[esteem_lover]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

Khaadu, India has more billionaires than Japan or China, the most in the US. Our golfers are also no 1 in Asia. That's what I meant.
I don't watch cricket. Haven't in years. I just resent my TV time being taken!
BTW: No one has answered my question yet. Why can't India have a winning streak or a winning record like Australia or South Africa?

Golf is a professional individual sport. Their performances are directly linked to the money they earn.
Yes, Rathore is a gem as was sachin, dravid & ganguly in their time.
Regarding the winning streak, the cricket in these countries is a lot more organised & they play with passion. In India, it is a livelihood just like you & me would go to work only because we have to. Yes, we did have a winning while chasing streak of 17 matches where we chased & won which was broken in WI. We are flashes of brilliance. Nothing more.

Originally Posted by rks

There are probably dozens of young playes in India who would have done better than that against Bangladesh -- the sad case of Mohammed Kaif comes to mind.

Our senior "stars" are more bothered about their personal scores, averages, endorsements, their places -- t

could you name a dozen please ? the reserve strength is abmysal. Have you been to any of the challenger or ranji/duleep trophy games ? the standard of cricket is pathetic. If people like sachin,sourav & dravid have come through that, it is inspite of the system. When Ian Healy was ageing, there was this dasher who was pushing for his place. Healy would have played for a couple of years, but had to give in to a better player. He was virtually nudged out. Who is nudging sachin or sourav now ? Kaif ?? Please. What has he done in the 100 plus matches that warrant his inclusion & if he is included & he fails as he always does, who next ? There is absolutely no bench strength.

[maxbhp]

yesterdays's game was an inspiring one for us.

One thing i'd like to say is about the sportsman spirit of Yuvraj. He is one helluva team player. An asset for our team.Its true that he had his own bad times but thats there with every player even a Fedrer...err no, I mean most of them have it. They should shoe horn his skills for.

When he comes to flow with the shots you feel he is hitting a ping pong ball. Its just Amazing. After getting out , the guy was in no regrets inspite of him having a chance(I think definitely)of cracking a Ton. The reason was he never played for himself . He played for the whole team. Personal record didnt matter much to him. If it had been tendulakar he would have kept strike and would have made an attempt(mostly unsuccessful) to score 100

[navdeep]

Originally Posted by maxbhp

If it had been tendulakar he would have kept strike and would have made an attempt(mostly unsuccessful) to score 100

Lets see where will be Yuvraj at the age of Sachin. Or lets try to remember what was the status of Sachin when he was at the age of Yuvraj. Its easy to come to conclusions that the guy played selfishly or with team spirit.

[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by navdeep

Lets see where will be Yuvraj at the age of Sachin. Or lets try to remember what was the status of Sachin when he was at the age of Yuvraj.

So it's ok to be selfish if you're old, eh? Just like it's ok to ask for seniority-based contracts?

Khaadu, I've played enough sports at the school level to know that if you don't perform, you don't play. That however, is not the case with the Indian team.

[esteem_lover]

Good point navdeep. Tendlya at 22 was the toast of India. It was because of him that cricket in india has grown, criket marketing has grown, the BCCI has grown richer. Everything in Indian cricket is because of tendlya. lets not forget that just because he is 34 today (& still keeping his place in the team). Please name his replacement. He is not playing at anyone else's expense.Everyone switched on their TV sets just to watch him play & whenever he got out, the whole nation hurt. Gavaskar, the most selfish Indian batsman ever played till he was 36.

[navdeep]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

So it's ok to be selfish if you're old, eh? Just like it's ok to ask for seniority-based contracts?

Why your VP or MD gets more perks than you .. he is selfish. Man he is a senior. He has performed so he is senior. You cannot expect Sachin ( 36yr old ) to play like he use to play in the past. Its quite possible he may be given a certain role in the team looking at his present abilities.

[maxbhp]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

So it's ok to be selfish if you're old, eh? Just like it's ok to ask for seniority-based contracts?

Khaadu, I've played enough sports at the school level to know that if you don't perform, you don't play. That however, is not the case with the Indian team.

Very very very very right.

[SumitB]

Coming to the point of a VP or MD of a company getting more money, guys, they work (or get the work done) by being a VP or MD. Agreed, that it is the factory worker or the sales rep. who gets the work done but managing a 1000 workers or a 100 sales rep. is also 'work'. Comparing the perks of a MD or VP to the contractual agreements of a cricketer is un-called for. You mean to say that a senior player does more for the team than a new comer so he deserves a better deal? You cannot ride on Mr. X's reputation to get you through. Its not like Murli will tell Sachin that since you are batting I will bowl a lolly so that you will swing it for a six and tell Raina that he will take his wicket on the 1st ball. A company is different from a team. So this comparison is faulted from its very basic.

When we say that cricket is a team game then why do we have different perks for seniors and juniors? They are part of the same team so treat them in the same way.

When a player is part of the Indian cricket team, he is responsible for the hopes of a billion Indians. If he is not playing well, well we still support him but he should not take that support for granted and continue to play if he is out of form. Sehwag for example had an averave of under 20 for the last 1 year or so. He should have realized it and opted to sit out for a couple of tournaments instead of being dropped. If an Indian player does this on their own, then they will be supported more and probably get more endorsements. But what Sehwag did was wrong and also Dravid was wrong to have supported him. What if Sehwag gets out without much trouble against Sri Lanka? We will then say that he scored a century in the previous game because the opposition was weak and again people will be hunting for his head.

