[Red Liner]

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

Also, it means that logistics and courier charges are baked in the final cost of the product.
.

They also cut out dealer commission. Which is a glorious 40% in the retail space.

I think it’s great that someone is trying out something new. Forget about all this sizing and made to measure innuendo. The quality of the materials they use is second to none in the Indian market.

Since the colours are made to order for the most part, and I think they want to stay off sizeable colour coded inventory, this approach makes total sense. Now whether it makes sense for the end customer, maybe not so much, but for a small independent world class motorcycle gear and apparel manufacturer in India to be trying something new, hat tip.

I am partial to viaterra, because of their sensible approach to luggage, their absolute zeal on quality, and their top notch customer service attitude.

[mohansrides]

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

Overall, Viaterra has adopted a rather puzzling go to market strategy. The USP for the new jackets was supposed to be customization...

But if the jackets are available off the shelf from retailer stores, then why even build the systems and processes to enable the above mentioned online customization. Conversely, why will retailers want to stock jackets from Viaterra when they know that the company offers additional customization options that customers will likely opt for instead?

Also with the number of permutations and combinations available, how will retailers decided what combinations to place orders for? Nobody will want dead stock. Also, I can see customers going to retailer outlets and trying Viaterra jackets for size and then going online and customizing the same model to their liking..

Neil.... you have absolutely nailed it. I was thinking about the exact points that you have made here.

The only way for the customised clothing and the off-the-shelf stock to co-exist is for the latter to be significantly cheaper. Else, the stage would be set for the dealer stock to never sell.

Originally Posted by Red Liner

...it’s great that someone is trying out something new. Forget about all this sizing and made to measure innuendo. The quality of the materials they use is second to none in the Indian market....

I am partial to viaterra, because of their sensible approach to luggage, their absolute zeal on quality, and their top notch customer service attitude.

I am with you on the general aspects of Viaterra. Their stuff is indeed very good quality. And they are a rare manufacturer that places perceptible emphasis on styling and design. They top all that off with amazing service. All this is absolutely true.

But that apart, we have to view any effort on its own merit. For the Munro jacket, I think it’s nice that we can choose different colour accents, armour, and liners. All that is good. But, I really don’t see the need for the whole exercise in terms of sizing. That aspect seems overdrawn to me. They could eliminate that step and still have considerable differentiation in the market.

Originally Posted by Red Liner

.....Since the colours are made to order for the most part, and I think they want to stay off sizeable colour coded inventory....

I think it is more likely that they are just striving for some differentiation in the market. Motorcycle riding gear is full of cookie-cutter offerings, and this made-to-order process looks like a way for Viaterra to demonstrate their commitment to quality.

If not for this process, the product would only start to become known for its quality after a few sales cycles when customers start to percolate their perceptions through the grapevine of rider groups. But now with this ordering process, the manufacturer’s focus on quality and customer satisfaction starts to become visible to the customer right from the beginning of the order and stretching up to final product delivery. By the time a customer gets the jacket, he/she is already primed to think of the brand as superior to anything in the market. I think that that’s quite interesting, and possibly genius. With their reputation for service, Viaterra are the only ones who can pull off such a process successfully.

Speaking of ‘made-to-order’, that’s the phrase that got me jumbled up. It’s a phrase that Viaterra repeatedly use on their website for the Munro jacket. If I recollect correctly, the language on their site is something like, “....the made-to-order jacket will take 2 weeks to get manufactured. If you cannot wait 2 weeks, then don’t order.”

Statements like this are what lead a customer into thinking that ‘made-to-order’ = ‘made-to-measure’. If something is not being tailored to my measurements, why would it take 2 weeks to even ship? That is what I am thinking, and I am willing to bet that plenty of customers would think the same thing.

Granted that Viaterra could just be setting customer expectations to cover for big order ques on their side. That’s their prerogative as a manufacturer. Still, I just wish that Viaterra would come out and state that the Munro jacket is NOT made-to-measure in big bold letters on their site. That would make me respect them more. Right now, plenty of prospective customers are labouring under the false perception of the jacket being custom tailored for them.

