[sourabhzen]

Originally Posted by civic-sense

Figo's structure was intact, and a version with airbags was never tested. So Figo is cheaper than Maruti, still safer

A zero star is zero star. Safer at what speed, is the question.

Originally Posted by civic-sense

A Polo/Figo without airbags would have been safer than the Swift without aribags since the structure of the former is not compromised.

Again how much safer and what speed? What would be the result at 60kmph is anybody's guess.

Originally Posted by civic-sense

Does that mean that you were somehow privy to Maruti's decision to make the Swift's structure unsafe, and yet decided to buy it?

This statement is uncalled for and I do not see any reason why it should be answered. However, please check the available options in 2008 and decide.

Originally Posted by civic-sense

In fact the only thought process most mango men do is look for the "M" badge.

What are the available options? List them and see why M badge sells.

Originally Posted by civic-sense

Yes they did, they charged you the same money for a compromised car.

No they did not. They charged me much less than little less compromised car

Originally Posted by civic-sense

There is nothing elitist in safety. The not-so-elite (which incidentally I am) too, has every right to consider his life precious.

I considered my life precious and graduated from bike to a car when my daily commute was 70 + kms. It all relative, you see. Your safety is my luxury. You are 'not so elite' and can consider your life precious. While others 'not so elite' can consider a Alto 800 over an auto or bike to make their life little more safer.

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by sourabhzen

People in this thread are behaving as if they thought of Marutis cars as strong as tanks before NCAP reports were out. All of us here knew of what are the qualities and limitations of Maruti before buying them.

I agree with this statement of all.

Having brought a Dzire for my native for their use, I will say that I didn't dream of it being a tank, nor did I believe that the Euro NCAP would hold good for the Indian version of the car. Nor am I protesting in front of the Maruti showroom for allegedly cheating me by providing a tin can as what it is called now. Simply because given what we could afford, and what was the circumstances, neither could I buy a German tank nor a second hand car with all safety features, or even the ZXi for the heck of it. There is no VW or Fiat or Skoda or Ford or Honda service centre around a 80km radius from where the car is stationed. There is a Hyundai service centre, but the Xcent scored three stars in the Euro NCAP, and you can imagine what would happen for an Indian variant. The Amaze was as flimsy as my WagonR and its so called 'sheet metal' didn't impress either. So should I have brought a used Linea, the tank? It would have sat on one of the potholes in my native, and the tow truck had to come from 80km away. Of course now if I m selling the SX4 I would buy a Vento and not a Ciaz because I have an option, which is also a better option. That's also because the car will be used here, with quick access to a service centre, and since I can afford maintenance costs personally.

Having gone for the top end SX4 at a time when ABS and Airbags was a luxury feature, I very well know how important safety features are. My car was once T-Boned by an Indica whose entire engine bay was crumpled but my car came out with a torn fender and door. I have told each person whoever brought a car to go for the top end version though most of them never did so. But there is a situation when we ourselves cannot do so. Classifying people who went in for these cars as dumb or mango men would be an easy job for people who aren't capable of thinking from another's shoes. In fact if I walk into my basement right now, there is only my car with a safety kit. There are ten other cars right from a base punto to a polo trendline(initial) to a i20 era at whose owners I can laugh at, telling how dumb they are. The response I would get would be obvious.

Hence, yes the fact is accepted and I am not arguing about how safe the car is. But the way people are reacting here is uncalled for. I don't think a person owning a swift or a dzire would be feeling good seeing that. If you see a few pages back I myself criticised Marutis policies and did the so called 'bashing' . But lately this thread just gave a room for all kinds of comments and statements which doesn't feel so good to see.

I would rather like to see what the actual differences are in a Five star rated swift and the zero star version, and also know what is the changes in the assembly line for the safer swift and the swift meant for the mango men(if there exists one)

Request the MODS to kindly streamline the thread to talk about technical aspects and outcomes rather.
Cya!

[RSR]

Originally Posted by audioholic

the Xcent scored three stars in the Euro NCAP

When did this happen? I don't think the Xcent has been tested by Euro-NCAP or any other NCAP, as of now.

It's a different matter that the Indian Xcent's result would have been a zero, as the base model does not have even a single airbag.

