[badri]

Here is an excellent article by Mat Oxley on comparing riders from different eras, race statistics etc..

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/ra...e-percentages/

Some snippets from the article.

"In 1959 Surtees won seven out of seven races and in 1968 Agostini won all ten races. They are GP racing’s only ’100 per centers’ and they won’t ever be beaten, not even by today’s riders who like to tell us that they’re going out there to give it 120 per cent." " Mike Hailwood is up there too. In 1963 and 1965 he was 87 and 80 per cent victorious. And the year before Surtees went unbeaten he took 85 per cent of the winner’s silverware. Next on the list is Doohan."

But there was a caveat!

"In 1968 Ago was MV Agusta’s only rider and MV were the only factory contesting GP racing. In 1959 MV were also the sole factory on the grid, though Surtees had Italian Remo Venturi as back-up rider. In those days the rest of the grid was populated by impoverished privateers who could barely afford enough petrol to get to the next event, let alone a new piston for their Norton Manx"

"Then again, Surtees and Ago raced dangerous racetracks that usually claimed a rider or two on every visit"

About the current scenario,

" And what of today? Without doubt it is one of the most competitive periods in almost 70 years of Grand Prix racing. Most races are won by two or three seconds and the pace is pitiless. Márquez has to deal with Valentino Rossi, Jorge Lorenzo and Dani Pedrosa, which is a tougher job than dealing with Venturi or Okada, but not as tough as dealing with Schwantz, Rainey, Doohan, Lawson and Gardner."


There it is.. I copy-pasted most of the article..

What I presume Mat means here is that he considers Doohan's early years achievements higher than others purely because of the competition at that time.

FYI, Mat is a Isle of Man TT winner and lap record holder.

[mayankk]

This was the actual moment I went from being a follower of the guy's exploits, appreciating and wondering at his prowess, to being a HUGE fan!!
I actually went to the auto expo for her, and had more pics of the bike than all the others combined!

[Gansan]

1) Wayne Rainey
2) Kevin Schwantz
3) Mick Doohan
4) Valentino Rossi

[JayKis]

The Rider developing the bike - Myth debunked.

It is entirely wrong to think of riders as "developing" a bike. What they do is give input based on their feeling on the bike. That feedback then passes into a massive system of engineering analysis, which in turn churns out designs, which are then passed to manufacturing processes. It is the engineers which make the decisions on how the bike will behave. These are then handed over to a test team, and eventually the race team. There are a million opportunities for communication to fail, or to be ignored. The great manufacturers are aware of this and do everything they can to ensure communication happens as smoothly as possible.

A post by a fan (The question is directly aimed at Stoner but the reply is aimed at all riders)

It's been said before but I'll say it again: Casey Stoner can't develop a bike. The two titles he won were on good bikes which had been developed by someone else. In subsequent years the quality of the bikes declined until no-one but Casey could get a decent result out of them and then not all the time.

I believe Casey's ability to jump on almost anything and get a decent result without requiring much set up illustrates his insensitivity to the feel of the machine. Not very helpful when you are trying to develop a bike that a variety of riders can compete on. Contrast what happened to the championship winning Ducati and Honda whilst Casey was involved in their development with the non-championship winning Yamahas when Rossi got involved. This is, I think, a very underrated aspect of Rossi's contribution to any team.

I'm not suggesting that Honda's problems are all of Casey's making but whilst they rely on him and Marquez (who seems to have a similar ability to smash a decent lap out of anything, thus masking its deficiencies) for development I can't see the situation improving soon.

Don't get me wrong - I loved watching Stoner ride. I just don't think he's the right rider for bike development

David Emmett's reply to it.

I have spoken to several engineers and people at Ducati and Honda who worked with Stoner. All have said his feedback was second to none. Precise, accurate, and always right.