Cheers

[Axe77]

Originally Posted by mohansrides

Actually that is not clear at all. It wasn’t for me until I spoke to the guy. And at least one other guy I know also mistook the website language to mean made-to-measure.

But it is quite easy for the customer to get misled into thinking that the jacket is actually being tailored for him.

We can have different opinions on whether this product is worth it or not. But it is abundantly clear on their website (with a video from the first time I saw the page) on EXACTLY what they are customising. Misconstruing it is literally overthinking plainly written words and interpreting them in a knot.

Originally Posted by mohansrides

For the Munro jacket, I think it’s nice that we can choose different colour accents, armour, and liners. All that is good. But, I really don’t see the need for the whole exercise in terms of sizing. That aspect seems overdrawn to me. They could eliminate that step and still have considerable differentiation in the market.

This is clearly something some will find handy. I for one would not buy anything that is worn (even a pair of jeans let alone a riding jacket) online. I simply have to try it out. When I had to buy a pair of Forma boots, I waited till whenever I visited Bangalore, tried them at Orion, and THEN bought them, even though they could have sold it to me online. However, this meant (in the case of shoes) that I WAIT, since I was buying them from a store in a different city.

If I have to lose a small convenience fee to have the ability to try the item I am purchasing online, I think it is worth it. It is better to be able to try and reject than to repeatedly spend tons of money on really expensive gear and then spend time and lose money selling it at a steep discount after one or two uses. Surely you of all people can see the usefulness of that feature Mohan.

Even when you follow an on ground retail + online model, it is not possible to have retail coverage in every part of the country. For that, the option to be able to try at a minimal loss is extremely handy in my opinion for people living without that retail coverage in their city.

As I see it you have 3 primary issues with this product and its launch:

1. Lack of clarity on customisation: This is all you - not them. The website is absolutely clear on this and has always been so. Not a single earlier post on this thread misunderstood this aspect either.

2. Irrelevance of trial approach: This is subjective. No one else offers this. I am sure many will see value in the ability to try. If not, the process will evolve. For now, I am happy someone is trying to solve the issue of buying misfitting gear online.

3. Price: I don’t have a granular perspective on this but do agree with you and neil.jericho that it is a tad overpriced for what it offers. But then again, pricing is subjective too.

They have tried something new. Those who see value in that will go for it. Those who don’t are free to move on. I can’t see the point of overly critiquing something when they are trying a new way of delivering a product that no one else is doing in the market.

[bigron]

Any one has any idea if we can get replacement shoulder and elbow protectors that comes in Joe Rocket riding jackets ( leather/mesh) here in India.

Since my jackets are old the rubber protectors have disintegrated and need to be replaced.

[Red Liner]

Originally Posted by bigron

Any one has any idea if we can get replacement shoulder and elbow protectors that comes in Joe Rocket riding jackets ( leather/mesh) here in India.

Since my jackets are old the rubber protectors have disintegrated and need to be replaced.

I think you will need to post the actual protectors here so we can make an educated guess about which versions available here will match and fit in those pockets.

[bigron]

Originally Posted by Red Liner

I think you will need to post the actual protectors here so we can make an educated guess about which versions available here will match and fit in those pockets.

They are standard CE protectors that come fitted in all Joe Rocket Jackets be it mesh or leather. The only difference is size. They come in S/M and L/XL.
All Joe Rocket jackets in last 15 years support/use these and they only come in one version. The difference if any could be in the CE certification but that does not change the shape and fitting of the pads.

[Red Liner]

Originally Posted by bigron

They are standard CE protectors that come fitted in all Joe Rocket Jackets be it mesh or leather. The only difference is size. They come in S/M and L/XL.
All Joe Rocket jackets in last 15 years support/use these and they only come in one version. The difference if any could be in the CE certification but that does not change the shape and fitting of the pads.

I meant post a picture of your protector. Since many of us use D30 or forcefield, we will know by looking at them if they match.

