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Old 19th July 2018, 06:07   #4891
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Originally Posted by Parth46 View Post
I'm slightly confused about which synthetic oil to use in my 4th gen iVTEC Honda City, which has done only 21K kms till date.
To my knowledge Honda was using 5w40 on their petrol iVTECs and then switched their recommended oil to a low viscosity 0w20.

What does your owners manual say? In any case it is the exact same engine so a 5w40 should work very well indeed.

Shell Helix Ultra 5w40, Mobil1 0w40 or maybe this one too

Amsoil 5W-40 European Car Formula Classic ESP Synthetic Motor Oil https://www.amazon.in/dp/B01DETS2WQ/..._EZ9tBbF2TFXWR
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Old 19th July 2018, 06:23   #4892
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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To my knowledge Honda was using 5w40 on their petrol iVTECs and then switched their recommended oil to a low viscosity 0w20.
This leads me to some questions. Are all the oils same? Are viscosity grades a scam? Is the synthetic vs mineral debate a hoax?

How can honda just shift to a lower viscosity oil out of nowhere? Doesn't it get bothered from the fact that lower viscosity oil won't protect the engine very well in harsh indian conditions?

Why do manufacturers even bother to recommend certain viscosity oils for their cars' engines when they can just change them whenever they like?

I THINK CAR ENTHUSIASTS ARE BEING DUPED INTO A VERY OBVIOUS SCAM.

P.S. Being a car enthusiast, I'll still put Mobil 1 0W40 in car.
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Old 19th July 2018, 06:49   #4893
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

Not "out of nowhere".

1. The 5w40, 0w20 etc are temperature ranges.

2. Viscosity is a totally different property of the oil

3. No manufacturer changes guidelines without a ton of tests and data

4. The recommended oil grade, approval standards (which oil manufacturers can certify themselves on) will be the lowest spec that lets the engine run reliably at least cost

Don't fill oil randomly. At the very least there's also trace metal, sulphate etc contents that will matter. That's not to say you can't change the oil spec used but you'll need to do a lot more research than just blindly concluding that us all knowing car enthusiasts are being scammed by the evil manufacturers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rshrey22 View Post
This leads me to some questions. Are all the oils same? Are viscosity grades a scam? Is the synthetic vs mineral debate a hoax?

How can honda just shift to a lower viscosity oil out of nowhere? Doesn't it get bothered from the fact that lower viscosity oil won't protect the engine very well in harsh indian conditions?

Why do manufacturers even bother to recommend certain viscosity oils for their cars' engines when they can just change them whenever they like?

I THINK CAR ENTHUSIASTS ARE BEING DUPED INTO A VERY OBVIOUS SCAM.

P.S. Being a car enthusiast, I'll still put Mobil 1 0W40 in car.
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Old 19th July 2018, 09:29   #4894
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Originally Posted by Parth46 View Post
My main requirements are the benefits of a revv happy and smooth, vibration free engine, with not a major hit to fuel economy.

Cheers!
Having tried Molygen 5W30, I can say its best avoided in a Honda. Though it works perfectly well on a MJD.

Your best bet would be Mobil 1 5W30 ESP fully synthetic.
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Old 19th July 2018, 09:39   #4895
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Having tried Molygen 5W30, I can say its best avoided in a Honda. Though it works perfectly well on a MJD.

Your best bet would be Mobil 1 5W30 ESP fully synthetic.
Guys, 5w30 is best avoided in a car that is meant for 5w40 (or specially formulated 0w20).

The Mobil 1 ESP is quite expensive and is meant for cars with specific kinds of catalytic converter.

for the City iVTEC, just stick to a good 5w40 or 0w40. Shell 5w40 will work just fine for this.
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Old 19th July 2018, 09:59   #4896
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Originally Posted by Rshrey22 View Post
This leads me to some questions. Are all the oils same? Are viscosity grades a scam? Is the synthetic vs mineral debate a hoax?
No for all the questions. xW20 is thinner than xW30 is thinner than xW40 is thinner than xW50 is thinner than xW60. Synthetic and mineral isn't a hoax, GTL and PAO is held in high regards by BITOG community.

