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Old 29th October 2020, 00:08   #5641
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

This isn't a query regarding synthetic Vs mineral but it pertains to engine oils in general.
(Mods please shift this to the appropriate thread if necessary.)

I just bought an activa 6g with the fuel injection system. It's an all new engine which comes with a few changes in the oil department too.

The previous 110 cc had an oil capacity of 700 ml and the manufacturer recommended change interval was 4000 km. Now this mineral oil didn't really last the whole 4k Kms and I used to change it every 1.5-2k kms.

The new engine though, has an oil capacity of only 550 ml!! and the recommended change Interval is 6000 Kms!! (150 ml lesser oil and 2k more Kms)

Granted it is a fuel injection system with various sensors to monitor everything, but it's still a tiny (forced) air cooled engine cramped under the seat.

With max temperatures crossing 42°c in Hyderabad, I really can't imagine how honda expects the oil to last 6k Kms. The recommended oil is 5w30 Jaso MA API SJ or above (it cannot be energy/resource conserving oil) OR 10w30 Jaso MB API SJ

I'd expect this mineral oil to shear down and lose its properties and viscosity wayy before 6k kms. Heck even consume a little of the already less amount of oil.

I'd like to know your thoughts on this topic and what interval I should choose to change the oil.

What justification did the engineers have to make a drastic change like this? It can't solely be for environmental purposes.

There is no information or posts regarding this online, only people yapping about why the 6g didn't get a digital console or alloy wheels.

Last edited by Taha Mir : 29th October 2020 at 00:11. Reason: Additional details
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Old 29th October 2020, 00:58   #5642
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

^^ not exactly Apple to Apple comparison but the replacement interval recommended by Honda for the stock oil 10W-30 (Honda stunner) is also 6000 kms. That is normal mineral oil and my motorcycle is not even fuel injected one. It’s a 2010 carbureted motorcycle and Honda recommended 6K kms then as well. However, I change it around 2000-2500 kms. Once I went on till 3800 kms and the engine along with the gear shift became too rough to bear. So, in my experience, if using the normal mineral oil, stick to the 2-2.5k drain internal. I don’t think fuel injection technology would make that any different. I used to easily manage at least 5000 kms smoothly on synthetic oils though.

And 550 ml of total oil capacity is really a shocker for me! Less oil means less amount of liquid to ‘flow away’ the heat generated inside the engine; which means higher degradation of oil compared to higher volume. I would really like to know what is the rationale behind this by Honda.
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Old 29th October 2020, 06:58   #5643
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

I am not sure either but cvt automatic geared scooters need JASO MB spec oil though MA/MA2 (which is used for wet clutch manual geared bikes) will also do in a pinch.

There are fewer of these on the market but a good selection still ranging from HP to Mobil to Motul / Liqui Moly.

Search for JASO MB on Amazon and then make sure the oil can says JASO MB.
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Old 29th October 2020, 16:26   #5644
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

Oil spec for activa 6g
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ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil-screenshot_20201029162504367_cn.wps.xiaomi.abroad.lite.jpg  

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Old 29th October 2020, 16:52   #5645
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taha Mir View Post
Oil spec for activa 6g
Yes so a 10w30 or 10w40 JASO MB should fit the bill.

https://www.amazon.in/Motul-Scooter-...dp/B01ESPB3QC/

https://www.amazon.in/GULF-Pride-Sco...dp/B07TPLCLC9/

https://www.amazon.in/LIQUI-MOLY-208...dp/B07X2SRSQ9/

https://www.amazon.in/Mobil-Super-Sc...dp/B07KML6TLK/
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Old 11th December 2020, 00:48   #5646
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

I'm taking the Honda City (2012 AT) for a service this month, and had almost fixated on the Shell Helix Ultra fully synthetic.

But on further pondering and understanding my usage, I was wondering if fully synthetic with it's long drain intervals is really needed?

Shell Helix Ultra costs a steep 2.6K and I'm sure mineral oil would cost a fraction of that.

Keeping aside the costs, the drain interval of 7500-10000 KMs would take me years and years to cross.

Most of my usage is within the city limits, with occasional trips of 300-400 KMs (that too maybe once in 40-50 days).

Even if my lady luck smiles and I do happen to plan a long road trip (1000+) can I bank of the mineral oil keeping up the performance levels considering it would be within it's drain limits?