Contact Lazy Ass Bikers in Mumbai and high note performance in Delhi who import D30 and Forcefield respectively and see if those fit in your pockets. Or find a retailer who imports and sells joe rocket in india if you want factory oem replacement.

[bigron]

The protectors are gone. They were crumbs when I removed them. But the images are there online.

The left ones are the elbow pads and the right ones shoulder.

[Red Liner]

Originally Posted by bigron

The protectors are gone. They were crumbs when I removed them. But the images are there online.

The left ones are the elbow pads and the right ones shoulder.

I think d30 or forcefield should be fine. Usually these things are standard sizes. To be sure, measure your existing protectors and see if they match the standard d30 or forcefield.

Between the two, i recommend only forcefield

[Sheel]

Originally Posted by bigron

Any one has any idea if we can get replacement shoulder and elbow protectors that comes in Joe Rocket riding jackets ( leather/mesh) here in India.

I got mine from Performance Racing, Bombay. You may try them.

[r_nairtvm]

Originally Posted by bigron

The protectors are gone. They were crumbs when I removed them. But the images are there online.

The left ones are the elbow pads and the right ones shoulder.

I was in same boat as you are few weeks ago. I saw these in Amazon India and bought them

https://www.amazon.in/Jacket-Armour-.../dp/B07B2GLVC8

But to my dismay the quality was pathetic as the elbow pieces were already well in to a state of disintegration The shoulder pieces were serviceable.

Please avoid these, if you can

Gave feedback on Amazon, but yet to hear from them.

Picked up a a set from Dubai finally - D3O level ones.


Best Regards & Ride Safe

[RiderZone]

Originally Posted by bigron

Any one has any idea if we can get replacement shoulder and elbow protectors that comes in Joe Rocket riding jackets ( leather/mesh) here in India.

Since my jackets are old the rubber protectors have disintegrated and need to be replaced.

Would be a good time to upgrade protection/comfort. These level 1 protectors should give more airflow: https://www.bikeratti.com/subcategory/d3o-lp1

Here are some level 2 ones: https://www.bikeratti.com/subcategory/d3o-t5-evo-pro

There are other level 2 options as well with great airflow, like Alpinestars Nucleon flex pro and D3O LP2, but I can't find them anywhere in India. Available at FC-Moto.de.

[neil.jericho]

Whether we love Viaterra's go to market approach for the new Munro jacket or find it complicated, there is no denying that the company has built a solid reputation for itself in the market, especially for its luggage systems and we all want the company (and other Indian manufacturers) to succeed on their merit.

Moving away from the sales strategy and onto just the product for a minute. I went back to Viaterra's site to see what I get with zero customization. For a price of Rs 11,099 I get a black mesh jacket with YF protectors for the shoulders, elbow and chest. I cannot figure out if these are Level 1 or 2 at this moment. Also, there is no rain liner or thermal liner included in this. I assume (rightly or wrongly, as it may be) that these base jackets are the ones that will be sent out to retailers.

If I add the basic rain liner, basic thermal liner and upgrade armour to Sastec for all areas, the price goes up to Rs 18,497.

Rynox has the Storm Evo jacket that offers CE Level 2 Knox armour for shoulders and elbow, an unnamed CE Level 2 back protector and foam protectors for the chest that can be upgraded. The price of the chest protectors is not available, so Im assuming its Rs 1,500. The Rynox jacket comes with thermal and rain liners as well. Total price is Rs 9,750 + Rs 1,500 = Rs 11,250.

Assuming we want to swap the back protector for a more reputed option, that still puts the pricing of the equivalent Rynox jacket well over Rs 3-4K below the equivalent Viaterra jacket and that money gets you a nice pair of gloves from either of them.

So product for product, I feel that Viaterra has priced themselves at a significant premium. It will be interesting to see how the market accepts this pricing (irrespective of the product delivery strategy) and how the competition responds.

Originally Posted by Red Liner

They also cut out dealer commission. Which is a glorious 40% in the retail space.

