[Sheel]

Oh yeah! The King Of Slide. Can't do without him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tqxykKDck0

[Silverflash]

Ah, Garry McCoy on his Dunlop dancing shoes. :-) That was something to look forward to during the latter stages of any race.

I remember the Michelins and the Dunlops had distinctly different rates of wear and grip. The Michelins would offer superlative grip up to a point, and then just drop off a cliff. The Dunlops, on the other hand, were moderate to begin with, but kept grip much later than the Michelins.

McCoy was the perfect endgame exponent of the Dunlops, storming through the field in the latter 20-25% of GPs. His comfort level on a sliding, slippery bike made him a natural fit for the Dunlops. He husbanded them pretty carefully through the initial stages when the Michelins were better, and then rode rings around the Michelin riders at the end. :-) Wonderfully entertaining to watch.

[Ricci]

@Sheel - I don't remember off-hand , sometime in 2010 season which I'm a bit loathe to download all and watch! Since the Ducati move, VR has rarely been up on the pace in starting grid , and Lorenzo/Dani usually get the first row complete with another rider , now Marquez but earlier anyone from Stoner, Bautista, Crutchlow, Bradl.

VR doesn't often start in the first row, and his riding style is such that he doesn't start out fast, conserving the tyres for the latter part of the race. Only in the last 4-8 laps does he up his pace to overtake the front-runners, but with Lorenzo and Marqueze that's a lot harder.

Suffice to say, Lorenzo/Dani/Marquez often qualify first and once they lead the race, usually open a gap that Rossi is unable to close most of the time. Let's see if 2015 gives him his mojo back.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by Ricci

@Sheel - I don't remember off-hand , sometime in 2010 season which I'm a bit loathe to download all and watch! Since the Ducati move, VR has rarely been up on the pace in starting grid , and Lorenzo/Dani usually get the first row complete with another rider , now Marquez but earlier anyone from Stoner, Bautista, Crutchlow, Bradl.

VR doesn't often start in the first row, and his riding style is such that he doesn't start out fast, conserving the tyres for the latter part of the race. Only in the last 4-8 laps does he up his pace to overtake the front-runners, but with Lorenzo and Marqueze that's a lot harder.

Suffice to say, Lorenzo/Dani/Marquez often qualify first and once they lead the race, usually open a gap that Rossi is unable to close most of the time. Let's see if 2015 gives him his mojo back.

Rossi does not qualify well. Nothing new in that. But nobody, not even Marquez today, can cut through the field and make up places in the first few laps, the way Rossi still does regularly. In his case, you can safely add 3-4 spots to his qualifying position and realistically expect to see him there within 2-3 laps of the start. The others do not open the gap because they are better. But simply because those in between them and Rossi are not as good. Its all very marginal at Moto GP level, but when you pit the best 22 riders in the world on one track, that's all one needs.

Mojo? Ricci, Rossi is as old as you incidentally. Maybe older. Want to reconsider your statement?

[Silverflash]

Originally Posted by ebonho

Rossi does not qualify well. Nothing new in that. But nobody, not even Marquez today, can cut through the field and make up places in the first few laps, the way Rossi still does regularly. In his case, you can safely add 3-4 spots to his qualifying position and realistically expect to see him there within 2-3 laps of the start. The others do not open the gap because they are better. But simply because those in between them and Rossi are not as good. Its all very marginal at Moto GP level, but when you pit the best 22 riders in the world on one track, that's all one needs.

Bit like Schwantz in that regard, isn't he? Regularly making 2nd or even 3rd row starts look like they don't really matter. Different thing that Schwantz was almost always at a disadvantage with his machinery.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by Silverflash

Bit like Schwantz in that regard, isn't he? Regularly making 2nd or even 3rd row starts look like they don't really matter. Different thing that Schwantz was almost always at a disadvantage with his machinery.

