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View Poll Results: Your choice?
Small bike (<400cc) 49 21.49%
Medium (e.g. 400 - 800cc) 154 67.54%
Big (litre class) 25 10.96%
Voters: 228. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11th December 2018, 23:05   #181
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Default Re: Big vs Small Touring Bikes

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Originally Posted by rdst_1 View Post
I moved to Himachal a couple of years back and have been contemplating getting a bike which will be comfortable to do short tours on.
And do you have any BMW dealers near by?

If traveling to remote places in the hills is your thing, and you are convinced of the format of motorcycle you need - makes sense to wait up for the 390 Adventure unless you are in a hurry. Totally different scenario in Himachal, compared to Bangalore with dealers in most directions nearby (Cochin, Chennai, Hyderabad etc).

310GS isn't going anywhere in terms of sales, and the niche it currently enjoys will become absolute when the 390 Adventure hits the market.

Last edited by CrAzY dRiVeR : 11th December 2018 at 23:10.
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Old 11th December 2018, 23:11   #182
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Originally Posted by Kosfactor View Post
This is precisely why I asked about the money bit, they sell a lot of RE350 because it is an attainable big sort of bike and it is beautiful, given a choice of a similar bike they would have settled for something else as well which is more suited for touring. There have been many comments on the same forum where people have moved from RE to other motorcycles because they suit their touring needs.
Mate I partially agree with you on purpose-built motorcycles. Yes they are suited for touring, ADV, cross country, etc. But someone on this thread also mentioned about Ted Simon and his 650cc Standard Motorcycle nicknamed Jupiter. Similar example is of Claudio Von Planta who was cameraman rider for LWR/LWD series where Boorman and McGregor's BMW R1150GS were struggling on Mongolian terrain. Von Planta's BMW R1100GS suffered a broken frame rendering the bike unfit, he was given a US $1000 Russian Planeta 5 350cc two stroke standard Motorcycle till his BMW was fixed. Guess what the Planeta 5 performed better than the mighty GS on Mongolian terrain. Boorman and McGregor were amazed at its abilities vis a vis their GS. They nicknamed Planeta 5 as Red Devil. Not to say that Boorman and McGregor ditched their GS for Planeta, but you know what I mean. So yes there are purpose-built bikes but it is the rider who defines his purpose. I have reserved my Tbird500 for highway rides while I use my STD CI 350 for city commutes and am happy with the purpose I've defined for them. For ADV waiting for RE Himalayan 650 as I don't have any immediate need for an ADV.

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vibrations which gave birth to the Chai challenge etc etc
Alright show me any one motorcycle with a big single pushrod engine that does not vibrate in India at present or in the past.

Last edited by navin_v8 : 11th December 2018 at 23:15.
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Old 11th December 2018, 23:22   #183
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Originally Posted by rdst_1 View Post
So a person who has the means and thus indulges in his desires of upgrading his motorcycles every few years, can't be a motorcycle enthusiast
Guess I need to articulate better.

Comparative cases for example, I practically find no difference between my friends uncle who trades his 100cc commuter at the end of every year for a new commuter due to his high mileage use and a SBK owner I'd known a while ago, the SBK owner in question simply trades his motorcycle for flashier ones once they're out.

Both the above mentioned parties ride motorcycles but are not in it for the long-run, while one is bothered about saving costs the other is fixated on saving face, both the parties keep changing motorcycles but if a non-motorcycle option was available to satisfy their respective needs within the same price bracket then that would be the end of their motorcycling days.

Now I don't know about the rest but neither of these guys are motorcycle enthusiasts in my books, because they simply are not in it for the motorcycle.

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You can't define passion within a set of boundaries. Doesn't make me any less passionate than you, for motorcycles or motorcycling.
I couldn't agree more, because irrespective of what you ride or how long or far you ride you're doing it out of passion, you ride because you wan't to, not because it is the only thing that can get you as much attention as it does within your limited spending capacity.

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You say you have no clue about the people of the first kind and yet you feel it is alright to label them as wannabes and not worthy enough to be passionate about motorcycling.
Never labelled them as wannabes, just stated witnessed attributes and I still have no clue about their thought processes and at times is baffled by their reasoning statements.

