[gshanky]

@ himanshugoswami - your news sounds too good to be true for me. However imo it is safe to say that we have lots of optimists in tbhp with regards to TATA vehicles and Safari in particular. Any news about improving Grande as well? Mk3 perhaps?

Other than this all the talk about "Safari being a true SUV whereas Scorpio (and potentially W201) is not" is baloney. Leaving ARIA aside M&M has better vehicles in the UV segment across the board. Sales nos prove that between bolero, xylo and scorpio. I give more credit to M&M for going to extra mile and putting a slushbox into Scorpio.

[suman]

Originally Posted by gshanky

Other than this all the talk about "Safari being a true SUV whereas Scorpio (and potentially W201) is not" is baloney. Leaving ARIA aside M&M has better vehicles in the UV segment across the board. Sales nos prove that between bolero, xylo and scorpio. I give more credit to M&M for going to extra mile and putting a slushbox into Scorpio.

The W201 is essentially a soft-roader with AWD but I guess you know that already? At the most, one can pitch it as a competitor to the Aria. Not the Safari. But TEHO.

Also, I trust you have been following a few odd items that keep popping up on the forum w.r.t. recent M&M quality, even on the top end Scorpios - and this includes a few unfortunate cases of the 4x4s as well, one of them being equipped with that slushbox.

Yes, the so-called "niggles" have hitherto surfaced more on TATA vehicles but who knows what the future holds?

[shortbread]

@ gshanky,

Its not baloney its basic facts, the Safari is a better SUV than the Scorpio by all means and both being based on a ladder frame chassis will be stronger off road than the W201.

The optimism is primarily due to the progress Tata has made across its line up, the Vista, Manza and Aria. If you have gone the extra mile good on you, keep going!!

[gshanky]

Originally Posted by suman

The W201 is essentially a soft-roader with AWD but I guess you know that already? At the most, one can pitch it as a competitor to the Aria. Not the Safari. But TEHO.

Also, I trust you have been following a few odd items that keep popping up on the forum w.r.t. recent M&M quality, even on the top end Scorpios - and this includes a few unfortunate cases of the 4x4s as well, one of them being equipped with that slushbox.

Yes, the so-called "niggles" have hitherto surfaced more on TATA vehicles but who knows what the future holds?

I understand about W201. It is positioned against ARIA so comparing it with safari / Merlin is moot. If we compare apples to apples - as in Safari to Scorpio one can easily find the differences in amount of niggles. Consumers like these vehicles for different reasons.

Originally Posted by shortbread

@ gshanky,

Its not baloney its basic facts, the Safari is a better SUV than the Scorpio by all means and both being based on a ladder frame chassis will be stronger off road than the W201.

The optimism is primarily due to the progress Tata has made across its line up, the Vista, Manza and Aria. If you have gone the extra mile good on you, keep going!!

Regarding basic facts, first off we have to wait for W201 release before making grandiose statements. Remember how a lot of members stupidly used to reject TATA vehicles at face value even before launch and even specs revealed? So, lets wait until we know more about Merlin and W201. shall we?

Secondly I have read quite a few comparisons between Scorpio and Safari (you may have read more). However from what I know so far - many arguments were about how Safari is good in space, comfort, ride and handling. All points I agree. But is that all an SUV make? I even created a new thread for tbhpians to communicate what they think is a definition of SUV and why one is better than other. If you want, we could take the argument there.

With regards to optimism I welcome and support it.

[PAVAN KADAM]

Originally Posted by gshanky

I understand about W201. It is positioned against ARIA so comparing it with safari / Merlin is moot. If we compare apples to apples - as in Safari to Scorpio one can easily find the differences in amount of niggles. Consumers like these vehicles for different reasons.



Regarding basic facts, first off we have to wait for W201 release before making grandiose statements. Remember how a lot of members stupidly used to reject TATA vehicles at face value even before launch and even specs revealed? So, lets wait until we know more about Merlin and W201. shall we?

Secondly I have read quite a few comparisons between Scorpio and Safari (you may have read more). However from what I know so far - many arguments were about how Safari is good in space, comfort, ride and handling. All points I agree. But is that all an SUV make? I even created a new thread for tbhpians to communicate what they think is a definition of SUV and why one is better than other. If you want, we could take the argument there.

With regards to optimism I welcome and support it.

I think we are taking this discussion a way too much beyond the basic content of this thread.

The Merlin discussed is supposed to be the Best at what it is, we still have not seen how the actual SUV looks, and what it holds, but the reports and findings have been positive so far. Why get a Scorpio here, its not even a proper SUV, lets take this discussion over to that thread.

And for your Information there are Twice More Safari's owners on the forum than the Scorpio, basically we guys buy the Safari by HEART more than the mind, and we are happy with that, so no regrets, PEACE.

[gshanky]

Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM

I think we are taking this discussion a way too much beyond the basic content of this thread.

The Merlin discussed is supposed to be the Best at what it is, we still have not seen how the actual SUV looks, and what it holds, but the reports and findings have been positive so far. Why get a Scorpio here, its not even a proper SUV, lets take this discussion over to that thread.

And for your Information there are Twice More Safari's owners on the forum than the Scorpio, basically we guys buy the Safari by HEART more than the mind, and we are happy with that, so no regrets, PEACE.

I agree, it was my bad to get frustrated about the "TRUE/PUCCA SUV" adjectives given to Safari / Merlin.