Cristian Gabarrini tells a story of a test at Qatar with Ducati. Stoner came back into the pits, said there was something wrong with the engine. The engineers checked the data, ran the engine, pulled the plugs and inspected the engine, did all the tests they could to try to find the problem. Couldn't see anything, so they sent him back out again. Stoner parked the bike a lap and a half later, the engine had gone. Stoner had felt something which the data did not show. He explained what was wrong, but the engineers didn't believe him, until they were proved right.

Stoner, Marquez, Pedrosa, Rossi, Lorenzo, every great rider suffers the same problem. They tell the engineers what is wrong with the bike. The engineers look at the data, see that the rider is finding a way to ride it. They look at the lap time, which is always fast. They put a little asterisk next to the rider's comments, and carry on as before. It has always been that way. While Wayne Rainey was winning on the Yamaha, he kept complaining that the bike was a piece of crap. Kenny Roberts (then his team manager) told him "If you don't stop f*****g winning on this piece of s**t, they're never going to fix it!"

It is not the quality of the input which is at fault, it is what the engineers do with it.

N.B. His character is soon to be assassinated as well. He would be marked as an industry source who is hand in glove with the factories to prove that it was always the machinery.

[MonsterPatrol]

I had mentioned in an earlier post on the former thread as well.Almost all the factory riders are equally skilled. Its the race fitness, mental strength and off track rider input that differenciates them. Rider+bike or bike+rider,either way it's a collective effort. Even of the engineers working at a factory thousands of miles away.

[mayankk]

In a race, it's 80% rider, 20% the bike.

[JayKis]

Now that the Bike development myth has been debunked let us focus on another aspect of the Yamaha 2004 story.

So the Yamaha brought in their big bang engine M1 in 2004. And when does Rossi win his first championship on the Yamaha? You heard it right -No prizes for guessing!

Rossi signed up for $6 million a year to race the Yamaha in 2004. During 2003/2004 winter testing, Yamaha stepped up to the plate by pulling out all the stops in their collaboration with Rossi and Burgess. Through a systematic regime of innovation and testing, they sought to refine the M1's traditionally strong traits such as good braking and quick handling (which impressed Rossi), and marry them with good balance and transition to power. Working closely with Rossi and Burgess, Yamaha engineers under YZR-M1 project leader Koichi Tsuji experimented with a number of engine modifications in an attempt to fix the power delivery, and finally it was decided to go ahead with a four valve per cylinder head configuration (as opposed to the earlier five valve head), with a specially refined cylinder firing order. This turned the straight four cylinder engine from a traditional "screamer", where the power pulses are spaced equally (every 180 crank degrees) in the four stroke cycle, into a so-called "long bang" engine where the power pulses are grouped unevenly across the cycle (270-180-90-180).This firing order mimics the constant kinetic energy of a V4 engine while maintaining the desirable engine packaging of a traditional inline four cylinder. These developments significantly improved the torque characteristics of the engine, and coupled with slight changes to the position of the engine in the chassis, made the M1 much easier to control at the limit of adhesion while exiting corners. After a frantic winter of development and testing, the team showed the world that they had made a significant step in the right direction, when Rossi and the M1 won the BMW car at the 2004 pre season IRTA test at Catalunya, by posting the fastest lap of the open session (similar to normal race qualifying).

Rossi sure is a great racer but saying that he developed the Yamaha as a winning bike in 2004 is borderline ridiculous.

[MonsterPatrol]

When Rossi fans insult other riders and doubt our dedication towards them it fills me with disdain and brings back some unpleasant memories. Years ago, I had a friend who was a proper Stoner fan. He had the entire riding gear of Stoner,almost all of it.His Suzuki looked more like a Ducati. I still remember sparring with him for hours as to who's better Jorge or Stoner and he would never give up. Such was his dedication, on that unfortunate day when he lost his life in a Superbike accident the last thing he put on was his beloved Stoner's Nolan helmet and he breathed his last in it. I was given the task of informing his parents about the crash. I still remember when I entered his bedroom, I saw the walls covered with nothing but stoner's posters and a collage of his victories.His madness for Stoner is unforgettable.