I do believe that Rossi is the last of the true blue oil and grit and glory true blue racers out there today. He's also a supreme thinking racer. And he's also a supreme hustler. There is really not as much pleasure in seeing Rossi out in front (except in the dying laps) as there is of Rossi on the buttocks of the lead hustling him into making a mistake and crashing or going wide. I repeat. When Rossi gets into a guys brain, he's like a virus. He will eat deeper and deeper, until the guy does a Gibernau. Moto GP lore is littered with the burnt out husks of riders who got burnt similarly. Which is why I respect Stoner immensely (though when he was fighting Rossi, as a diehard fan, I called him moaner .....). He was the one guy who resisted. Jorge is very smooth, but too clinical. Even his histrionics when he appeared on the scene with his flag planting, jousting, etc. left me largely unmoved. Dani poor chap needs a stool to get on to the bike, but is wicked fast otherwise. I like Crutchlow too. He's a character, and needs a better bike.

[Sheel]

I don't even think VR was on the grid & competiting during his Ducati days. Save for podium i a rain drenched race, it was all big downhill

[Silverflash]

Originally Posted by ebonho

I do believe that Rossi is the last of the true blue oil and grit and glory true blue racers out there today. He's also a supreme thinking racer. And he's also a supreme hustler. There is really not as much pleasure in seeing Rossi out in front (except in the dying laps) as there is of Rossi on the buttocks of the lead hustling him into making a mistake and crashing or going wide. I repeat. When Rossi gets into a guys brain, he's like a virus. He will eat deeper and deeper, until the guy does a Gibernau. Moto GP lore is littered with the burnt out husks of riders who got burnt similarly. Which is why I respect Stoner immensely (though when he was fighting Rossi, as a diehard fan, I called him moaner .....). He was the one guy who resisted. Jorge is very smooth, but too clinical. Even his histrionics when he appeared on the scene with his flag planting, jousting, etc. left me largely unmoved. Dani poor chap needs a stool to get on to the bike, but is wicked fast otherwise. I like Crutchlow too. He's a character, and needs a better bike.

Rossi - both through his riding and the timing of his career - is probably the last racer who is still a throwback to the older era of 'salt of the earth' champions while also not being out of place in today's times where almost the entire grid behaves like rockstars. I miss times when great champs like Doohan, Rainey, Dunlop, Roberts et al were so down to earth, and really didn't behave like stars or anything. For them, it was just doing something they loved. The glamour quotient really ratcheted up only later, probably around the dawn of the 4-stroke era. After Rossi is finally done, I doubt we will see too many more racers who know what it is to be low-profile even when you are the best at your business.

Originally Posted by Sheel

I don't even think VR was on the grid & competiting during his Ducati days. Save for podium i a rain drenched race, it was all big downhill

Competitiveness = (Bike + Rider + Engineer) * Chemistry. When Rossi was with Ducati, there was zero chemistry between his riding style and the bike that he was trying to develop. No matter how good you are, or how hard you try to push a bike, if your riding style is just not suited to the machine, you ain't gonna be pushing the podium places, period. Rossi is hardly the first person to whom this happened - look at what happened to Abe when he tried to switch over to the 4-strokes, or even Hayden on the Ducati, or Cadalora when he left the 250cc class.

The Ducati demanded to be ridden a particular way to be competent. Rossi simply could not ride like that, and that is not a black mark on his record at all. It was a marriage made in the lowest circle of hell from the get go, and was unlikely to ever produce results - look instead into why Ducati seem so resistant to alter the package even when two world champions were telling them that it was a piece of junk.

PS: There is no better barometer of a rider or driver's talent than in a rain drenched race. Wet tracks usually tend to cancel out most machinery advantages in premier class racing, boiling things down to the racer at the helm. True quality will always shine through in these conditions - if Rossi was able to make an impression in the rain on the Ducati, it is further proof that the talent didn't go anywhere.

[Ricci]

Originally Posted by ebonho

Rossi does not qualify well. Nothing new in that. But nobody, not even Marquez today, can cut through the field and make up places in the first few laps, the way Rossi still does regularly.

Mojo? Ricci, Rossi is as old as you incidentally. Maybe older. Want to reconsider your statement?

Doc, qualifying and lap records are indicators of how fast a rider+bike can go , without anyone blocking them - and to win races, you have to maintain that pace. Have you seen Marquez' lap times ? Dani is fast but tires out hence doesn't win as many races. Marquez seems to be able to keep the pace up till the end. He's not my favorite but have to hand it to him, he's quicker than anyone else right now.

