[nitinsharma1000]

Just thought I should post these here. I am not affiliated with this website but these are accounts of armed citizens that were able to do something other than what media is always reporting. Don't get me wrong I hate biased media from both sides of the political divide.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/armed-citizen/

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

200 rounds in different calibers means effectively you havent even reached Rookie level! You haven’t even got to the basic muscle memory and safety reflexes.

That is true, all my firing happened between age 15-17 years. After that I never got to touch a firearm. In India, the only way to get free firearm training is in NCC, in your teens. That is how I got it. And these days, almost no one joins NCC.

Originally Posted by asitmonty

You sound dangerous.

I am an old man now. Very harmless.

Originally Posted by asitmonty

I tried nunchaku but more often that not it hit in all the wrong places (ouch ).

Yes, that is how it is in the beginning. You got to have good muscle cover to bounce the nunchaku all over the body. When I started learning in 1988, I did have good muscle cover thanks to bodyweight calisthenics. After 2 years of regular practice, I stopped hitting in the wrong places.

Originally Posted by asitmonty

I have seen a Katana, but never really hold one. That thing is a beauty, but I don't think I have the balls to learn a real sword.

The truth is... sword is a less capable/versatile weapon compared to a spear (stick). While the stick is less sexy/scary, it is more effective, even against a sword.

Originally Posted by asitmonty

There is no data to support 'significant' part. That has got to be a personal opinion.

I see you are alluding to statistical understanding of 'significant'. What I am saying is the empirical knowledge among martial arts community. Weapons that need plenty of training to be effective, also provide the discipline to be careful with it and clear out all the overconfidence. A guy with a baseball bat in the trunk is usually lot more confident, than me with a bokken/stick. I can think of numerous ways how it can go horribly wrong.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by nitinsharma1000

Just thought I should post these here. I am not affiliated with this website but these are accounts of armed citizens that were able to do something other than what media is always reporting. Don't get me wrong I hate biased media from both sides of the political divide.
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Well, I for one, would think this website is extremely biased. Americanrifleman is the monthly publication of the NRA! It doesn’t get more pro gun biased than that!!

Apart from being a pro gun Extremely powerful lobby organisation, the NRA has found itself into troubled water over claims of fraud, misuse of funds and a whole bunch of other stuff. Not nice people.

Jeroen

[Gansan]

Originally Posted by Samurai

In India, the only way to get free firearm training is in NCC, in your teens.

I joined NCC in college for the very same reason! Those days the army firing range in Meenambakkam used to be visible from the electric train, and I had enviously watched all the goings on for years while going to school and vowed to fire those rifles one day!

Fast forward to 1977, I had joined my degree course in a college at Meenambakkam itself and of course the NCC too. A few weeks of parades went off well, then one day a visiting NCC/Army official was watching us march. After a while he called me and a few other cadets to fall out and stand on one side. Then he approached us, told us to stand at attention and ran his fingers between our legs from ankle to thighs, and declared our kees are touching, so we will not be allowed to appear for B and C certificate exams, whatever those were. Later some friends told us we can forget our expected firing range practice too. What?!!! Then what is the purpose of continuing in the NCC? I was crestfallen and did not even verify whether the last statement was correct or not. The next day I packed the uniform and shoes they had given in a carry bag, dropped it on the table of the NCC office in college and walked off!

Nowadays the firing range is still there, but is not visible from the train any more, though we can hear the shots. I had also seen an army firing range in Bangalore somewhere near Jalahalli many times, but it was not visible from the road either.

[tatafanatic]

Interesting thread, reminds me of a scene from movie 'The Last Castle', a colonel (desk job magnet) shows off his military collection to a three star general (war veteran played very aptly by Robert Redford), seeing it the general says;

“Any man with a collection like this is a man who's never set foot on a battlefield. To him a minié ball from Shiloh is just an artifact. But to a combat vet, it's a hunk of metal that caused some poor man a world of pain.”

[asitmonty]

Originally Posted by Samurai

In India, the only way to get free firearm training is in NCC, in your teens.

I signed up for the exact same reason. Missed the first firing session because I left for home during those 2 days. All that running around in the sun for months in vain. And then for some reason dropped out before the next session. But firing those 303 would have been a dream come true. Though I hear the recoil is pretty strong for teenagers (probably adults too). I wonder if it's worse than shotguns.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by asitmonty

Though I hear the recoil is pretty strong for teenagers (probably adults too). I wonder if it's worse than shotguns.

Let me point out another 15 year old post...

[nitinsharma1000]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Well, I for one, would think this website is extremely biased. Americanrifleman is the monthly publication of the NRA! It doesn’t get more pro gun biased than that!!

Apart from being a pro gun Extremely powerful lobby organisation, the NRA has found itself into troubled water over claims of fraud, misuse of funds and a whole bunch of other stuff. Not nice people.

