[S.MJet]

Originally Posted by for_cars1

Again, this depends on how well engineered is the heavier car.

Agree, this is what I wanted to say, of the two cars with similar structural integrity, heavier car is likely to be more safe.

[aseem]

Originally Posted by alavandar

1. I am a Fiat fan and Fiat is a gone case as far as marketing their product is concerned.
2. For Swift fans, who own one, there is no need for any panic reaction. As far as we know the limitation of our vehicle and drive it within the safe envelope (considering traffic condition, dead stop distance, road condition (dry/wet), day/night drive and how mad or sane the other road users at that point of time), there is no problem. This is easier said than done.
3. My approach would be, try and sell and buy a safer car, in due course. Keep using the Swift for long drives also but do not be swift with that!!

VW is no saint. My 2014 Jetta has 6 Airbags whilst 2013 Jetta Highline had 8. In addition I read even Jetta that is a CKD is not the safest so leave alone 2 airbag car from VW.

In a country where still majority of car owners have graduated from 2 wheelers and families of 4 ride in a scooter and buses are not road worthy. Why single out MUL?

Coming to ABS I have experienced this first hand that car braking distance increases in snow but you do get ability to steer in panic braking in snow if you have ABS and don't get it if you don't. However it's been established the pros outweigh the cons so ABS is desirable. Having said that in US you do get cars where you can turn off abs and traction control all together.

[Yeldo]

Originally Posted by RSR

The official Swift ZXi report has now been published by Latin-NCAP.... The model tested was a made-in-India petrol RHD version, or the Swift ZXi on sale in India. The bodyshell was rated as unstable, .

...Scoring 3-stars on the Latin/Global NCAP is not a pathetic result at all, even if the cabin structure was rated as unstable after the test, ...

So the Swift, even in its export/ EU guise is not a structurally rigid car. And since that is the first requirement, it is of no use even if side or curtain airbags are added!

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

I would have preferred them to test the models from all major manufacturers before coming up with such a recommendation against Renault-Nissan. Really curios how the big names like Toyota and Honda would fare in this regard- with their Brio and Liva models. That would have made for an even playing ground.

Anyways, it's a welcome step and I hope things get a lot better when the BNVSAP gets implemented by 2017.

If every brand was tested, it would have been definitely better.

But as you said, we now know at least 2 cars that are not safe!

Like somebody pointed out here, when the Indian government enacts legislation, let us hope that in addition to meting minimum requirements, there should be full disclosure on how well a car fared in the test.

[vineethvazhayil]

Originally Posted by aseem

Coming to ABS I have experienced this first hand that car braking distance increases in snow but you do get ability to steer in panic braking in snow if you have ABS and don't get it if you don't. However it's been established the pros outweigh the cons so ABS is desirable. Having said that in US you do get cars where you can turn off abs and traction control all together.

ABS switch off option is not available on any car, AFAIK, but you can hack the electronics to add a switch like that. People going offroad etc use that sometimes. Stability control off is a common switch, Traction control can be made strong, normal and off on many cars. Even in the "off" position, they are often not off.

Anyway, all of that is mandatory in EU and US - ABS, TCS, ESC - all three - on all variants of cars, along with airbags.

[A350XWB]

Originally Posted by zenren

Since when did airbags (something that helps in the event of a crash) become a more critical safety feature than ABS which is a feature that actually help in preventing the crash in the first place

Umpteen number of times, I've heard this argument that ABS helps in preventing an accident. Please understand that this is no magical device, with heavenly intervention that steers you away from danger. It helps a driver, with sufficient skills and that's it. Merely having ABS in your car will not guarantee your safety. There has been numerous cases where the pulsating pedal caused panic to the driver and he/she has taken the foot off the pedal, with undesired consequences. Below is a study conducted by NHTSA on accidents about ABS equipped cars. (It is from 1994, but the point remains, as ABS has been in use since 1985 in the US)
Link:
I'm not against ABS and both my cars are equipped with ABS and airbags. I've experienced ABS myself on couple of occasions and believe that with the right skill, it is really useful. I only want to say that ABS as such, is no magic wand which prevent accidents, unlike airbags, which does not require the intervention of the driver, if a crash really occurs.

Originally Posted by Yeldo

So the Swift, even in its export/ EU guise is not a structurally rigid car. And since that is the first requirement, it is of no use even if side or curtain airbags are added!

Wrong, the EU spec car is manufactured in Suzuki's Hungary plant. (Link) In the Euro NCAP, the Swift got 5 stars and the passenger compartment remained stable (Link). So obviously, the European model is different from the Latin and Indian (or made in India) models.

[parrys]

The new joke now says that 64 kmph crash test is not suitable for India, but a 56 kmph crash test would be more appropriate.

Manufacturers and their government influence I tell you.

Don't the cars involved in the crash test achieve speeds higher than 64 kmph? They do, may be can add more 100 kmph to it; still, the gurus think otherwise.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Where does this myth come from that people in India don't drive fast, regularly dangerously fast for the circumstances? I have lived in two big cities: Chennai and London. There is nothing slower about Chennai.

[aseem]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

Where does this myth come from that people in India don't drive fast, regularly dangerously fast for the circumstances? I have lived in two big cities: Chennai and London. There is nothing slower about Chennai.

Try living in Bangalore. Average speed of 10 km per hour.

[ajaypjayaraj]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

Where does this myth come from that people in India don't drive fast, regularly dangerously fast for the circumstances? I have lived in two big cities: Chennai and London. There is nothing slower about Chennai.