Like recently a friend called me up for my opinion and I'm all ears when the talk if about motorcycles, he want's to get a new motorcycle as his current ride is not returning a decent FE and says that fixing up the motorcycle is an expensive affair and is interested in buying a new motorcycle(a recently reintroduced flashier variant of an existing model) which is at least 8 times the cost of getting his current motorcycle fixed and returns even lesser FE than his current motorcycle in its current state.

Now if you want something, you just want it. But that is not where things end.

But then he goes about looking for a really flashy motorcycle in the used market that would cost more than 10 times the amount required to fix his current motorcycle and then settles for an option that is in a similar if not worse off state of abuse than his current motorcycle and returns about half the FE that his current motorcycle does, remember FE was the major concern for scraping his current motorcycle!

The whole chain of events left me speechless for a while as from where I see things he's not at all interested in motorcycles, he's simply in it for the bling factor but at the same time claims otherwise which has led me to believe that I am simply clueless about such motorcyclists and would be better of investing my time elsewhere.
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Old 12th December 2018, 00:10   #184
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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
And do you have any BMW dealers near by?

If traveling to remote places in the hills is your thing, and you are convinced of the format of motorcycle you need - makes sense to wait up for the 390 Adventure unless you are in a hurry. Totally different scenario in Himachal, compared to Bangalore with dealers in most directions nearby (Cochin, Chennai, Hyderabad etc).

310GS isn't going anywhere in terms of sales, and the niche it currently enjoys will become absolute when the 390 Adventure hits the market.
I won't be able to enjoy many simple things including a washing machine and a dishwasher if I were to make my buying decisions based on the service coverage as Himachal is woefully underequiped in those regards. A service engineer for my dishwasher and WM would have to travel 300kms just for me and I will have to pay for his travel and extra visit charges. I still went ahead and bought them because they are indispensable.
Similarly, even a competent Tata/Mahindra dealer is 70+ kms away.

I am in no hurry and will definitely wait for the 390ADV as the KTM dealer is just 70kms away and I see many KTMs around.

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Originally Posted by ashwinprakas View Post
Guess I need to articulate better.

Comparative cases for example, I practically find no difference between my friends uncle who trades his 100cc commuter at the end of every year for a new commuter due to his high mileage use and a SBK owner I'd known a while ago, the SBK owner in question simply trades his motorcycle for flashier ones once they're out.
So in your opinion, there is no difference between one guy who is buying a bike for commuting and one who is buying a SBK for the adrenaline rush he gets. You believe you can question the second guys motives just because he changes bikes frequently.
There was a time, I used to have a different phone every 6 weeks. It wasn't because I wanted to be flashy and seek attention. It was because I had the opportunity to change phones that frequently and I was really into phones those days. Same was true for IEMs during a phase in my life. I have seen similar phases in many people on various forums. One of the forum members on Techenclave became an international level reviewer for headphones/IEMs during one such phase in his life. Doesn't make them any less passionate.
If I had the moolah, you would see even me changing bikes as frequently as I could because there is a certain high that one feels when going in for a new purchase, whether it be a SBK or a 2.5k IEM. Friends in my college, who were perfectly happy with their EP630s couldn't also understand why I had a new IEM every 5-6 weeks. Didn't make me any less passionate about my music or my IEMs.

You will also probably, not get it, that many people can be a bike enthusiast and not a biking enthusiast. Case and point being me, who doesn't like riding a lot, because of the experiences, but am still passionate about bikes in general and would love my opinion to be changed about riding as well.

Last edited by Gannu_1 : 13th December 2018 at 08:26. Reason: Back to back posts merged. Please use the multi-quote option (QUOTE+) while quoting and responding to multiple posts. Thanks.
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Old 12th December 2018, 01:24   #185
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Default Re: Big vs Small Touring Bikes

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Originally Posted by Red Liner View Post
I have already sensed and felt all these ages encapsulated in this thread just by reading some of the opinions. I would also hazard a strikingly good guess at some of the participant's ages myself...
If you have guessed my age to be in the mid 20s not only will I be thankful for the compliment of youth, I will also save more than a dozen candles on my next birthday.

Cheers,
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Old 12th December 2018, 11:48   #186
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Default Re: Big vs Small Touring Bikes

I am following this thread quite closely because I am in the market for a touring bike more so an adventure tourer. So, what are my requirements??