Jeroen

But the articles can be corroborated from other news organization. I don't think we can just ignore these since these are posted by a biased organization.

[nitinsharma1000]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Let me point out another 15 year old post...

A 12 gauge shotgun(pump action or single shot/barrel) has a decent amount of recoil with magnum shells (3 inch). Shooting regular shells (2 3/4 inch) is much more comfortable. Semiautomatics are slightly better. Neither do they throw a person back like in the movies. For them to do that it would have to apply the same amount of force into the shooter.

A 303 recoils similar to a regular 12 gauge. Maybe a little less depending on the weight of the firearm. 303 is a very outdated round and has been in service since 1889. There were a lot of teenagers fighting in WW1 with these. I have never shot a 303 but I have owned a the Russian counterpart, a Mosin-Nagant in 7.62x54R which is similar. I could shoot that all day till I was too tired to hold it. Recoil has a lot to do with how and where you are holding the butt stock and the stance of the shooter.

Assault rifles do not recoil much due to them being semi automatic.

Handgun recoil is different. Revolvers had a longer push and pistols have more of a snap.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by nitinsharma1000

But the articles can be corroborated from other news organization. I don't think we can just ignore these since these are posted by a biased organization.

Sure, but that is not the point. This is a pro gun lobby organisation. All the gungho, macho, loonies swinging a gun are members. Spouting the second amendment and their right to bear arms. ( which also shows their lack of historical perspective in my opinion).

So they will publish articles about how peoples have saved their lives, or the life’s of loved ones, because they had a gun. Those stories could well be true. But they are missing the point entirely, because those few “positive gun stories” are completely outnumbered by all the horrendous gun related deaths. They are also choosing to ignore that when you own a gun, statistically you are more likely to be shot. Just like some members on this forum who still believe that owning a gun will make you more safe. As some other members pointed out, it might give you an elevated feeling of power, supremacy and a rush of adrenaline shooting some rounds, but it does not make you safer. Be very very weary of individuals requiring gimmicks to pretend to be something that they are so clearly not. Real men/women don’t rely on gimmicks, let alone guns.

If you meet a mugger in a dark alley, or a burglar in your house, stay very quiet, do what they tell you and give them what they want. It is the most sensible, smart and by far the safest thing to do. Going all macho and trying to shoot the ******* is likely to get you or your loved ones hurt and or killed. The odd gun idiot gets lucky and gets a write up by the NRA. But they don’t write about the thousand, tens of thousand that got killed, directly or indirectly by the general public having almost unlimited access to guns.

And be wary of organisations who have been caught up in fraudulent dealings by their top executives and went bust, so they could set up shop, with no liabilities in another state.

The NRA in the past has attempted to produce statistics showing that guns are safe and bring more safety to the public. Every single report has been absolutely hammered by just about any and all research organisation. Their research is a shoddy as their business ethics.

Jeroen

[nitinsharma1000]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Sure, but that is not the point. This is a pro gun lobby organisation. All the gungho, macho, loonies swinging a gun are members. Spouting the second amendment and their right to bear arms. ( which also shows their lack of historical perspective in my opinion).

So they will publish articles about how peoples have saved their lives, or the life’s of loved ones, because they had a gun. Those stories could well be true. But they are missing the point entirely, because those few “positive gun stories” are completely outnumbered by all the horrendous gun related deaths. They are also choosing to ignore that when you own a gun, statistically you are more likely to be shot. Just like some members on this forum who still believe that owning a gun will make you more safe. As some other members pointed out, it might give you an elevated feeling of power, supremacy and a rush of adrenaline shooting some rounds, but it does not make you safer. Be very very weary of individuals requiring gimmicks to pretend to be something that they are so clearly not. Real men/women don’t rely on gimmicks, let alone guns.

If you meet a mugger in a dark alley, or a burglar in your house, stay very quiet, do what they tell you and give them what they want. It is the most sensible, smart and by far the safest thing to do. Going all macho and trying to shoot the ******* is likely to get you or your loved ones hurt and or killed. The odd gun idiot gets lucky and gets a write up by the NRA. But they don’t write about the thousand, tens of thousand that got killed, directly or indirectly by the general public having almost unlimited access to guns.

And be wary of organisations who have been caught up in fraudulent dealings by their top executives and went bust, so they could set up shop, with no liabilities in another state.

The NRA in the past has attempted to produce statistics showing that guns are safe and bring more safety to the public. Every single report has been absolutely hammered by just about any and all research organisation. Their research is a shoddy as their business ethics.

Jeroen

Nobody is disputing that NRA is a pro-gun lobby. I do NOT follow or agree to their political agenda. Same way I do not agree to the other extreme. I agree that there have to be more checks and balances in acquiring a firearm. First one comes to mind is someone's mental and personality evaluation.