Quote:
How can honda just shift to a lower viscosity oil out of nowhere? Doesn't it get bothered from the fact that lower viscosity oil won't protect the engine very well in harsh indian conditions?
Better economy (CAFE ratings).Yes, and also depends on engine operating RPM. Oil pump is engine driven and at any given RPM thinner oil (xW30 or xW20) provides a thinner barrier than thicker (xW40 or xW50); at lower RPM barrier this is gap even more pronounced.

Do read BITOG, most of your questions have been answered there and there are some valuable posts in there with people from this industry and with reference material.

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P.S. Being a car enthusiast, I'll still put Mobil 1 0W40 in car.
Good choice, for our kind of driving and temperatures xW40 is the best.
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Old 19th July 2018, 10:48   #4897
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Originally Posted by hserus View Post

Shell Helix Ultra 5w40, Mobil1 0w40 or maybe this one too
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panky12345 View Post
Having tried Molygen 5W30, I can say its best avoided in a Honda. Though it works perfectly well on a MJD.

Your best bet would be Mobil 1 5W30 ESP fully synthetic.
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Originally Posted by Sankar View Post
Good choice, for our kind of driving and temperatures xW40 is the best.
Thanks guys for all your inputs. So Liqui Moly 5W30 is a no-no then, atleast for my car, even though I really wanted to try it given the rave reviews in this forum. Will choose between SHU 5W40 and Mobil 1. As mentioned in my previous post, I've used SHU5W40 in my petrol i10 with superb results, I'm just wary of how the 40 weight will impact the petrol Honda.

Even the Mobil 1 range has two key options - 5W30 and 0W40. Both are in the recommended range per the owner's manual. Which one would be better out of these two?

Thanks a lot for the suggestions.
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Old 19th July 2018, 11:00   #4898
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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In my Crysta 2.8 I was using Mobile DelvacMX 15W40 CI4+ diesel engine oil since the last 6000Kms which I put in right after the 30000Km servicing. I settled for Delvac MX since I didn't get Rimula R4 which was my first choice.

Enigne was sounding gruff since last 1000Km or so and the oil looked black when I pulled the dipstick. So today got the oil drained at FNG the Delvac MX after 6000Kms and the engine was sounding gruff. Found the oil to be charcoal black in colour when drained and I think 5000 to 6000KM is tops for this oil. I used the same oil this time since I had another 7.5L can of Delvac MX remaining with me, and put a new genuine filter also. Now the engine is sounding nice and smooth like like it usually does on new oil. I will be shifting to Motul Synthetic (already in stock) after another 5000Kms, didn't want to waste the Delvac MX.

I noticed there is NO oil consumption, and the level remains between higher and lower mark at the middle. Just mentioning this point since my ex Polo GT TDI did consume oil and needed an in between top up, which is the norm as far as VW's go.
Hey Sankar, where did you get this oil from? Any online source? I am looking for Mobil Delvac MX too in the 15W40 grade
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Old 19th July 2018, 11:02   #4899
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Originally Posted by Parth46 View Post
I'm a Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40 fan, having used it in my petrol Grand i10, and the level of difference it made to the overall smoothness and revv happy nature of that 1.2 kappa had to be experienced!
I'm a SHU fan too. 9 years of continuous use has convinced me of its suitability for any car that can accept an xW-40 oil. Best part? It doesn't come at a fancy price like some other synthetics like M1 ESP. Read on for why I think so.