- Comfortable upright sitting position
- Proper wind protection
- Refined and stress free engine which could easily cruise at 120 kmph
- Can take on any terrain
- panniers and top box mounts

and the most important point

- decent service intervals and easily accessible service centres.

In short, I am looking for an adventure tourer. I am a firm believer that touring motorcycles should have long service intervals. For Example, The Suzuki V-Strome 650 XT, has a very short service interval at 4000km, whereas the Himalayan was said to be serviced at every 10,000.

Every adventurer tourer or touring motorcycle should have at least 6,000 km service interval is what I believe in.

So, in the current market which touring motorcycle would I like to have? well, it's the Africa Twin, but my budget is nowhere close to that.
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Old 12th December 2018, 11:55   #187
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Default Re: Big vs Small Touring Bikes

Quote:
I won't be able to enjoy many simple things including a washing machine and a dishwasher if I were to make my buying decisions based on the service coverage as Himachal is woefully underequiped in those regards.
And the highside is you get HIMACHAL.
Just to share, there in one guy from Bhutan, who is bought a 310Gs from Delhi and taken it to Bhutan to use it. He is the only 310GS rider in whole of Bhutan as of now. A while back, when trying to fix the crash guard system, he accidentally damaged the radiator hose pipe and all the coolant leaked out. The pipe is a special character with both the ends having different size (diameter) opening so one cant really do a "jugaad" and fix it. He was stuck for a while but eventually BMW sent a service personnel with big tool box to some Bhutan border town, where he got his bike and a proper fix was done. He is one happy rider so far. So yes, living in remote places will have its own challenges but overcoming those challenges is also a part of motorcycling experience.

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If you have guessed my age to be in the mid 20s not only will I be thankful for the compliment of youth, I will also save more than a dozen candles on my next birthday.
Wishful thinking! Bonnie and 20s don't go together.
Couple of years back, i had gone to see a used T100 which was available for sale. One elderly gentleman owned that beauty and had maintained it beautifully. After some chit-chat, he introduced his young nephew who would take the talk forward on the cost etc. That young man seemed interested in motorcycling and on asking why he wasn't using the T100, he said these bikes for oldies and he is very happy with his Duke 390.

Quote:
In short, I am looking for an adventure tourer. I am a firm believer that touring motorcycles should have long service intervals. For Example, The Suzuki V-Strome 650 XT, has a very short service interval at 4000km, whereas the Himalayan was said to be serviced at every 10,000.
Himalayan was initially positioned with service interval of 10k kms, which was later revised to 6K kms. Guess the elusive KTM390 adv may come close to your requirement, but then its just been in thin air for the longest time. Even versys 300X or 650 fits to an extent.

Last edited by Gannu_1 : 13th December 2018 at 08:27. Reason: Smileys = 2 per post.
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Old 12th December 2018, 20:21   #188
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Default Re: Big vs Small Touring Bikes

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Originally Posted by rdst_1 View Post
A service engineer for my dishwasher and WM would have to travel 300kms just for me and I will have to pay for his travel and extra visit charges.
But a dishwasher or a washing machine wouldn't need regular services like a bike does. And worst case scenario, changing one isn't as costly as changing a bike to another brand either - the usage conditions are safe and reliability levels are far higher too with such machines.

Any of the current premium motorcycle brands, which does limited numbers will be a gamble in terms of spares if you're unlucky and some crucial yet not so common part conks off - like a member is facing with this 310GS as reported in the thread now.

Considering the availability of dealerships and numbers sold by KTM - your risk factor would be exponentially more with BMW than with KTM. You just need to test ride all options and decide if the bike is worth the gamble.
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Old 12th December 2018, 20:52   #189
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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
Considering the availability of dealerships and numbers sold by KTM - your risk factor would be exponentially more with BMW than with KTM. You just need to test ride all options and decide if the bike is worth the gamble.
Yeah, KTM seems like a safer bet just because it will be the same engine as well. Otherwise many Himachalis are accustomed to getting their expensive vehicles serviced in Chandigarh etc. just because they are not confident about the abilities of the machanics at local dealerships.
I too, am a bit accustomed to making such trips or to ask my trusted mechanics for a visit. My Bullet still gets serviced by my trusted mechanic from Chandigarh as does our 1.5L run Fiat Palio. Last year, Palio's clutch gave way on the way back from Barot Valley but we reached home somehow. I ordered the part from 99rpm and my mechanic drove down from Chandigarh and replaced the clutch at my doorstep.