The European i10 (new generation one, made in Turkey) was tested, and it got a 4* Euro-NCAP (2014) rating. The Indian Grand i10 & Xcent share their platforms with this one, but one does not know how they would fare in an NCAP crash test unless we have confirmation of the same (because Hyundai India did compromise with the old i10 for our market, when compared to the European one ).

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by RSR

When did this happen? I don't think the Xcent has been tested by Euro-NCAP or any other NCAP, as of now.

It's a different matter that the Indian Xcent's result would have been a zero, as the base model does not have even a single airbag.

The European i10 (new generation one, made in Turkey) was tested, and it got a 4* Euro-NCAP (2014) rating. The Indian Grand i10 & Xcent share their platforms with this one, but one does not know how they would fare in an NCAP crash test unless we have confirmation of the same (because Hyundai India did compromise with the old i10 for our market, when compared to the European one ).

Yes I was mentioning about the European i10 which is our Grande i10. And yeah it is a four star rating. Got carried away by zero and three stars here Going by the i10 which had a bad score, I think Hyundai also does a maruti in this regard.

[ajaypjayaraj]

Originally Posted by audioholic

...the way people are reacting here is uncalled for. I don't think a person owning a swift or a dzire would be feeling good seeing that... this thread just gave a room for all kinds of comments and statements which doesn't feel so good to see.
Request the MODS to kindly streamline the thread...

That would be a mammoth task! Because that's the case with almost every thread now. A few talking facts and rest bashing the brand they hate and praising the brand they love. And "facts" supporting both arguments pouring in! Streamline that huh? Good luck with that!

[arun_josie]

It is very easy to say "keep away from Maruti".But, that is not going to happen at least for few more years despite these GNCAP ratings. For a certain section of people with limited budget, Maruti is a safe zone for various reasons. There is a reason why Maruti is a high-selling car brand in India and that is because it is safer than a two-wheeler, which is what most of Maruti's customer base is graduating from.

Also, in my opinion most(NOT ALL) of them who buy an European brand choose it because they have a bigger budget or they are brand conscious or for a status. Its not because that they did a study of build quality of all manufacturers and then chose a VW/Skoda/Fiat etc.

As mentioned by few already, for someone who is moving from a 2W to Alto, Alto is the safest which he can afford and he will be very satisfied with that. Lets respect that rather than blame on the build quality.

I am not trying to defend Maruti here, but we can't blame people(even if he is a bhpian) going for Maruti as well. It is up to the Government to streamline the process and bring the car manufacturers in line with better build quality.

[Thad E Ginathom]

There is a reason why Maruti is a high-selling car brand in India and that is because it is safer than a two-wheeler, which is what most of Maruti's customer base is graduating from.

Is it?

That four wheels are necessarily safer than two is a premise that could stand a long, hard, look.

That look would also have to include danger to others as well as those inside the four-wheeler.

And, by the way, saying that a particular car is safer than the most dangerous vehicle on the world (worldwide) is not really saying much.

[RSR]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

Is it?

That four wheels are necessarily safer than two is a premise that could stand a long, hard, look.

I completely understand what you meant, and I fully support manufacturers making safer cars either of their own will, or because they were forced to do so by the government, NCAP, media, public pressure, competitors' pressure etc.

After the disastrous performance of Indian cars on G-NCAP & Latin-NCAP, I've started advising people to buy the safest car they can afford. I advise them to completely avoid variants without even a single airbag. Considering that even A-segment cars like the Alto and Eon come with a driver airbag on the top variant, this is not that difficult. Cars with 2 airbags & ABS are available from the next segment onwards.

However, isn't it an obvious fact that a car, any car, is safer than a 2-wheeler? More so in India, where the two-wheeler is often used to transport the whole family? With none of the them wearing even a helmet? Even without a collision with some other vehicle or a stationary object, one can fall and get injured badly, or even worse. Sadly, even things like reinforced kite strings (maanja) have been responsible for the deaths of two-wheeler riders. A nasty pothole or an unmarked speed-breaker (so common on Indian roads) on an otherwise smooth (but poorly lit) road at night may only mean a hard thud from the suspension or a little damage to the underbody in a car, but can turn out to be fatal on a two-wheeler.