Golf probably is watched by 1 crore Indians and cricket by probably 50 crore. You cannot compare the loyalty of Indians based on golf or football or any other game. Its a game. Play it like one. Bicker about it if you want to but don't get personal.

The best suggestion someone gave me about cricket was to make all centurions sit out for one game after scoring a century so that his market value in the ad world remains low and making banning players from doing more than 2 or 3 ads per season. This will keep their income in check and also make then concentrate more on the game.

Guys don't get personal. Its a game. Play it like one.

[navdeep]

iYou mean to say that a senior player does more for the team than a new comer so he deserves a better deal?

yes because he has been in the game and performed for longer duration of time.

A company is different from a team.

A company is run by team efforts. Everyone has its own role ( MD/Worker ). So is the indian cricket team. All performing their roles. You cannot expect everyone to be swashbuckling. All cannot be openers/wicketkeeper/bowlers/batsman etc. The problem lies when you are not performing. My post was w.r.t Yuvi/Sachin.

[rks]

Originally Posted by esteem_lover

could you name a dozen please ? the reserve strength is abmysal. Have you been to any of the challenger or ranji/duleep trophy games ? the standard of cricket is pathetic. If people like sachin,sourav & dravid have come through that, it is inspite of the system. When Ian Healy was ageing, there was this dasher who was pushing for his place. Healy would have played for a couple of years, but had to give in to a better player. He was virtually nudged out. Who is nudging sachin or sourav now ? Kaif ?? Please. What has he done in the 100 plus matches that warrant his inclusion & if he is included & he fails as he always does, who next ? There is absolutely no bench strength.

I didn't mean to imply that there are dozens of players who can replace Tendulkar, Ganguly or Dravid. I was referring to this particular performance against Bangladesh, which leaves a really bad taste in the mouth. I am convinced that almost any decent Ranji Trophy team (say, the zonal champs) will put up at least 250 against this Bangladesh bowling attack, because these guys are not burdened by "stardom" and will hit the ball when it is there to be hit.

As for Kaif, there was a time when he was a regular, along with Yuvraj, and was doing very well. But unfortunately Kaif was never given his due. He always was at the receving end when the batting order was shuffled and was shunted in and out of the team. This happened when he was clearly outperforming some of our seniors, like Ganguly. I remember Kaif scoring a 90+ against England in a Test match and then being dropped. Even now if the team management backs Kaif like it is backing Yuvraj (thanks to Greg Chappell), he will surely justify his place. In fact if Greg has his way, the youngsters will get their due -- after all, he is an Aussie -- but that will not go down well with our MLAs and MPs and of course, our seniors.

[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by navdeep

Why your VP or MD gets more perks than you .. he is selfish. Man he is a senior. He has performed so he is senior. You cannot expect Sachin ( 36yr old ) to play like he use to play in the past. Its quite possible he may be given a certain role in the team looking at his present abilities.

Yes, but a VP or MD has shown consistent performance quarter after quarter. He/she is expected to INCREASE the company's revenues. Unlike our cricketers, who have a see-saw ride, with more downs than ups.

And I hope you know that if a company performs badly, or below the market's expectations, the chiefs normally get sacked. I don't see that happening here.

[navdeep]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

And I hope you know that if a company performs badly, or below the market's expectations, the chiefs normally get sacked.

Yes I agree. But I will not quote Sachin as non performer. He is not a threat to opposition as he use to be. I repeat he has a different role to play in the team. I don't think there is any other player in the reserves who can fill the place of Sachin ( even with current form ).

[SumitB]

I know that running a company requires teamwork. I am working as a director of a company I own and I know what it takes for my company to succeed. We are not discussing how to run a company and how to work in a team. We are discussing perks based on performance and not based on reputation. I made a point about the opposition not changing its performance based on our player's reputation. If our team had no doubts on their abilities, then why advocate for contracts based on seniority? I don't say that a player cannot be out of form ever, but there needs to be the same yard stick for all players. Irfan was dropped for non-performance but Sehwag is made to play in anticipation of his performing! Thats ridiculous.

If we would have dropped Sehwag much earlier, we would probably not be sitting here deliberating about his performance and he would probably have performed much better. Prime example was Ganguly. Also, Ganguly was no new-comer, but he was dropped without giving a damn about his record.

Also, we have a problem of regionalism in India. Where people from one region make a lot of noise if their player is dropped. This should also go if we are to succeed as a team.

[navdeep]

I think its simpler today.

NZ/Kenya - Nz
SA/Scot - Sa

Tomorrow is crucial. Ban/SL - Ban wins ?

[Steeroid]

Originally Posted by navdeep

Why your VP or MD gets more perks than you .. he is selfish. Man he is a senior. He has performed so he is senior. You cannot expect Sachin ( 36yr old ) to play like he use to play in the past. Its quite possible he may be given a certain role in the team looking at his present abilities.

Errr...if 36 yr old Sachin cannot play like he used to he must move his backside out gracefully. People in certain positions are not kicked out primarily because we would like to see them retire gracefully.

Seniority alone cannot be a criteria for hanging around. And in most organizations, its the big names that get the sack when the organization does not deliver. The younger ones are given a chance to continue.

However, in Team India its quite the reverse - the smaller fry get the sack while the 'Seniors' continue to play on goodwill thats past sell-by date.

As someone mentioned here - the key to success is consistent excellence. Not brief flashes of bright light in the long dark night that is Indian Cricket - such flashes serve no purpose but to temporarily blind the eyes that were otherwise getting accustomed to the darkness.