[narayans80]

Originally Posted by rsidd

Bit shorter you mean? Ie, a tad under 4m for excise duty reasons (the Italian Grande Punto and Punto Evo were both a tad over at 4030mm, and the 2012 edition is even longer). [edit -- maybe the 3-door Grande Punto in Italy was shorter.]

Am not sure of exact numbers. Am just visibly comparing the Punto I saw in India and the Punto I see day in day out here in Italy Will try to capture a picture next time around.

[TorqueyTechie]

The car for me is good to look at and is inline with the current times. Only grouse being the old 90's type door handles and the chrome additions. GC can be reduced a bit at the factory level itself to offset the wheel gap.

Fiat has come up with a good car which ticks most of the boxes from my perspective. IF they had tweaked the gear ratios a bit and as others have said earlier plonked the Tjet engine it would have been a killer.

Well dont want to create a new debate but read in motorbeam about some reasons why few people are obsessed about FIAT brand/cars.

Here is the link .

http://www.motorbeam.com/cars/fiat/1...th-their-cars/

[nim_peter]

Looking at the increasing demands for GTXs and S10s, a T-jet Punto would have been perfect. With better brakes and safety it would have been an ideal hot hatch. Not much competitors in this segment except Polo GT. Punto and Linea are in a very tough segment and they can't compete with Marutis and Hyundais. Better stick to sports DNA(like Yamaha) and advertise as fast cars and make fast cars.

Does FIAT and Yamaha have some tie up, moto GP? If yes, what is the tie up for, does it include Indian market as well?

Another question, why not have only 90hp and get rid of 75hp? Is it just the turbo which is the difference? If yes how much is the price difference between FGT and VGT component?

[46TheDoctor]

My opinion about the punto evo as an existing 2012 Punto owner:
1. Exteriors are spoiled. I love timeless looks/lines of current car.
2. Interiors are better, especially the quality of plastics used as per the reviews.

About why i think Punto is the best hatchback to buy in india (after my 2years 42000 km ownership and 90000km ownerships of my couple of friends Puntos):

1. Punto 90 is not the fastest but has adequate performance for the segment and has unmatched ride and handling. As we have poor roads and dense traffic, ride quality is more important than outright performance. I rarely need to slow down in my Punto for rough patches/ undulations where so called enthusiast's Marutis and Hyundais are crawling. So traveling times are actually faster than others from point A to B.
2. Low maintainance costs with 15k service intervals and cheap spares ( compared to polo, fabia)
3. Superb brakes, most stable and safest car in any road/climatic conditions among the cars that i have owned till date. (I have owned zen, swift zxi, palio 1.6, octavia vrs, safari 4x4, Pajero sport and Punto till date)
4. Top end has all the essential features and more than we might ever need. About LEDs, i dont care.
5. Best built quality among all the cars that i have owned from the perspective of rattle free experience. My friends give me same feedbacks even after 90k kms in their puntos.
6. No breakdowns or unexpected failures or unscheduled visits to workshop till date for any of the puntos among my friends.
7. Looks fabulously beautiful with timeless looks.
8. After sales is improved a lot and is good enough at least in Pune.

Also one of the chief reasons i bought the Punto is that the car is also frequently used by my ageing parents and i am relieved to know that:
1. Its not excessively fast for my parents. Power delivery is quiet linear.
2. It will cause least back pain/ fatigue of long distance travels to parents among all the hatches.
3. It will NEVER loose its composure during any avoidance manoeuvres and will ALWAYS stop without drama under panic braking.
4. It will never breakdown in middle of nowhere with just timely scheduled maintainance.
5. Its fundamentally as good as luxo germans with reliability and easy of use factors for my not so techno savvy parents.

A few negatives that you need to adjust with are:
1. Poor under thigh support for slim drivers, people with heavy legs dont face this issue.
2. Steering wheel too high for short drivers. Should have more range of adjustment.
3. Poor rear leg room behind tall drivers.
4. Rubbery/ vague gear shift feel.

But the positive aspects are so strong for this car that after a few thousand km of use, you learn to live with these minor design flaws and fall in love with this Fiat :-)

[tbppjpr]

IMO they should have directly come up with the Avventura variant instead of this EVO avatar.

Originally Posted by amit_mechengg

While we can munch some pop corn and relax, since this thread has a word FIAT in it below is a nice article from motorbeam

http://www.motorbeam.com/cars/fiat/1...th-their-cars/

Well, one more nice article by same motorbeam but with some facts : http://www.motorbeam.com/cars/volksw...wift-shootout/

Obsession is one thing and reality another.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by TorqueyTechie

Well dont want to create a new debate but read in motorbeam about some reasons why few people are obsessed about FIAT brand/cars.



Here is the link .



http://www.motorbeam.com/cars/fiat/1...th-their-cars/

Thanks for sharing that article. Quite relevant considering the debate earlier in the day.

Echoes my view point that if a brand is able to convert the owners to fanboys, then there must be something about the driving experience that only an extensive drive/ ownership might reveal. I realised it the hard way- after being a loyal FIAT basher for years, had to humbly swallow my words. Thankfully, my ego as an automobile enthusiast was not too bad enough to turn a total blind eye against the experience.

Same goes with the Punto Evo. It might sell less, but it will continue to convert bashers to fans at the usual slow pace. Might have picked up some momentum if there were engine/ gearbox updates, but the management at FIAT is again a bunch of MBAs rather than baptised FIAT owners. It would be childish to expect them to understand their loyal fanbase if majority of fellow enthusiasts are not able to!

To quote the lines from one of the most famous books of the last decade- there are no hard facts, there are only paradigms and paradigm shifts. Paradigm shifts create the 'aha' experience, the longer and harder it takes to realise- the better the 'aha' will be!



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