VR's best days are behind him. No disrespect meant, but 30 is considered old in the top echelons of sport. That he's still in the top 5 is mark of the Rossi's talent and determination, the other guys in their 30s look like they're just about hanging on. Clinical as you may think, Lorenzo has a better outcome since 2010, the chap has learned from his mistakes and crashes in 2008-9 seasons.

What should I reconsider ? I'm not even considering local competitive riding, let aside MotoGP, and I don't think my talent is anywhere close to VRs or even the last ranked rider. I'm simply stating that no matter how good you are, eventually you have to give up your throne , and I think Rossi's no longer the king of the MotoGP hill, I'm only saying it aloud and I don't think I'm the only one who thinks so.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by Ricci

Doc, qualifying and lap records are indicators of how fast a rider+bike can go , without anyone blocking them

Exactly Ricci. It has NOTHING to do with racing or how good a natural born racer you are.

Rossi thrives in the heat of battle, with guys all around him. There is no battle in qualifying except with yourself. He is a natural born racer.

And one of the things a racer NEEDS to shine is guys racing against him. Not against a clock.

And about the mojo bit, I wasn't suggesting you were Rossi or anywhere close. Perish the thought.

You do know the rule of thumb in the racing world right, of a racer losing a second a lap for every decade of his life?

Rossi has been racing for TWO decades at the top most level now.

That's TWO seconds a lap he has probably lost to the Rossi 20 years his junior.

And where is Rossi currently on the race pace, lap after lap, compared to the puppies?

On their juvenile buttocks, if not ahead.

So where would the 20 year younger puppy Rossi have been in the same grid today against these same puppies and papa Rossi?

TWO SECONDS A LAP AHEAD.

Please bow your head and appreciate the last glowing embers of a glorious flame.

[Urban_Nomad]

Rossi vs. the Rest of the world; a debate that never can have a logical; or at least a peaceful conclusion. No amount of number crunching will help. It has been done before and it didnt work then. Nothing much has changed since then

In my very humble opinion, this sentiment towards Rossi is actually very basic and not at all complicated. Most of the die hard Rossi fans are veteran riders, with at the very minimum a decade's worth of riding experience with them. They have been riding when perfromance motorcycling in India was just a pipe dream. They however pushed on. Made their machines go faster and spent hours laboring on them to make them better still. heck, they even took part in rallies and competed with some very well funded, very skilled folks

They have seen many newbies come and go during their riding careers, but they continue to haul ass; both on and off the race track. This elitist group has very strong barriers to entry and the newbie(s) would really have to prove their mettle to really be "a part of the gang"; which often almost never happens. This newbie (for example, hypothetical) did a Leh ride solo ........ BIG WHOOP. Did he ride 400 + kms on a dark highway with a broken collar bone and throttle cable hanging out from its housing (True story actually)? No? Then, NOT WORTHY!!!!!

And Rossi is the chairman + CEO + God of this group

Like our veterans, he has been racing since forever now and continues to kick butt. No "newbie" is worth the pedestal upon which Rossi resides

Doesnt matter if someone was the Champion of the World at an age where most of the world is trying to get a grasp of how they would earn a living. Doesnt matter if the kid broke a record that no one (including the great Vale) was not able to touch for decades. Has he won the title 9 times? No? NOT WORTHY!!!!!

Its mostly the newer group of riders that I find tend to gravitate more towards the Marcs, Jorges and Pedrosas of the world. Their loyalty (I feel) is more towards the sport rather than a singular entity within that realm. They want that newbie to succeed. Competition is a good thing; irrespective of the sport

But one big and fundamental difference between the old school and newbie group is; the newbies still think Rossi is great, and there are others who are potentially better. Most of the Rossi camp mostly chants HAIL ROSSI - REST CRAP!!! Stoner is a moaner, Lorenzo is boring, marc is all out all the time and no finesse. When Rossi complained that Ducati was worthless; well....... he's Italian so of course its a given

Forget Marc and Lorenzo that are on top of the game; even non contendors like Crutchlow and Espagro have my respect. I loved how Espagro on his Suzuki fought Crutchlow tooth and nail for his spot during the race prior to the last; despite being on an apparently lower spec machine. I love watching such battles; and I will continue to watch these battles irrespective of whatever Rossi or anyone is doing in their life

For me; the thrill of the race is - "Not an inch asked for..... not an inch given"

[JayKis]

Originally Posted by ebonho

Numbers .....

