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Old 5th November 2018, 09:32   #46
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Default Re: Supreme Court bans 15-year old petrol & 10-year old diesel vehicles in Delhi-NCR

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Guys, I have criticized this move earlier, but after continually reading about the pathetic pollution levels of our metro cities, I am becoming increasingly inclined to take older cars out of them. It doesn't mean they will die = no. Car penetration levels in India are woefully low and there will be ample demand for these used cars outside of the big cities.

BS emission norms are getting continually stricter with time. And it will always be the case. Example = BSVI is also not far away. On a whole, we can say that the lower the average age of the car on the road, the cleaner they are.

Considering how the pollution levels have gotten drastic in Delhi, I am changing my vote and supporting the ban on old cars.
Thanks GTO,

Can you please share the Δ (Delta i.e. difference in emissions of various pollutants) value for the two cases

- Between a Euro IV car vs a Euro VI car for 15 years assuming an average of about 7 - 8 k km (which I assume is a reasonable value for private users per year)

- And scrapping a Euro IV car and manufacturing a new Euro VI car which may include complete metal and other materials extraction, disposal of non-recyclable materials and manufacturing emissions including the material abuse that will happen in this case

Please try and understand that the rate of increase of vehicles is continuous on our roads whereas such reactions from administration (which they call as graded response and actually it is far away from it) is observed only during winters?

- The reason is not vehicles; the root cause is different ! - Look at the traffic management in Delhi during peak hours
- This is not a function of 10 years vs 15 years but a complete failure of analysis of issue in India
- Even the manufacturers are lobbying behind it, they either play foul by not letting the new emission standards coming into play or if it is unavoidable, they are trying to create additional demand through blanket bans on previous generation vehicles


There are several research papers and studies confirming that material abuse in Indian industry is repent in automobile sector as well as in white goods (essentially the star rating program for equipment).

We simply buy a 5 star rated AC assuming that it is energy efficient and never look at the difference in size of heat exchanger between a 5 star and a 3 star AC. The life cycle emissions (additional emissions) for production of copper and and its use in a 5 star AC against a 3 star AC outweighs the benefits of savings.

We buy because we can afford cannot be a universal truth for everyone using automotives and other capital intensive goods and such decisions by governments and even the judiciary are far away from reality.

Last edited by i74js : 5th November 2018 at 09:49.
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Old 5th November 2018, 09:59   #47
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Default Re: Supreme Court bans 15-year old petrol & 10-year old diesel vehicles in Delhi-NCR

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Originally Posted by saket77 View Post
Forget 10/15 years or failing fitness tests, Delhi might go for a complete private vehicle ban from Nov 1 if the situation worsens!

Link:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com...w/66428882.cms
Environment Pollution Control Authority chairman Bhure Lalís remarks about banning the use of private vehicles from November 1 onwards, although drastic, will definitely not be enough to curb pollution. Because vehicles account for around 9% of the cityís pollution, just a tenth is due to 4-wheelers.

It's road dust that contributes 56% and 38% of Delhiís PM10 and PM2.5 pollution, respectively, and crop stubble burning that, according to a Harvard study, is responsible for 50% of the pollution in October and November in the NCR.

P.S. I just wish we had more educated/informed decision makers
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Old 5th November 2018, 12:00   #48
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Default Re: Supreme Court bans 15-year old petrol & 10-year old diesel vehicles in Delhi-NCR

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Originally Posted by i74js View Post
Thanks GTO,

Can you please share the Δ (Delta i.e. difference in emissions of various pollutants) value for the two cases
I think what we need is a comparison between Bharat Stage IV and VI. The Bharat Stage norms aren't the same as Euro norms.

It is but strange that authorised service centers do not have the equipment to carry out a pollution check. Though they may not be permitted to certify, at the least, they should be equipped to check so that they could correct it.
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Old 5th November 2018, 14:29   #49
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Default Re: Supreme Court bans 15-year old petrol & 10-year old diesel vehicles in Delhi-NCR

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Originally Posted by hserus View Post
They should ban farming in Punjab and Haryana if the farmers don’t stop burning crop waste.
Yep, thats the way to go about it. Who cares about poor farmers and food security - a man's got to drive his cars!

And quite amazing how the smoke from the burning fields spares Punjab/ Haryana but chooses to pollute only Delhi.