If you really know how and why Scorpio is not an SUV, please share it here - http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ining-suv.html

As I said in my post, consumers buy different vehicles for different reasons. And all reasons are channelled through brains. You may feel better by sticking with the figure of speech about buying with heart. But at the end of the day if it makes you happy, thats all that matters

I very well know about this forum and the safari owners. However in our country there are 3 to 4 times Scorpio owners than Safari owners. so PEACE.

[Eddy]

Note from Support: Lets keep the discussion focused on the Merlin.

[kpbhatt]

Can we just talk about the Merlin and take the offtopic discussions elsewhere -- thanks...

[4x4addict]

Originally Posted by himanshugoswami

what he does reitierate every time we talk is that the merlin will EAT the Fortuner for breakfast in almost all parameters- he is very very proud of the product and according to him the quality will be in the Aria league.

The Aria has already eaten the Fortuner for breakfast, so it could be a mid morning snack for the Merlin.

I can tell you a few parameters where the Merlin won't touch the Fortuner

1) Brand Value
2) Engine, Gearbox & AWD Power Train
3) Fit & Finish
4) Cost of ownership
5) Resale Value.
6) Comfortable Third row seats.

Let's not get too carried away. Tata has to beat Mahindra first before taking the battle to Toyota. Just look at the sales numbers of their corresponding products. This is despite the fact that Tata products are generally better designed than Mahindra products.

[Trapezio]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

I can tell you a few parameters where the Merlin won't touch the Fortuner

Have you driven the Merlin? If so, please do share your experience.

[kaviprem]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

The Aria has already eaten the Fortuner for breakfast, so it could be a mid morning snack for the Merlin.

I can tell you a few parameters where the Merlin won't touch the Fortuner

1) Brand Value
2) Engine, Gearbox & AWD Power Train
3) Fit & Finish
4) Cost of ownership
5) Resale Value.
6) Comfortable Third row seats.

Let's not get too carried away. Tata has to beat Mahindra first before taking the battle to Toyota. Just look at the sales numbers of their corresponding products. This is despite the fact that Tata products are generally better designed than Mahindra products.

I dont know how sure you are to use 2 keywords while putting your opinions above "can" and "wont".

1) Brand value - Its just a myth, unfortunately, many follows it.
2) through 5) - We first need to see the vehicle launch, only then, anyone will be able to comment.
6) Who said Fortuner has comfortable 3rd row seats ? Its worse than Innova and Grande [yes, Tata Grande MKII].

Tata beating M&M is a different story and a lot of discussion going all around the web including TBHP. So, lets not pollute this thread.

Originally Posted by Trapezio

Have you driven the Merlin? If so, please do share your experience.

Well said and I just wanted to elaborate your response

Prem.

[RS_DEL]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

The Aria has already eaten the Fortuner for breakfast, so it could be a mid morning snack for the Merlin.

products are generally better designed than Mahindra products.

I agree with your point that by itself, TML cannot do what is being claimed i.e. best Toyota - this is in context of the Safari/Merlin vs Fortuner debate.

However don't you think if the TML bosses pull in the chaps from the RR subsidiary and hand over control of the project to them, they have the technical expertise to create a product that is better than the Fortuner? Will it be available at the same price point/segment or slightly higher than that of the existing Safari is moot though.

[4x4addict]

Originally Posted by Trapezio

Have you driven the Merlin? If so, please do share your experience.

I haven't but, I guess the others who are praising the product and claiming it is going to wipe out Toyota have extensive user experience.

Originally Posted by kaviprem

6) Who said Fortuner has comfortable 3rd row seats ? Its worse than Innova and Grande [yes, Tata Grande MKII]
Well said and I just wanted to elaborate your response
Prem.

Prem, I can guarantee you that forward facing third row seating in the Fortuner will be better than the side facing third row in the Merlin. Try sitting in a side facing seat of the Safari for couple of hundred kms and you will appreciate the Fortuners Third row seat. I am not comparing it to the Xylo, Innova or Grande at this point. I only brought up this point since some feel that the Merlin will be far superior to the Fortuner.

I belive Merlin will be a great product compared to Safari/Scorpio etc. All I am saying that it is too early to write off the Fortuner and Pajero yet. Tata are a long way away from being a Threat to Toyota.

[swiftnfurious]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

Prem, I can guarantee you that forward facing third row seating in the Fortuner will be better than the side facing third row in the Merlin. Try sitting in a side facing seat of the Safari for couple of hundred kms and you will appreciate the Fortuners Third row seat.

Are we yet sure that Merlin will not have front facing third row? I guess anyone would know that the front facing seat will be much more comfortable than the side facing seats.

I guess Merlin might come with front facing 3rd row. If some one has compared it, they might know the details. Or if they actually give an option for it [7 seater / 8 seater] , it would be nice !

Edit:: Looking at the effort they have put in Aria and as we read about Merlin, I believe the next gen SUV from TATA should be something really great to look forward to ! May be it can take the fight to Fortuner and the likes. I still have my reservations on Merlin. But a good improvement from Safari should be yummy even if doesn't take the competition to further levels !

[gshanky]

Originally Posted by swiftnfurious

Are we yet sure that Merlin will not have front facing third row? I guess anyone would know that the front facing seat will be much more comfortable than the side facing seats.

I guess Merlin might come with front facing 3rd row. If some one has compared it, they might know the details. Or if they actually give an option for it [7 seater / 8 seater] , it would be nice !

If merlin was built on the same platform as Safari I am not sure if it will have a front facing 3rd row. However if it is built on ARIA we get the 3rd row but still a bit smaller I guess.

Front facing 3rd row is better for 7 passenger travel than side facing. Hope TATA delivers the front facing 3rd row.