So, as much as good service options are necessary, I wouldn't let that be a crucial factor. Reliability would be high on my list of priorities though as our early experience with Bullet in 1997 was badly marred by niggles which made us use it less and less. Our Bullet, until very recently, gave lot of trouble in the battery and charging department. My mechanic wanted to keep the bike in as original condition as possible but the problems didn't go away until we changed the coils and charging equipment to Electra based models. Still, I am not confident enough to take the bike out on night rides, even though the headlight is running directly on the alternator.
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Old 12th December 2018, 23:22   #190
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Originally Posted by rdst_1 View Post
My mechanic wanted to keep the bike in as original condition as possible but the problems didn't go away until we changed the coils and charging equipment to Electra based models. Still, I am not confident enough to take the bike out on night rides, even though the headlight is running directly on the alternator.
Since you've changed the Stator, RR and Ignition to that of an Electra's the only weak link in your system would be the wiring, reason I believe so is that you mentioned tapping HL power from the alternator which means that your wiring is not in stock form.

From my experience with workshops, no matter how reputed a mechanic might be you need to have a look at his customer base before determining reliability, because jugaad's which can have you running local errands for years to come would be the first to give out on your first interstate ride.

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Originally Posted by rdst_1 View Post
You believe you can question the second guys motives just because he changes bikes frequently.
Again not questioning as in such cases I just go with the path of least resistance i.e mind my own business and steer clear of such riders.

Here I'm just stating my observation and opinion among fellow enthusiasts in the interest that conclusions not be made based on buying preferences of someone who rides a motorcycle simply for the bling factor, because be it any motorcycle big/small when the intended use is cross country riding, the bling aspect of the motorcycle is its least concerning factor, at least as per me.

Not sure if my age and demographics have a play in the matter as from where I see things its what logically makes the most sense.

Quote:
There was a time, I used to have a different phone every 6 weeks. It wasn't because I wanted to be flashy and seek attention. It was because I had the opportunity to change phones that frequently and I was really into phones those days. Same was true for IEMs during a phase in my life. I have seen similar phases in many people on various forums. One of the forum members on Techenclave became an international level reviewer for headphones/IEMs during one such phase in his life. Doesn't make them any less passionate.
We're from two different places as far as our though processes on the matter go, not to mention two different degrees as far as passion goes given the above case.

I understand the case with mobiles and electronics, but the same cannot be said for a motorcycle unless seen from a more superficial standpoint considering the intended use be it anything long-term i.e riding or ownership.

The variables and their consequences are just too critical to be taken so casually.

Guess this is one of those things that some get and some don't, on which I'm still not sure which side of the scale I myself am.

Again that's just me.
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Old 12th December 2018, 23:50   #191
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Originally Posted by ashwinprakas View Post

Not sure if my age and demographics have a play in the matter as from where I see things its what logically makes the most sense.



We're from two different places as far as our though processes on the matter go, not to mention two different degrees as far as passion goes given the above case.

I understand the case with mobiles and electronics, but the same cannot be said for a motorcycle unless seen from a more superficial standpoint considering the intended use be it anything long-term i.e riding or ownership.

The variables and their consequences are just too critical to be taken so casually.

Guess this is one of those things that some get and some don't, on which I'm still not sure which side of the scale I myself am.

Again that's just me.
I don't think age is a matter. I am just 31 myself. I am guessing it is about experiences and mindsets and how opinions get shaped due to our experiences and exposure to different people and situations. However, you have agreed that our definition of passion is different and that's a good start.
I mentioned those examples of phones and IEMs because they are directly relatable. To most people it would seem that the guy buying and trying those new gadgets every few weeks was mad at worst and a show-off at best.
However, because these gadgets are relatively easier on the pocket, you will find thousands of such people all over the world. Visit head-fi or XDA forums sometime and you'll see varying degrees of passion. Even there it is not uncommon to see such debates where someone will compare a $50 device with something that costs 100 times more.
Most of the people on those forums have realized that gains at the higher levels are miniscule compared to what you pay for them, but it's their passion which fuels them to acquire such new devices even though the ROI is tiny. Same can be easily said for a guy who keeps changing his SBKs as soon as the next big thing drops in the market.