Last edited by rrsteer : 5th November 2018 at 14:34.
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Old 5th November 2018, 14:56   #50
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Default Re: Supreme Court bans 15-year old petrol & 10-year old diesel vehicles in Delhi-NCR

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Originally Posted by rrsteer View Post
And quite amazing how the smoke from the burning fields spares Punjab/ Haryana but chooses to pollute only Delhi.
Yeah. It doesn't affect anybody else. Just Delhi.
By the by, take a look here:
https://app.cpcbccr.com/AQI_India/
Check rohtak, or in further reaches of UP.
Definitely all is well.
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Old 5th November 2018, 15:07   #51
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Default Re: Supreme Court bans 15-year old petrol & 10-year old diesel vehicles in Delhi-NCR

Quote:
And quite amazing how the smoke from the burning fields spares Punjab/ Haryana but chooses to pollute only Delhi.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mayankk View Post
Yeah. It doesn't affect anybody else. Just Delhi.
By the by, take a look here:
https://app.cpcbccr.com/AQI_India/
Check rohtak, or in further reaches of UP.
Definitely all is well.
Crop burning causes pollution. Yes. But that's not why Delhi is a polluted city.
Given the reality of the city - 20-25 m people crammed in 500 odd sq miles of a developing country - it will be polluted even if it were to be located in the middle of an ocean.
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Old 5th November 2018, 15:39   #52
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Default Re: Supreme Court bans 15-year old petrol & 10-year old diesel vehicles in Delhi-NCR

Looking at such kind of laws and administrative reactions based on advise from Judiciary; does it not make sense to switch to radio taxi / uber et. al.
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Old 13th November 2018, 15:19   #53
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Default Re: Supreme Court bans 15-year old petrol & 10-year old diesel vehicles in Delhi-NCR

I'd like to know how long can modern diesel cars run reliably given our roads and other conditions. By run reliably, i mean with regular maintenance of wear and tear parts and filters replacements without leading to unexpected break downs every now and then.
Is 10 years 2 lakh kilometres a fair figure to consider?

I usually resist the temptation to change or upgrade a car as long as it can run. There's a saying in Telangana - chaarana kodi ki baaraana masala; which translates to 75 paise masala for 25 paise chicken. New car becomes imperative when the regular maintenance and upkeep costs surpass the residual value of the car.

Last edited by bharatbits : 13th November 2018 at 15:24.
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Old 13th November 2018, 15:28   #54
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Default Re: Supreme Court bans 15-year old petrol & 10-year old diesel vehicles in Delhi-NCR

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Originally Posted by bharatbits View Post
Is 10 years 2 lakh kilometres a fair figure to consider?
Yes with regular maintenance and strictly following the manufacturers guidelines any diesel car can easily clock 2 lakh kilometers. My 2011 Safari dicor is currently at 160k with no major surgeries apart from general suspension, clutch overhaul and tire change. I shifted from mineral to synthetic and again back to mineral oil and can confirm car performs better with synthetic.

Edit: But I am happy to scrap it after 10 years which is more than enough for any car plying on road. There are technology changes, rust, paint, engine, components all getting degenerated over time. It is not wise to replace each and everything after certain point of time.

Last edited by roby_dk : 13th November 2018 at 15:32.
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Old 14th November 2018, 14:06   #55
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Default Re: Supreme Court bans 15-year old petrol & 10-year old diesel vehicles in Delhi-NCR

EPCA may ban all non-CNG vehicles in Delhi-NCR

According to a media report, the Environment Pollution Control Authority (EPCA) has said that it may ban all non-CNG vehicles in the Delhi-NCR region if air quality deteriorates further. These include both private and commercial vehicles.

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The Chairman of the EPCA has reportedly written to the chief secretary of Delhi, Haryana and Uttar Pradesh voicing his concern over rising pollution levels in the region. He said that implementing the ban would be difficult as it is not possible to distinguish between diesel and other fuelled vehicles. However, CNG vehicles do have fuel stickers and all public transport vehicles are powered by CNG, which would be allowed to ply on the roads.

Earlier this month, the Supreme Court had banned 15-year old petrol and 10-year old diesel vehicles from plying on the streets of NCR.

Source: NDTV

Link to Team-BHP News
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Old 2nd December 2018, 00:42   #56
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Default Re: Supreme Court bans 15-year old petrol & 10-year old diesel vehicles in Delhi-NCR

And the snowballing starts. Haryana follows suit.

Quote:
The Central Pollution Control Board has come out with a list of nearly six lakh diesel and petrol vehicles that are over 10-year-old and will not be allowed to ply in Haryana.
The list gives details of the registration mark series, name of the authority and registration numbers of these vehicles plying in Haryana, including NCR cities of Gurgaon, Sonepat and Bahadurgarh.
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/ha...na/690320.html
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Old 2nd December 2018, 07:42   #57
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Default Re: Supreme Court bans 15-year old petrol & 10-year old diesel vehicles in Delhi-NCR

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
It doesn't mean they will die = no. Car penetration levels in India are woefully low and there will be ample demand for these used cars outside of the big cities.
You need to experience this process of selling a car outside of Delhi NCR owing to the NGT rule. Its a disaster and people are low balling you like anything. And I am sure there are sellers who sell owing to the panic at such mind mindbogglingly low prices. I am facing it with my Altis. Toyota label, extremely well maintained and a car with decent following - all these factors mean nothing.