[mayankk]

No-one will win a trophy or a record book entry for "outstanding statistical sub-figure achieved ".
No-one will be in the stands at the races tomorrow with a toner flag.
At the end of his career, I'm pretty sure Rossi will have 10 against his name. And In the books. And on Wikipedia. Going by his drive, I think that's what he's going for before deciding on an end.
Everyone else may be good, but history, winners, etc. Where the rest will come up is in a section where it will say that "apart from Stoners who challenged in... ".
I don't usually go out of my way to react to trolls, but with comments like "Rossi pussy" and "baiting fanboys", it just sounds like someone pitching for a fight. Take it elsewhere. That discussion has never been productive. I don't have any disdain for anyone who supports someone else. Nor am I going to turn based on 30 pages of ctrl C,V.
I'm just lucky that I've been able to follow and root for one man for decades now, instead of picking a flavor of the year every couple of seasons.

[ksameer1234]

Originally Posted by mayankk

I'm just lucky that I've been able to follow and root for one man for decades now, instead of picking a flavor of the year every couple of seasons.

I used to follow motogp till 5-6 year back and was great fan of Rossi. (I'll admit it was partly because others liked him as well). It is so reassuring to pick up the motogp bug this year and still be able to see The Doctor going strong as usual!!

[Parth46]

Originally Posted by mayankk

I don't usually go out of my way to react to trolls, but with comments like "Rossi pussy" and "baiting fanboys", it just sounds like someone pitching for a fight. Take it elsewhere. That discussion has never been productive. I don't have any disdain for anyone who supports someone else. Nor am I going to turn based on 30 pages of ctrl C,V.
I'm just lucky that I've been able to follow and root for one man for decades now, instead of picking a flavor of the year every couple of seasons.

Couldn't agree more and couldn't have framed it better myself.

Been watching and worshiping Rossi & MotoGP since 2001, and not just adore him to be the flavor of the season. Doesn't matter what the ctrl-c, ctrl-v loving trolls say or do, he WILL go down in history as the greatest of all time.

Somebody mentioned that we remember only Catalunya 2009 and not others.

As ebonho and all of us have mentioned, if we start pulling in details and videos of people Rossi has crushed in all-time epic races, and that too across classes and seasons, this thread will run out of space. Perhaps people conveniently ignored the kick-ass videos posted over the last few pages, and even those are mere glimpses of what VR46 has done & accomplished over the years.

[killjoy]

Originally Posted by JayKis

He has twice the number of fans (claimed) and in order to keep their bragging rights, he has to!

Sorry dude, dont have statistics but watch every track and every race and see the stands that have 46 on them!
Also, the only thing that I can find on Public forums - Twitter followers
Jorge - 1.12M
Marc - 1.45M
Rossi - 3.5M


Now, on another name I saw somewhere - Mick Doohan - I don't even want to discuss it here. HE deserves a discussion separately. You just bow down in the presence of "POWER".

[JayKis]

Originally Posted by MonsterPatrol

Rightly spotted.Inside and outside both.

Learn to Ignore

Originally Posted by ashwin.terminat

I have been reading this thread for days now and was hoping that these desperate attempts to one up each other would stop. But sadly, it hasn't.

Let's keep this about the 2015 MotoGP season alone. Members are needlessly provoking each other to litter this thread with more Rossi vs Lorenzo vs Marquez arguments.

Let's be respectful of each others' opinions and not ridicule them.

Over and out.

Rossi vs Lorenzo vs Marquez arguments are fine. It helps keep pouring people's thinking. Some are backed up by stats where as some are just plain emotion.

One pattern observed over the years is that where there are Rossi fan boys, there is no respect! Respect cannot be a part of the equation when
Rossi himself is a pretty cheeky character for that matter as seen over the years.

To use a metaphor, Marc Márquez is likely to be found with matches in his hands standing next to the ashes of a burning vehicle. Rossi always makes sure that someone else is holding the matches when a vehicle burns down, whether or not he had a hand in lighting the fire.