Quote:
I want to go down the same path and use the same oil in my City petrol, the only thing I'm unsure of is the belief that a 40 weight oil doesn't sit very well with Honda petrols, and it might hurt fuel economy, and more importantly, the overall revv happy nature of the car might get impacted. Also, that a 5W30 weight oil is the best for a petrol Honda. Honda themselves recommend and use a 0W20 oil currently for the City, and even though claim it's fully synthetic, the price and overall quality of the oil makes me believe it's a semi synth at best.
I'd say stick to manufacturer's recommendations in the cars manual. If it says 0W-20 so beit. Do not use thicker oil than necessary in order to extract maximum fuel economy.

Quote:
I want to try out the 5W-30 molygen.
LM Molygen is a semi-synthetic and has very good reviews, as have Mobil 1 5W-30, 0W-40, Amsoil Signature and SHU 5W-40. So you can't go wrong with any of these oils. **BUT** since Honda recommends 0W-20 I suggest you go only 1 step up the viscosity ladder and use 5W-30 from Mobil 1 or Amsoil Signature.

I don't really recommend Mobil 1 5W-30 ESP (I'm using it after 9 years of SHU 5W-40) only because it comes at a premium compared to Mobil 1 5W-30 (standard), Amsoil and other synthetics in its class. ESP is most suited to cars that require Exhaust System Protection (ESP) oils. I will probably change to Motul Xcess 5W-40 or Amsoil Signature 5W-30 this year. I found insignificant changes to fuel economy, in fractions of a kmpl, with a 5W-30 oil. That small increase in FE is not a factor that is high on my must-have list.

Liqui Moly has few full synthetics and most oils sold here are semi synthetic, but that has no bearing on the excellence and performance of all LM products.

Last edited by R2D2 : 19th July 2018 at 11:03.
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Old 19th July 2018, 11:09   #4900
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Originally Posted by humyum View Post
Hey Sankar, where did you get this oil from? Any online source? I am looking for Mobil Delvac MX too in the 15W40 grade
I bought this from my regular oil shop, he sourced it from the Mobil 1 dealer after he failed to get me Rimula R4 15W40 due to some problem (at that time) at the distributor's end. This and Rimula comes in 7.5 liter buckets which is the exact amount Crysta needs for each change with a new filter.

I have filled this with again for another 5000KMs and with the new oil in the engine is very nice and smooth. This time I am going to note down the KM when it becomes rough.
ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil-20180222_203120.jpg

ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil-20180222_203141.jpg

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Originally Posted by R2D2 View Post
I'd say stick to manufacturer's recommendations in the cars manual. If it says 0W-20 so beit. Do not use thicker oil than necessary in order to extract maximum fuel economy.
Thinner oil yields better fuel economy, not thicker.

Last edited by Sankar : 19th July 2018 at 11:20.
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Old 19th July 2018, 11:13   #4901
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Originally Posted by R2D2 View Post
LM Molygen is a semi-synthetic and has very good reviews, as have Mobil 1 5W-30, 0W-40, Amsoil Signature and SHU 5W-40. So you can't go wrong with any of these oils. **BUT** since Honda recommends 0W-20 I suggest you go only 1 step up the viscosity ladder and use 5W-30 from Mobil 1 or Amsoil Signature.

Liqui Moly has few full synthetics and most oils sold here are semi synthetic, but that has no bearing on the excellence and performance of all LM products.
Thanks for your advise. So essentially I can choose either one from LM5W30, Mobil 1 5W30 (standard) and SHU 5W40, without any issues, with the small caveat that a xW30 will be closer to OEM spec compared to xW40. Actually, all of them are within the recommended grades, per the manual. Given Bangalore temperature range, I'm thinking even 5w40 should be good enough.
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Old 19th July 2018, 11:13   #4902
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

Few months back i shifted from using MASS ssupplied castrol 5w40 oil in my sx4 to mobil MGDO 5w40 .With the castrol oil the car engine felt noisy after about 5k kms. Mobil mgdo is whats running in my car right now and it has crossed 5k kms and i feel the engine noise has increased a bit, the oil is pitch black making me want to drain and refill fresh oil.Although the can says fully synthetic i doubt at 1800 if that's possible. This time i am going in for shell helix ultra 5w40,already ordered and will have it delivered ita day or too from amazon.