+1

Infact we should have more stringent rules for building safer cars, for speeds are no less on our roads, law enforcement is a joke and civic sense is almost absent. Compare that with places where speeds are no less, there is proper lane discipline and road sense, most of the people follow rules.. which place needs cars built for higher safety standards?

Originally Posted by aseem

Try living in Bangalore. Average speed of 10 km per hour.

You missed the point. I have seen the madness in Bangalore on the smallest of empty stretches of roads. That was not 10 Kmph, that would not have been 100 kmph also. That was "madness" kmph within the city. And that's not just Bangalore, It's seen everywhere on our roads.

[zenren]

Originally Posted by A350XWB

Umpteen number of times, I've heard this argument that ABS helps in preventing an accident. Please understand that this is no magical device, with heavenly intervention that steers you away from danger. It helps a driver, with sufficient skills and that's it. Merely having ABS in your car will not guarantee your safety.

I'm not against ABS and both my cars are equipped with ABS and airbags. I've experienced ABS myself on couple of occasions and believe that with the right skill, it is really useful. I only want to say that ABS as such, is no magic wand which prevent accidents, unlike airbags, which does not require the intervention of the driver, if a crash really occurs.

I'm fully aware of what ABS can do and what it cannot do.

I was only criticizing the so-called new advocates/apostles of safety in India who say they are having the safety of the Indians in their mind and hence providing dual airbags as standard in all their cars. If they say they are not compromising on safety in their cars, I'm just confused why they are still skipping ABS in their cars (lower variants) when the safety standards internationally mandate it in all cars?

I'm not justifying Maruti, Hyundai or Nissan for providing below par shells in Indian cars when VW, Fiat and Ford can provide strong shells at similar price points. However, when Toyota starts proclaiming themselves on their renewed safety focus by fitting airbags to Etios/Liva, I cannot believe they are focusing on safety. May be its just the sceptical 'me' talking, but I don't have confidence that Etios would get a stable rating for their shell either, considering the pictures I've seen in the accidents thread.

[roamer012]

Originally Posted by parrys

The new joke now says that 64 kmph crash test is not suitable for India, but a 56 kmph crash test would be more appropriate.

Manufacturers and their government influence I tell you.

Don't the cars involved in the crash test achieve speeds higher than 64 kmph? They do, may be can add more 100 kmph to it; still, the gurus think otherwise.

Please correct me if I am wrong but wouldn't the concept of relative speed kick in during collision with vehicle coming from opposite direction?

[A350XWB]

Originally Posted by zenren

I was only criticizing the so-called new advocates/apostles of safety in India who say they are having the safety of the Indians in their mind and hence providing dual airbags as standard in all their cars.

zenren, I completely understand your views. My comment was directed only on the statement about ABS, which I'm hearing in this forum since the time I joined. And believe me, many people think that if you have ABS in your car, accident will not happen. Most people forget that ABS requires a skilled driver behind the wheel to avoid certain accidents. The link I shared has the statistics and surprisingly, there is no effect of ABS in certain kind of accidents and for some situations, there is a % increase of accidents, with ABS.
I also do not feel that any of the manufacturer here in India is absolutely serious about the safety of their customers. But something is better than nothing. If they really want to promote safety, the manufacturers should at least give ABS, dual airbags and a safe passenger compartment which does not buckle or intruded in case of a hit; in every variant.
For Maruti, the major issue is the compromised structure on Indian variants compared to the EU version. This clearly shows double standard and callous attitude towards it's largest market. And the cherry on the cake is the comment from the management. Simply put, they declare that Indians do not need safe cars!

[zenren]

Originally Posted by A350XWB

believe me, many people think that if you have ABS in your car, accident will not happen. Most people forget that ABS requires a skilled driver behind the wheel to avoid certain accidents.

That is more or less applicable in case of airbags too. On those same lines, the airbags could prove to be an even bigger menace if people are not aware of what it can do and what it cannot do. General awareness created among the public about the airbags, thanks to our ignorant sales advisors is that it is something that would protect the occupants like magic in a crumbled car in case of a high speed crash and hence not needed for slow drivers.

The old folks who used to say "I don't drive fast and hence don't need an airbag" would still drive as usual and would be safe now from a head on collision. However, if some clowns start ripping apart their airbag equipped cars thinking their 'magical' airbags would save them from a 100km/h crash, God save the innocent fellow road users! Currently, we are seeing these in Honda Citys and BMWs (and hence lesser in number) but in future, be prepared to hear the same from young drivers in Altos and Eons!

Those of us who know more about the structural integrity knows that this is for a certain speed that we are speaking about - 64 km/h. However, if any manufacturer tries to claim they have a shell that didn't fail in European crash test without emphasis on the tested speed, the public would never assume that those would not be intact in case the speed is 80 instead of 64.

[swiftnfurious]

Originally Posted by aseem

Try living in Bangalore. Average speed of 10 km per hour.

I lived in Bangalore for 5 years, had a car for 3 years and every day I used to drive beyond 10 kmph; sometimes upto 80 kmph! Probably I was in a different part of Bangalore.

My regular timing was 40 mins for 19 odd kilometers which approximates 30 kmph average (Data for close to 1 year).

And there are NOT many people who can afford a car for just city drives @ 10 kmph; most of them also use it for journeys with much higher average speeds & top speeds too.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by ajaypjayaraj

You missed the point. I have seen the madness in Bangalore on the smallest of empty stretches of roads. That was not 10 Kmph, that would not have been 100 kmph also. That was "madness" kmph within the city. And that's not just Bangalore, It's seen everywhere on our roads.

And London, when I last looked had been stuck at 8MPH since forever.