Wow, is it that high these days? Agree with you on the point.

Originally Posted by Red Liner

Since the colours are made to order for the most part, and I think they want to stay off sizeable colour coded inventory, this approach makes total sense. Now whether it makes sense for the end customer, maybe not so much, but for a small independent world class motorcycle gear and apparel manufacturer in India to be trying something new, hat tip.

Inventory management is going to be the biggest challenge for Viaterra and I hope they have it under control, else they will burn a lot of cash in trying to cater to individual orders and producing stock to send to their retailers.

Originally Posted by mohansrides

The only way for the customised clothing and the off-the-shelf stock to co-exist is for the latter to be significantly cheaper. Else, the stage would be set for the dealer stock to never sell.

I wanted to mention this in my previous post but stayed away since these are still early days for both the product and the sales approach. Now that you have brought it up though, let me throw my 2 cents in. I agree with you, there is no incentive for dealers to take any stock unless the pricing to the customer is cheaper than the online equivalent.

Lets assume that is the case, this raises a question, why will customers opt for a more expensive jacket just for the colours (which are plug and play and cost nothing additional as per the site)? This counters their current customization model.

Or will Viaterra sell only the base black jackets without any liners through their retailers and push for every customized jacket to be built through their online process?

To me, the strategy leaves more questions than answers the more I think about it.

Originally Posted by Axe77

Even when you follow an on ground retail + online model, it is not possible to have retail coverage in every part of the country. For that, the option to be able to try at a minimal loss is extremely handy in my opinion for people living without that retail coverage in their city.

All valid points Axe77. Always try and buy for riding gear.

[mohansrides]

Wanted to wait a while to diffuse the tension a little bit.

Originally Posted by Axe77

..But it is abundantly clear on their website (with a video from the first time I saw the page) on EXACTLY what they are customising. Misconstruing it is literally overthinking plainly written words and interpreting them in a knot.

1. Lack of clarity on customisation: This is all you - not them. The website is absolutely clear on this and has always been so. Not a single earlier post on this thread misunderstood this aspect either.

Let's just agree to disagree on this. You may be right that it is all me with my misinterpretation. But, I am fairly sure that me and misinterpretation are not alone. For sure there is at least one other guy (from your own Triumph group) who was happily misinterpreting along with me. Also, the notion that no one else has commented here on this thread about made-to-measure does not automatically mean that they are carrying the correct interpretation. It could very well be that they haven't articulated their own assumption to themselves, and that the jacket not being made-to-measure just dawned on them when someone mentioned it here. That was certainly the case with me. Until Viaterra bothered to mention it in our private conversation, I hadn't fully realized my own assumptions w.r.t made-to-measure.

All I know is that Viaterra would do well to provide greater clarity on their website.

Originally Posted by Axe77

..This is clearly something some will find handy. I for one would not buy anything that is worn (even a pair of jeans let alone a riding jacket) online. I simply have to try it out.

If I have to lose a small convenience fee to have the ability to try the item I am purchasing online, I think it is worth it. It is better to be able to try and reject than to repeatedly spend tons of money on really expensive gear and then spend time and lose money selling it at a steep discount after one or two uses. Surely you of all people can see the usefulness of that feature Mohan....

Even when you follow an on ground retail + online model, it is not possible to have retail coverage in every part of the country. For that, the option to be able to try at a minimal loss is extremely handy in my opinion for people living without that retail coverage in their city....

2. Irrelevance of trial approach: This is subjective. No one else offers this. I am sure many will see value in the ability to try. If not, the process will evolve. For now, I am happy someone is trying to solve the issue of buying misfitting gear online.

I don't have a problem with anyone finding this process handy. It is not handy for me; and it is my prerogative to say it here on this forum. And as you have so rightly said, their process will indeed evolve. Me speaking up on a forum like this is actually to help Viaterra better their process. What is wrong with that?

Originally Posted by Axe77

..I can’t see the point of overly critiquing something when they are trying a new way of delivering a product that no one else is doing in the market.

Overly critiquing?