Couple of service guys i spoke to suggested to replace engine oil at 6 to 7k kms and not longer. Am ok with doing that as i don't want to use the oil for 10k kms for sure.Whats is the drain period i could expect from Shell Helix ultra?
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Old 19th July 2018, 11:14   #4903
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

Last couple of posts tend to indicate that Mobil 1 ESP 5W30 is an expensive affair. Well I got it for Rs. 3650/- for a 4 L pack (offline, through authorized Mobil dealer here in Delhi). Also, the difference between Mobil 1 ESP and Mobil 1 Standard is miniscual.

Last edited by panky12345 : 19th July 2018 at 11:19.
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Old 19th July 2018, 11:33   #4904
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Although the can says fully synthetic i doubt at 1800 if that's possible. This time i am going in for shell helix ultra 5w40,already ordered and will have it delivered ita day or too from amazon.

Couple of service guys i spoke to suggested to replace engine oil at 6 to 7k kms and not longer. Am ok with doing that as i don't want to use the oil for 10k kms for sure.Whats is the drain period i could expect from Shell Helix ultra?
Firstly ANY diesel engine will cause an oil to turn black way faster than a petrol engine of the same capacity. Diesel combustion is dirty there's no way around that. Hence the DPFs and other similar pollution reduction devices in modern cars. Oil turning black in a diesel engine is not the correct way to assess the remaining life of the oil. Since you have a diesel engine you'd have been better off with a diesel spec oil. SHU 5W-40 is API CF which is the bare minimum diesel oil spec and redundant. On the other hand it's petrol spec is API SN the latest for petrol engines. It clearly indicates the oils use case.

There are plenty of diesel engine oil suggestions in this thread:

Diesel engine oils

Quote:
Originally Posted by panky12345 View Post
Last couple of posts tend to indicate that Mobil 1 ESP 5W30 is expensive affair. Well I got it for Rs. 3650/- for a 4 L pack (offline, through authorized Mobil dealer here in Delhi). Also, the difference between Mobil 1 ESP and Mobil 1 Standard is miniscual.
On Amazon SHU costs Rs 3K, standard M1 5W-30 is about Rs 3200, ditto for Motul x-cess 5-40 while M1 ESP is 3800. I do not believe the premium is justified.

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Originally Posted by Parth46 View Post
....with the small caveat that a xW30 will be closer to OEM spec compared to xW40.
Yes, if the car takes 0W-20 from the factory go to an xW-30. Don't use xW-40 as far as possible for the sake of fuel economy.
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Old 19th July 2018, 12:12   #4905
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

This is why i would not use a thin oil in any low RPM high torque engine (petrol or diesel and in our market more relevant to turbo diesels).

Name:  moft viscosity.jpg
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For a NA petrol which makes maximum torque higher in the RPM range usage of lower viscosity oil probably does not matter because at that high RPM oil pump is pushing that much oil to make up the oil film thickness.

In a turbo Diesel or an engine that makes most of the torque lower in the RPM range where the the oil displacement in considerably lower it is the higher viscosity that helps maintain the oil film thickness.

RPM where it makes most torque matters because that is when the combustion pressure is at the maximum, oil film thickness is the only protection the connecting rod bearings get while transferring that work into crankshaft.

Note the amount of power loss with respect to each viscosity grade. Thinner the oil lower the power loss and also higher the economy. This is why manufacturers are opting for thinner and thinner oils as it helps them meet CAFE rating and people do not hold on to their vehicles like they used to.

This is why I do not agree with Toyota when they ask to use xW30 in the torquey low revving Crysta Diesel in our climatic conditions. But down the page Crysta owner's manual says "An oil with higher viscosity (one with a higher value) may be better suited if the vehicle is operated at high speeds, or under extreme load conditions." which defines my usage.

Last edited by Sankar : 19th July 2018 at 12:27.
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