Lorenzo, like his compatriot Pedrosa, belong to a generation who are great when ahead. They are great qualifiers - when nobody else is gunning on their behind, their front tyre inches from their leathered behind, their engine wail filling the insides of their helmets.

They are really good at starting ahead and then staying ahead. They know this whole modern qualifying game better.

Rossi belongs to a generation that knows how to battle and actually race.

There is a big difference. Both in the racers, and their respective fans.

Go Papa. Go get your EIGHT Moto GP title.

Rossi is a rider who deliberately rides a fast bike slow in qualifying and then try to make a show by passing others during the race. Makes up foor good entertainment through out his whole career. Just a counter point

Originally Posted by Shivank

So, Lorenzo needs to slow down, mix-up with others and 'race' in the name of entertainment? Racing is not about scrapping leathers as much as it is about finishing first, I believe. Not being able to catch Lorenzo on the track is other riders' fault, not Lorenzo's. Till the time other top riders up their game and match Lorenzo's race-pace, blame them for all the boredom you experience while watching a MotoGP race. ;-)

Rossi fanboys (there are no dearth of them anywhere) overlook that fact Rossi is unable to catch Lorenzo in the past three races inspite of being fully fit and no machinery challenge. Rossi is not in the same league as Marquez or Lorenzo.

Originally Posted by ebonho

He never gelled with the bike. In the end he had to come back to Yamaha to be competitive. Luckily for him and Yamaha and us he never burned his bridges with them as he did with Honda.

We thought what made Rossi such a great rider was his ability to switch rides and still win. He had to eat crap on that "we will fix it in 90 seconds" move to Ducati

Originally Posted by ebonho

Every rider has his own style. There is no coaching manual textbook rule of thumb golden "correct" mean at the pointy end of the phalanx of the best riders in the world.

Stoner was great to watch. So is Marquez and his elbow. So is mad dog Iaonne.

Rossi is the master. Period.

One win, and all the Jorge / Marquez fans will retreat back into the woodwork from which they shakily emerged into the bewildering sunlight 3 races ago.

Rossi WAS a master. Not any more unless the conditions are really conducive to him.

"He also had the the knack of getting into the right bike at the right time throughout his career till the Ducati fiasco.
"But the thing that many don't seem to recognize is that along with amazing talent, Valentino has had just a an exceptional gift when it comes to being on the right bike at the right time. Think about it: when we were on 500s we had the 17 inch tire. That tire was kind of the equalizer to a degree, and with it, I won the world title, that's a big part of why Suzuki was competitive. Then, they change to a 16.5 tire and importance of horsepower goes way up, because the contact patch is basically doubled. Just in time for that, Rossi is on the Honda, has it figured out and has Jeremy Burgess. Honda has the bike, crew, tires, etc. The championship is his."

"Then, he is with Honda when the move to four strokes and MotoGP is made. It's (the RC211V). Honda again has the bike, crew, tires, etc. He wins."

Says Kenny Roberts Jr on Rossi
http://http://www.superbikeplanet.co...20413-1046.htm

Originally Posted by Sheel

How long do you expect him to be ahead in the game?

His race craft is still tops, I care two hoots about qualifying or flying on the track on your own while leading. I want a show, that is why I watch races.

For me, if you remove electronics [safety aid is another topic] then on every race, I am going to bet on Rossi, even if the race is on one wheel.

Sheel, Rossi is the one who propagated this electronics software control in the first place. Would really put Lorenzo, Stoner and Marquez over Rossi on the list if you take the electronics off. Just my view just like Lewis Hamilton over Nico Rosberg

Originally Posted by ebonho

That's an Italian's birthright. When you put an Italian rider on an Italian bike, it increases exponentially.

Would Stoner have won on a Yamaha? Or would he have moaned even louder and longer. I guess we'll never know.

The fact is Stoner won on the Ducati. Won a championship. Was winning quite a few races (regularly binning it as well) in 2010 but Rossi won Zilch on the Ducati in 2 years. Zero, Nil, Nada. Rossi won his last championship 6 years back in 2009!