I think you have me pegged for someone else. There are plenty of people here ranting about the slightest of missteps by manufacturers and brands. Me? Not so much. People who know me, like you do, know that I am fairly balanced. If I like something, I am never stingy with my compliments, and if I think that something could be better, I don't hesitate to say so. Case in point, I bought a Bajaj. Love it. Said so. Hated the sales process. Said that too; and I said it in a way that actually helped them better it. I got feedback calls from Bajaj sales (long after I bought my motorcycle) thanking me for helping them get better, and also for referrals of prospective customers.

Coming back to Viaterra, these are my quotes from this thread.

Originally Posted by mohansrides

Their (Viaterra's) stuff is indeed very good quality. And they are a rare manufacturer that places perceptible emphasis on styling and design. They top all that off with amazing service. All this is absolutely true.

...this made-to-order process looks like a way for Viaterra to demonstrate their commitment to quality.

...With their reputation for service, Viaterra are the only ones who can pull off such a process successfully.

Here are some from my other thread.

Originally Posted by mohansrides

[list][*]Fully waterproof tailbag - By Viaterra Claw (available here). Totally unnecessary purchase. Bought 14 months ago and still brand new with all its tags. This thing is absolutely cavernous and can challenge most check-in bags in terms of carrying capacity. I have never gotten around to doing a trip that will do justice to the Claw. But, I will say this. The quality of the product is top notch; as good as any imported product that I have seen. Also, the Viaterra guys know how to conduct a business. Queries by WhatsApp are answered promptly and substantively. Their customer focus was so reassuring that I bought a bag from them that I don't even need.

[*]Helmet Visor Sleeve - By Viaterra (available here). Absolutely brilliant product. Very thoughtfully executed. I use it every single time to carry my alternate visor. Every rider out there should order an alternate visor and keep it in one of these sleeves.

So, just to clarify, I have no vested interest in bashing Viaterra. On the contrary, I have been quite laudatory of them on many occasions, both here and elsewhere. But, I won't gloss over aspects that I don't like and can't get onboard with just because I like something (or someone or some brand). That's just not me.

Incidentally @Axe77, you are the quintessential nice guy. From what I know about you, you will never open your mouth unless it is to say something nice. That's great. That's fantastic, in fact. But, for what its worth, I suppose I am just not as nice a person as you are. In any case, there's nothing to be done about that now. We all bring ourselves to this community and we help it move forward in our own little ways.

Cheers

[Axe77]

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

there is no incentive for dealers to take any stock unless the pricing to the customer is cheaper than the online equivalent.

Lets assume that is the case, this raises a question, why will customers opt for a more expensive jacket just for the colours (which are plug and play and cost nothing additional as per the site)? This counters their current customization model.

Or will Viaterra sell only the base black jackets without any liners through their retailers and push for every customized jacket to be built through their online process?

I am not an expert on franchise / dealership arrangements but with my customer hat on as well as speaking intuitively on a general note, i believe anyone who is selling online as well as via third party dealers will have to ensure that the prices for online and retail are the same. That neither price (in default mode) is higher or lower than the other and they both operate on a level playing field. I am pretty sure manufacturer arrangements with dealers have pretty specific provisions on the pricing of the product and perhaps even on discounts etc. that can be offered and this is how they are likely structured.

The advantage to the manufacturer selling online of course is that what would be the dealer margin is also profit in the pocket.

On stocking up with dealers, not sure how that will play out. One possible outcome is that while one cannot customise the color scheme while buying retail, retailers will be able to sell the jacket on a customised basis - i.e. with inner liner or without etc, with the same pricing markup.

It is also possible that retailers could feed into the customisation play where the customer can try out the right size at the retailer’s and then order the custom colours etc via the retailer which then arrives to him in customised but eliminating the trial phase of the custom jacket being couriered. That way the retailer isn’t over stocking but he becomes a handy point of purchase for the walk in customer who still wants the customised jacket.

These are just possibilities that come off the top of my head - i have not read into what viaterra actually has planned or anything.