I'd like to change the oil 3 times with a drain interval of 3000-4000 instead of just once in 10K KMs. In that way there's a high chance that I'll have fresher oil more frequently.

Is this all making sense?
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Old 11th December 2020, 01:22   #5647
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taha Mir View Post
Oil spec for activa 6g
I'm really shocked to see that the new generation Activa actually requires 550ml of oil. I own a Hero Maestro which has the same powertrain as of a Activa and Hero recommends oil change at every 6000kms with topup at every 3000kms. The recommended grade is 10W30 JASO MA(mineral based oil). I don't understand why manufacturers allow for such long drain intervals.

Also I hope that they have resolved the famous Valve cover gasket issue. The valve cover gasket would start leaking and that means that you will loose your oil and eventually after 500-1200 kms all your oil is gone. One really has to keep a close look at the oil level. And with the newer engine with reduced oil capacity will make only matters worse.
I have replaced the valve cover gasket 4-5 times over the course of 6 years and almost 36,000kms and the problem appears again and again.
I request everyone to have a look at their valve covers and oil levels.

This is how my engine looks with the plastic covers removed.

ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil-img_20201211_011218.jpg

Abhishek.

Last edited by abhi9044 : 11th December 2020 at 01:24. Reason: Adding more details
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Old 11th December 2020, 08:26   #5648
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

Quote:
Originally Posted by ManasN95 View Post
I'm taking the Honda City (2012 AT) for a service this month, and had almost fixated on the Shell Helix Ultra fully synthetic.

But on further pondering and understanding my usage, I was wondering if fully synthetic with it's long drain intervals is really needed?

Shell Helix Ultra costs a steep 2.6K and I'm sure mineral oil would cost a fraction of that.


Is this all making sense?
You should definitely try synthetic oil at least for once. The cost difference between mineral and synthetic oils won't be more than 1K, and based on my personal experience, I can say that the engine runs a lot smoother with synthetic oil as compared to mineral oil, being a north Indian, I get to experience the harshness of both the winters and the summers and with synthetic oil, cold start is almost a painless experience, synthetic oil holds good in summer as well. Putting the drain interval aside, I would definitely invest 1K extra for smoother driving experience.
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Old 11th December 2020, 09:22   #5649
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

Quote:
Originally Posted by ManasN95 View Post
But on further pondering and understanding my usage, I was wondering if fully synthetic with it's long drain intervals is really needed?

Shell Helix Ultra costs a steep 2.6K and I'm sure mineral oil would cost a fraction of that.

Keeping aside the costs, the drain interval of 7500-10000 KMs would take me years and years to cross.

Is this all making sense?
No, it doesn't.

Because, the fundamental rule is, you change the oil at the car maker's recommended distance/months, whichever occurs first. So, if your recommended interval is 10k KM / 12 months, that is what you should adhere to. Even if your car runs just 4k km in those 12 months. Check your manual and see if they differentiate between synthetic and mineral oils while mentioning oil change intervals. If they don't, you shouldn't too. A friend who is the works manager with a popular MASS in Chennai once quipped "Sir, even if you fill your engine with molten gold, it should be changed once every 10k KM or one year!"

My car does about 4.5k km a year. I change the oil every 12 months, whether I used Helix Ultra or Mobil 1 or Shell HX 7 during the previous fill. HX 7 is semi synthetic, is very good and costs ~ Rs 500-550 per litre. So, you can go with it if you don't want to drain the synthetic oil after low running. In fact if your running during that period will be less than the Honda recommended drain distance, the regular oil they fill at the workshop will be good enough. A semisynthetic will increase your peace of mind.
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Old 11th December 2020, 10:06   #5650
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

[quote=Gansan;4951756In fact if your running during that period will be less than the Honda recommended drain distance, the regular oil they fill at the workshop will be good enough. A semisynthetic will increase your peace of mind.[/QUOTE]

None of the OEMs fill mineral these days for small sedans. Cheap group 3 synthetics, or syn blends at times for the older models in their stable.
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Old 11th December 2020, 11:07   #5651
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taha Mir View Post
Oil spec for activa 6g
Interesting observation Taha Mir. Thanks for bringing up this point.