Edit - I'll PM you about the charging and lighting situation as that would be OT in this thread.

Last edited by rdst_1 : 12th December 2018 at 23:57.
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Old 13th December 2018, 09:46   #192
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Default Re: Big vs Small Touring Bikes

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Originally Posted by ashwinprakas View Post
I understand the case with mobiles and electronics, but the same cannot be said for a motorcycle unless seen from a more superficial standpoint considering the intended use be it anything long-term i.e riding or ownership.

The variables and their consequences are just too critical to be taken so casually.

Guess this is one of those things that some get and some don't, on which I'm still not sure which side of the scale I myself am.
Why? Mobile phones and electronics are commodities that anyone can purchase with his / her money. Just like motorcycles. Some people are more interested / fascinated in mobile phones (or any product for that matter) and choose to buy something which makes them happy by upgrading quickly. Why shouldnt the same be applicable to motorcycles?


What variables and consequences could possibly be so critical as to dissuade an enthusiast from logically upgrading his motorcycle every few months if he had the money and willingness to do so?
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Old 13th December 2018, 09:53   #193
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I understand the case with mobiles and electronics, but the same cannot be said for a motorcycle unless seen from a more superficial standpoint considering the intended use be it anything long-term i.e riding or ownership.
Honest suggestion - You should get into classic bikes restoration and ownership, if possible.

The attitude you have towards motorcycles - could make a career out of it, while enjoying timeless classics yourselves, and is a much better use case for all your passion and dedication to basic mechanical motorcycles.
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Old 13th December 2018, 09:54   #194
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What variables and consequences could possibly be so critical as to dissuade an enthusiast from logically upgrading his motorcycle every few months if he had the money and willingness to do so?
Why sir, the all-important opinions of 'true' motorcycle 'enthusiasts' who feel the need to justify their decisions and bike choices by defining what constitutes a 'true' enthusiast for everyone else and by putting down the choices of others!

I know because I used to be one too. Just because I had done a few rides here and there I began to judge. These guys were posers, those guys didn't ride hard enough, these chaps just showed off because they had better and more expensive bikes, etc. etc. Then I realized no one cares. Use the bike you can afford and use it the way you want to. If riding backwards to Khardung La on a Scooty Pep is your thing, great! If parking outside a mall with a Ducati 959 to pull the girls is your thing, hey even better! It's your bike, your thing.
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Old 13th December 2018, 16:11   #195
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Just my 2 cents on this issue.....
Background: I've been riding since I was 16 and now after seeing my 39th Diwali I can safely say that I've seen it all

Right from riding Rx135, Shogun, RD 350, Cast iron 350 and Machismo 500 in India to riding BMW's GS 1200, Triumph's Bonnie T100, Goldwing and a K1600 GT in the US I have had a lot of mixed emotions or experience in putting down one type of motorcycle as the go to motorcycle.

Nonetheless, I must say that the road conditions and the overall speed of traffic is the single most important factor to consider whether the motorcycle should be large or small.
Eg: In the US if you are doing touring on Freeways a small motorcycle is not advisable as they will not be able to keep up pace with the traffic and even if one does keep the motorcycle high revving to maintain the speeds overtaking maneuvers will have to be well thought out and even risky.
Does it mean that you need the multistrada's and the Goldwings of the world to tour in the US. Absolutely not! A 600 - 1000 cc motorcycle is more than enough. And enjoyable as well!


In India a trusted bullet is all you need to do cross country stints and therefore the way I look at the ideal motorcycle in India is a lot different.

Picture this: You are doing a tour on a huge motorcycle only to be stopped by a cow or a dog or a Garuda three wheeler or a two wheeler who decides to cross the highway without a regard to the oncoming traffic. Also when you doing above 120kmph speeds on the highway are you not bogged down by the thought of these so called morons crossing the road putting you and themselves in harm's way.

So I think a bullet is par for the course. If one would like to go for a larger motorcycle I would recommend the hard core tourers to get a Versys 650 or a VStrom 650 or a comparable style of motorcycle. This is all the motorcycle you would ever need in India.
Anything above is an overkill!


PS: I consider myself to have average riding skills so am comfortable with a below 900 cc myself. I enjoy rides on these more than I do on larger motorcycles. They are more fun and nimble and I am more relaxed when on these.
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