Then there are other kinds of safety. For instance, a lady riding a 2-wheeler in a horribly misogynist country like India may be subjected to harassment by uncouth creatures on other two-wheelers, buses etc. A crude and uncivilised moron may spit out of a bus window at the wrong moment. And how does one safely take a small child or infant on a two-wheeler? An older child can at least wear safety gear and use the pillion seat (though I do not recommend this), but an infant or a toddler?

Don't get me wrong - I'm all for safer cars, and forcing manufacturers to make safer cars, but isn't it very obvious that any four wheeler is safer mode of transport than any two wheeler?

Yes, let's do everything to ensure that cars are made safer, and that manufacturers do not compromise in any way with the structural integrity of cars sold in India, and that basic active and passive safety features are made standard even on the base variants. No - I do not mean that manufacturers should be able to get away with making cars that perform as disastrously as the Datsun Go on a standardised crash test.

That look would also have to include danger to others as well as those inside the four-wheeler.

I agree with this. Given the way people drive & ride on Indian roads, a two-wheeler can (at times) be as dangerous to others as a four-wheeler.

[Thad E Ginathom]

However, isn't it an obvious fact that a car, any car, is safer than a 2-wheeler? More so in India, where the two-wheeler is often used to transport the whole family? With none of the them wearing even a helmet?

Yes ...and yes to many of your other comments too. But the problem is that when we get into a car we feel safe. We feel as if that thin sheet of steel is going to protect us from everything --- but it doesn't. Our feeling of safety is largely an illusion.


That motorbikes are used as family transport might as well be a population control method. It absolutely should not be allowed. And sure, we can't blame the bike manufacturers. Then we put the same people in a car, driven by the same guy, probably with no additional instruction in driving, but now with added-feeling-of-safety?

By the way, many people are clamouring for airbags, and, for myself, I would be one of them, but, in my car, the passengers are belted, there are no "loose" children, and I would no more allow a child sat on the lap of a front-seat passenger than I would fly. In those circumstances, airbags are not life savers, they are killers.

[Kratos453]

Some of the discussions here seem to be going off topic. Why are two wheelers even coming into picture here. I thought this thread was meant to discuss on making cars safe, not proving cars are better than bikes

I am slowly coming into terms to understand why Maruti is making huge bucks with zilch safety here in India. The comparison of a two wheeler with a car is probably an other USP for Maruti. I am not trying to offend anyone but my point is simple, when someone can afford 3 lakhs for a car I am sure he is no more a two wheeler owner. I cannot image a person owning splendor or even say pulsar to actually jump into the car category. And also if he is able to buy a car for 3 lakhs he should be able to spend an additional 20k for safety or even 40k. When buyers are able to cope up the ever increasing costs of cars then a base variant with safety features included shouldn't be a bother.

[TheARUN]

I think the least the Government can do as a stop-gap measure till they get all regulations in place is allow us to import the European built versions of the cars available here at zero duty. Would be nice to see some hot-shot Lawyer get the Supreme Court to direct the Government into getting this done.

Our Prime-Minister said 'make in India' I think the Chinese whisper became 'make cheap in India'

[phamilyman]

Originally Posted by arun_josie

It is very easy to say "keep away from Maruti".But, that is not going to happen at least for few more years despite these GNCAP ratings. For a certain section of people with limited budget, Maruti is a safe zone for various reasons.


I am not trying to defend Maruti here, but we can't blame people(even if he is a bhpian) going for Maruti as well. It is up to the Government to streamline the process and bring the car manufacturers in line with better build quality.

Agree here.

You cannot underestimate the fact that either we are all horribly optimistic about our life expectancies or driving styles, or that folks who have seen family members suffer while owning unreliable cars from other manufacturers (as an example, my brother had no AC and power window failed in his Xeta) or seeing crazy bills (a friend's was quoted a new bumper for his Vento at 32k) or wait for parts (many fiat cases). Some of these may be hearsay or apocryphal but the fact is that Maruti is synonymous with peace of mind ownership for most Indians. We know its not a tank - we didn't expect it to be.