Rossi is a popular rider but dont think there is any respect for him in the paddock. Like a Roger Federer respect or a Rafael Nadal one!

The flame that burns the brightest is about to die! It has been a slow and and excruciatingly painful over the last 6 years. His ability to stay has only been supported by his ability to bring in the money, otherwise he would have been booted out long time ago. It is good to see him competitive this year. Would this be his final flourish that every sportsman needs to retire in peace or would Lorenzo take it away? Intriguing season up ahead!

This poem aptly covers it.

Hungry Young Men:

Yes, when you were the hunter it all seemed so right.
But it’s much harder now to sleep soundly at night,
Now you’re older and wiser, but you don’t have the fight.
Of all of the hungry young men.
It’s not a matter of if, it’s a matter of when.

You fall to the hungry young men
They come looking for you and there’s nowhere to hide.
The young lion grows old and has to give up his pride
You’re starting to feel like you’re attacked from all sides
There’s no rest from the hungry young men.
It’s not a matter of if, it’s a matter of when.
You fall to the hungry young men


They say all of our idols eventually fall
Their tales and their glories they fade and grow small
And the once-shiny trophies collect dust on the wall
Made dull by the hungry young men.
It’s not a matter of if, it’s a matter of when.
You fall to the hungry young men


When you were the hunter is all seemed such fun
Now you’re starting to fade from all that time in the sun
It’s like you’re under the pump, and under the gun
Feeling hunted by hungry young men.
It’s not a matter of if, it’s a matter of when.
You fall to the hungry young men

[Sheel]

Originally Posted by JayKis

One pattern observed over the years is that where there are Rossi fan boys, there is no respect! Respect cannot be a part of the equation when
Rossi himself is a pretty cheeky character for that matter as seen over the years.

Rossi is a popular rider but dont think there is any respect for him in the paddock. Like a Roger Federer respect or a Rafael Nadal one!

What makes you assume this Jay?

I use the word assume, as over the years, I have watched him as well. Despite his status, have seen him doing good work & have seen people respecting him.

Even on the podium, the Honorable Guests who hand out the trophy to other winners/constructors make it a point to shake hands with him.

And what difference [if its true] does it make in his riding? You were the one who were saying Rossi fanboys have no respect, maybe true, but am sorry to say, it appears true for others as well.

You didn't post a reply here as well. [About my opinion on Kenny Roberts]

[JayKis]

Originally Posted by Sheel

What makes you assume this Jay?

I use the word assume, as over the years, I have watched him as well. Despite his status, have seen him doing good work & have seen people respecting him.

Even on the podium, the Honorable Guests who hand out the trophy to other winners/constructors make it a point to shake hands with him.

And what difference [if its true] does it make in his riding? You were the one who were saying Rossi fanboys have no respect, maybe true, but am sorry to say, it appears true for others as well.

You didn't post a reply here as well.

Good that you quoted it here. Being popular is one thing having other people's respect is another. Rossi is a brilliant rider but he has never been respectful to his competition. He has always had cheeky digs at his opposition from Biaggi to Gibernau to Stoner to Lorenzo. You may glorify them as mindgames but mindgames through the press dont earn you any respect, anywhere. It helps sell news thou and help hype up things. Do you see any other rider doing that? Have you ever heard Stoner remark in a negative way about Lorenzo or vice-versa? Why is it that Rossi is the perennial source of all?

Dani Pedrosa and Jorge Lorenzo were the biggest rivals ever and even the King of Spain couldnt help them agree to shake hands? But do you hear anything between them?

It doesnot have any forebearing on his riding, we can agree on that. Just like we should always dissociate Stoner's/Lorenzo's/Biaggi's personality from their riding skills!

Maybe you are right as well on the other fanboys, but I have clearly seen a pattern especially with the Rossi fanboys! (not fans).


Am not sure for what were you expecting the reply?