The next race is going to be intriguing as it is the hard front tyre track. Lorenzo won the last three on the medium front. Fingers crossed on how it will unfold. Hope Iannone wins something this year. He needs to be given an award for bravery.

[Urban_Nomad]

Originally Posted by JayKis

Rossi is the one who propagated this electronics software control in the first place. Would really put Lorenzo, Stoner and Marquez over Rossi on the list if you take the electronics off

Thats news to me. I always thought that Rossi was the old school types who turned his nose up to electronics. Do you have more info you can share on this? Just curious

Originally Posted by JayKis

Hope Iannone wins something this year. He needs to be given an award for bravery.

Plus 1000

[Parth46]

Originally Posted by Urban_Nomad

Rossi vs. the Rest of the world;
For me; the thrill of the race is - "Not an inch asked for..... not an inch given"

Dude, very well written . I agree with a few points and disagree with some.

Yes, he is an old-timer and the old-timers are that much fonder of him than the current generation. (I'm not an old-timer - just 30! - even though have been riding (some racing) for the last 15 odd years.

No, the barriers to entry are not that high. To quote your example, you don't need to suffer and pull off heroic deeds on a bike to "qualify" for the Valentino Rossi fan club.

Yes, no "newbie" is CURRENTLY worthy of the pedestal on which Rossi resides. I'll get to this in a moment. He has single-handedly elevated MotoGP to a whole new level of sporting events simply on the back his imitable charisma and unparalleled skill and success.

No, till a few years ago, almost all records were in Rossi's name. Only in the last few years have all metrics been re-written by the newbies and we love them for that. Shows that the new young group is very fast and tech has also improved a lot as well.

No, the newbie lovers are NOT fans of Rossi from the general trend on this thread and that seems to be the main bone of contention. The "old-timers" like me have said time and again that the new guys are seriously good and fast and potentially will stand the test of time for the years to come, but the main point is this - Rossi is ALREADY a TIME_TESTED veteran of racing that has been winning since 1996. The new crowd is in just a bit too much of a hurry to write off Rossi and herald the Lorenzos and Marquezs as the new heroes who should be worshipped and the old should have given way to the new long back. Is it Rossi's fault that he is fit enough and motivated enough and competitive enough to still fight for the crown at 36? Is there some unwritten rule that an athlete should only stay in his/her chosen sport till only a certain age? Yes, MotoGP is a young guy's game but the fact that a 36 year old is still kicking butt needs to be treated with respect and not disdain.

@ JayKis - Yes, he won his last title in 2009 - 6 years ago. But he also won his FIRST title way back in 1996. Perhaps you can point out other riders who've been so successful at the top level over the decades, enlighten us.

Yes, there is no dearth of Rossi fanboys anywhere and I'm proud to be one of his biggest fans - agree it can be intimidating for some folks used to lesser gods. It's like the Manchester United effect, where all these people who you've never seen before suddenly come out of the woodwork to don their favorite yellow and blue clothing, cover themselves in the number 46 and wrap themselves up in huge flags bearing The Doctor in massive letters.

Yes, the ability to switch rides and still win does make Rossi a great rider. Please let us know who else in the current and slightly older crop has won world titles on an Aprilia, a Honda and a Yamaha over 20 years? That too in classes ranging from 125 cc - 1000 cc?

Rossi not in the same league as Marquez or Lorenzo? Pardon me, but that is one of the most laughably absurd things I've read in a long, long time. Thanks for the laughs my friend.

Electronics? The master at making the right tyre choice day in and day out, ability to preserve the tyres just enough to mount a last lap assault, not binning it under pressure like MM93, and it's all due to electronics? My apologies again, but I find it really tough to absorb these valuable nuggets.

Again, like I've said before - all the respect for the young brigade doesn't take away from the fact that he's still a genuine threat and still raring to go for his tenth crown. Just don't write him off yet. He's one who can ride around at the back of the grid till he's 50 and still be the GREATEST OF ALL TIME.

Cheers,
Parth

[mayankk]

A 36 year old challenging for the championship.
The Marquezs, Stoners, and their ilk fizz out and fade away, giving irrelevant statements from ozzie ranches.

Originally Posted by Parth46

it can be intimidating for some folks used to lesser gods.

Cheers!!!