"Inadequate" was my first reaction upon reading the oil quantity. But if we compare this with car engine, this is what it comes to:

Car engine with 4 cylinders of 78 mm bore, 83 mm stroke and DOHC will have at least 8 to 10 times more surface area to be lubricated compared to a scooter engine having 50 mm bore and 63 mm stroke. Both engines having spark ignition.

So if the car can do 10,000 km on 3.5 lit of oil, then 0.6 lit of oil shall be good enough for 6000 km on a scooter engine. In fact, the 600 cc oil in the scooter engine will be still undergo less number of circulations compared to 3.5 lit of a car engine.

There are other factors too, like higher rpm of scooter engine compared to a car engine, more number of cold starts typically, air cooling (as against water cooling in car engines). But prima facie, 600 cc appears to be adequate. It is a bit less when compared to the present practice of 700 cc, but must be adequate.

I don't think Honda will take a chance here. In fact, we may even see other manufacturers following the same trend in future.

Last edited by Rahul Bhalgat : 11th December 2020 at 11:10.
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Old 11th December 2020, 11:25   #5652
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

^^ The Splendor engine is more or less similar as the Activa engine. It uses 900 ml of oil and the recommended oil change interval used to be 3 months / 2500 km. It was 20W40 oil earlier, but later they brought in a semi synthetic oil 10W30 and recommended 4000 km drain intervals.

But the fact was later model engines never lasted for even half as long as the earlier ones did before needing a rebuild. I know of bikes that did 1.5 lac km before a rebuild. Mine did 1 lac before a rebuild, but I had switched over to their semi synth 10W30 and 4k km drain intervals when the bike had 30k km on the odo. More wear and tear for the engines means more $$$ for the A.S.S. I switched back to 10W40 or 5W40 after engine rebuild. Now it has completed 50k km, and the mechanic says I need to change a set of rings and the timing chain, and it will be good to go for another 50k. He is kind of surprised, because according to him the current lot of engines don't last beyond 50k km, and mostly the same parts were used to rebuild my engine.

Last edited by Gansan : 11th December 2020 at 11:28.
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Old 14th December 2020, 08:20   #5653
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

Gentlemen, I need a quick suggestion.

I am stuck in Dehradun since a few weeks, and don’t want to visit the VW dealer here, multiple people have warned me about this guy being a notorious one (maybe because there is no other service station within 200 kms).

I was inspecting my TDi, and noticed that the oil level has gone below the lowest mark (like every 7500 kms), so I gave a quick call to my adviser and he has suggested me to go with 5W-40.

Now I have two options, Castrol Magnatec, and Castrol Edge, I guess, the VW guys use Magnatec.

Can someone explain me the difference between the two? Both are 5W-40 and both are fully synthetic. Then why it is so that Edge costs around 1.6 times of what the Magnatec costs?
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Old 14th December 2020, 08:26   #5654
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

You're saying the VW is drinking oil so that it goes below the lowest mark within 7500 km? That is something to troubleshoot, separate from your needing oil.

You could just fill Shell Helix Ultra 5w40 for older VWs and it works great.

As for Edge vs Magnatec - Edge is a much higher grade of Synthetic than Magnatec is. You can certainly try Edge if you have it available in Dehradun.

For good full synthetic oils, Shell Helix Ultra does the job at a rather more reasonable price than Edge, and you really don't want super premium oils like Castrol Edge, Mobil 1, Amsoil etc before your oil drinking issue has been identified and fixed.

Just fill Magnatec for now would be my suggestion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VKumar View Post
so I gave a quick call to my adviser and he has suggested me to go with 5W-40.

Now I have two options, Castrol Magnatec, and Castrol Edge, I guess, the VW guys use Magnatec.
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Old 14th December 2020, 08:30   #5655
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

Quote:
Originally Posted by VKumar View Post
don’t want to visit the VW dealer here, multiple people have warned me about this guy being a notorious I was inspecting my TDi, and noticed that the oil level has gone below the lowest mark.. Castrol Magnatec, and Castrol Edge.
If it’s just the top-up I am pretty sure the local dealership can do it without causing any additional problems unless he is using fake oil which in this day looks impossible. You can also take your car and by showing you Vin/ Key, they should be able to invoice you the oil and you can add yourself.

Regarding the difference between the oils, it has to do with additives, google suggest this

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/th...tanium.294214/

Last edited by Turbanator : 14th December 2020 at 08:31.
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