So yes barring the Innovas and Fortuners, there is no resale value left of your car.

The problem of pollution is there. But banning older cars is not the way to address it. Just like in my case. The day I sell the car, I will buy a new one. Most people will. The difference in emissions combined would be negligible. What are they doing about commercial vehicles? Two wheelers? Refund policy for those extra 5 years of road tax collected from diesel car owners? Any other policy in place to check the pollution levels?

The only action I see is on banning old private cars and banning Diwali crackers. If only such knee jerk diktats could work. Sorry for the rant.

Last edited by drmohitg : 2nd December 2018 at 07:50.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 11:30   #58
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Default Re: Supreme Court bans 15-year old petrol & 10-year old diesel vehicles in Delhi-NCR

I think we panic and blame vehicles for pollution that is caused by other factors.

Was looking at the National Air Quality Index data right now (on a Sunday morning at 11 am). Anand Vihar in Delhi is at 393, Nehru Stadium is at 304, and Vasant Kunj is at 241, all in the hazardous range. The vast difference can only be due to local sources of pollution - most likely that caused by traffic or construction dust.

Mumbai Bandra is at 180 - terrible for a city blessed with the sea breeze.

In Bangalore, the Silk Board Junction (a notoriously bad traffic area) is at 67 while the City Railway station is at 120

And Velachery in Chennai is at 44.

When I look at cities in UP, we have Agra at 305, Kanpur at 312 and Lucknow at 366. Patna is over 400, and Calcutta at almost 350. So the problem of pollution seems to be a North Indian one, with Bombay following suit very quickly.

The fact is that while Delhi has a lot more traffic than other cities, Chennai and Bangalore don't have much better traffic than Bombay does, especially on a Sunday morning.

This is not due to cars. Bans on cars won't make a difference. And I agree with i74JS who mentioned that we need to also consider the pollution caused in making cars - scrapping cars early may have a net negative impact on pollution when you consider the fact that producing cars causes pollution.

Of course, we should have a better regime of inspections of vehicles - with PUC centers that give fake certificates being held accountable if cars fail a test conducted by the police or PCB authorities. Such tests take just 10 minutes - I don't see why random testing by the government for cars on the road cannot be introduced.
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Old 12th December 2018, 13:58   #59
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Default Re: Supreme Court bans 15-year old petrol & 10-year old diesel vehicles in Delhi-NCR

Cross-posting from Vintage and Classic Car Definition: India thread. Although the question is slightly tangential to this thread, the order being discussed here is the main driver behind this query.

The following thread talks about how "Vintage" cars are exempted from the 15-year ban being implemented in certain metros:
NGT exempts vintage cars from ban on 15-year old vehicles

Assuming we have a legally valid definition of what can be considered a "Vintage" car, how can any of our old favorites ever reach that designation with the ban already in place ?

In my opinion, cars like the jelly-bean Maruti Zen already have a somewhat cult status and would someday be considered a classic/vintage car in its own right. But when the current rules prohibit having the car on road, how can it ever reach a "Vintage" status unless the owner is willing to maintain it in a locked up state in a garage for a long period of time until the criteria is met ?

In other countries, there are different checks and restrictions in place regarding prolonged ownership of such vehicles.

It feels like we are formulating policies without taking all variables into account.
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Old 12th December 2018, 15:37   #60
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Default Re: Supreme Court bans 15-year old petrol & 10-year old diesel vehicles in Delhi-NCR

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Originally Posted by drmohitg View Post
You need to experience this process of selling a car outside of Delhi NCR owing to the NGT rule. Its a disaster and people are low balling you like anything.
I think resale value is directly proportional to the number of new similar cars being sold or that's what I can make out. If there are fewer buyers for a particular model when new, there will be even less buying the same in resales most of the time.

Crossposting from this thread

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/stree...ml#post4511080 (Roads in Delhi and NCR)

14,000 fewer vehicles entering Gurugram everyday after the opening of KMP expressway

In my opinion, this number could have been much higher had Government thought about some connecting roads to places like Dwarka/ Airport and Gurgaon. Now, one will have to go all the way to Panchgaon and come back, don't know how difficult is to connect Dwarka to this new Highway?
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