When buying my car on a limited budget six years back - I traded off the airbags of a tata turbo DLX versus the quality of service and outright reliability of the Swift. Maybe I was optimistic! The Swift has not disappointed thus far and I can still take the car out without a second doubt on any journey, long or short!

But we didn't expect its safety to be this bad either. This does take the brand down a few notches for me when the time comes (soon) to replace the Swift.

IMHO its more incumbent on the government to set the minimum standard. Else manufacturers will continue playing with lives just like GM did in the US or probably Nissan / Maruti are doing here. I can't trust most cars in India because I'm sure most if not all are playing the same game.

I am sure even Indian manufacturers are not above sending a super-strengthened vehicle to BNCAP etc and selling a flimsier vehicle in the market. You can never truly trust mfrs except folks like Volvo.

[ssenhyd]

Originally Posted by arun_josie

It is very easy to say "keep away from Maruti".But, that is not going to happen at least for few more years despite these GNCAP ratings. For a certain section of people with limited budget, Maruti is a safe zone for various reasons. There is a reason why Maruti is a high-selling car brand in India and that is because it is safer than a two-wheeler, which is what most of Maruti's customer base is graduating from.

Also, in my opinion most(NOT ALL) of them who buy an European brand choose it because they have a bigger budget or they are brand conscious or for a status. Its not because that they did a study of build quality of all manufacturers and then chose a VW/Skoda/Fiat etc.

As mentioned by few already, for someone who is moving from a 2W to Alto, Alto is the safest which he can afford and he will be very satisfied with that. Lets respect that rather than blame on the build quality.

I am not trying to defend Maruti here, but we can't blame people(even if he is a bhpian) going for Maruti as well. It is up to the Government to streamline the process and bring the car manufacturers in line with better build quality.

Auto safety is one area where the "magic" of free market in terms of competition does not seem to be working in India. In the end Govt has to step in and legislate minimum safety regulations that all auto manufacturers have to comply with to ensure that they come out with safe cars.

Maruti will then be forced to add these minimum safety features even to their base cars Alto 800. I do not think that would automatically mean much higher car prices. Part of the cost of adding these safety features will have to be eaten up by manufacturers in terms of lower margins as they very well know that in this segment, increasing the prices would mean smaller volumes

[anshuman_v]

I am tempted to quote an adage here: In our family, in the earlier generation, we had a good old Premier Padmini. It had been with us for some 20 years. When the time came to sell it off, I was wondering who would buy it, and if I should give it off as scrap. My mother then made a very telling comment: 'In India, there is a market for everything, at all price points'. There is always a person who aspires for a car, and can maybe only afford 30k. And indeed, I sold our then family car for around that price, without any hassles at all.

So - while all of us rage and rant about the safety or lack of it, one point we should all realize is that at least the readers of this forum are now aware of safety, air bags et al. Let us spread this message and awareness around, whenever we are called for any purchasing decision in our circle of influence. So long as there is a demand for a certain product, there will always be a manufacturer who will supply that product.

[akj123]

I watched the NDTV show. Couple of things that came out:

1. The Mahindra rep (Mr Goenka) said that adding airbags & ABS cost about Rs 20,000/-, which he said was about 5% of the bill-of-materials for the vehicle. He also said they need to be imported as of now. I am guessing there are bunch of taxes etc to be paid too.

2. He also mentioned that people who want safety features have to buy the higher variants and go for features they don't need/want (good to see someone from industry acknowledging this!). They have launched Scorpio with an option of adding on Airbags/ABS in all variants - about 60% people purchasing the base variant opted for it.

In any case, Airbags/ABS can be purchased, but if manufacturers are going to compromise on the basic shell, there is nothing that we as consumers can do.

Before these tests came out, the only option for safety-conscious buyers was to look at Euro-NCAP rating. There was no "scientific" way to translate that to rating for the india-sold version. How could a buyer possibly know that Swift was "compromised" but Polo is not ? I went for Swift assuming similar safety and better spread of service stations.

That is why I am feeling cheated today, as a consumer of Swift Zxi. No more Maruti!

In hindsight, I should have gone for the good old test - heavier sheet metal, heavier doors, the "solid thud" of the door. Turns out, by chance perhaps, that was still a more reliable indicator of safety than "5 star rating and monocoque structure".