But for someone to say (subject matter expert or not) that you are more likely to get shot if you own a gun is a very generalized statement. Nothing in this world is safe. Anyone could argue that owning a car makes you more susceptible in being hurt by a car. I have owned a firearm since I was in my early twenties. I have some that are more of a hobby collection and some that are mere tools.

I respect your opinions about gun ownership, so I will not be engaging in political discussions further. I will however provide my input about my ownership/experience.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by nitinsharma1000

Recoil has a lot to do with how and where you are holding the butt stock and the stance of the shooter.

In NCC we were only allowed shooting in prone position, I guess it is safer to people around them. So many cadets end up keeping the butt on the collar bone.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by nitinsharma1000

But for someone to say (subject matter expert or not) that you are more likely to get shot if you own a gun is a very generalized statement. Nothing in this world is safe. Anyone could argue that owning a car makes you more susceptible in being hurt by a car. I have owned a firearm since I was in my early twenties. I have some that are more of a hobby collection and some that are mere tools.

I respect your opinions about gun ownership, so I will not be engaging in political discussions further. I will however provide my input about my ownership/experience.

Did you not read the various articles I quoted?? It is not my statement nor is it a very generalized statement. It is backed up by dozens and dozens of research papers.

I will say this though, you do react as just about all gun owners do. The evidence is staring you in the face and you simply choose to ignore it. And the comparisons with a car, or a bicycle is completely wrong as mentioned and explained in earlier posts.

You can count on me to keep posting about various aspects of gun ownership here as well. I don’t think politics come into play at all. Ask my kids, they will tell you I am an old right wing conservative. Being in favour of very strict gun control is just common sense, nothing political as such.

Although I would be the first to agree with you that many a Right wing extremist in the USA and some other countries give good cause to prevent gun ownership completely!

Jeroen

[nitinsharma1000]

Originally Posted by Samurai

In NCC we were only allowed shooting in prone position, I guess it is safer to people around them. So many cadets end up keeping the butt on the collar bone.

I agree, while shooting prone the butt (metal for the Lee Enfield) is right in the bone.

[Fuldagap]

I read the whole thread a few days back for the first time and am mesmerised by folks posting on it so dearly . There are a lot of posts that I want to quote and respond to but it will be a cumbersome task.

Firing a weapon is an art and ability that few possess and even fewer master.
Since the advent of humanity, we have been using tools as weapons for various reasons. The whole animal kingdom is full of different kinds of weapons, mostly body organs in their case. Even plants have certain weapons in their kitty. Sometimes they are used for defence, at other times for offence. Point being, beings are naturally weaponised. Humans have the ability to use anything as a weapon when need be, guns being one purpose built tool.

Research in favour or against gun ownership should be taken with a pinch of salt. 'Empirical data' often seems to suggest a lot of things as per the desired objective. But I could be wrong here.

I personally know many many cases in which a uniformed trained personnel was snatched off his weapon by a certain somebody while at other times a crime was averted just because an average joe was carrying an unloaded weapon. At other times, the situations happened to be drastically different.

In a conflict, it is not the possession of a weapon that averts a situation or makes it worse for the possessor, it is the handling and wielding of the weapon by him. Carry your weapon like a candy and you are sure to get hurt or hurt someone else, or at least get your weapon snatched away. Body language matters too as much as the conviction and mindset of the gun holder. It takes a lot of natural ability and a lot of practice to be able to master a weapon/gun and also be able to carry and wield it properly when situations arise.

Some have a natural ability to race and drive a car at insane levels. A good example would be Ayrton Senna saying the same thing about Michael Schumacher in his days at Benetton. This is what he had to say about him, “Michael Schumacher is very strong, has an extraordinary natural speed”.

Some people are natural 'firers', if you may. They need only a little bit of training to hone their natural skill. It is often seen during training in various places that certain individuals excel much more at making smaller or desired groups as compared to others with the same amount of training. Some never learn even after a lot of training. Something or the other keeps on going wrong with them and they can never figure out what it is. Their whole tenure goes about 'lamba pada and lamba khada' (two terms in Hindi about shot group analysis). Some find it easy to shoot during the day while some have a rare ability to be a fantastic shot even during the night. Some excel with handguns while others are able to use rifles like spoons. Some are equally good at both. People with spectacles find it overwhelmingly difficult to fire during the night due to the development of fog in their lenses.

Weapons training to learn shooting a rifle or a handgun is drastically different.
There are so many steps involved to perfect one's shot that even the release of the trigger, after the shot has been fired, makes a world of a difference. When to hold your breath when to release it, how to place your finger on the trigger, do you squeeze the trigger or give it a jerk, how to zero your weapon so as to compensate for moisture, wind etc. These are only some of the things one has to learn and master before becoming confident in firing. With ample practice and perseverance one doesn't think about these steps and they become part of your muscle memory and reflexes. By ample practice it should be assumed that a lot of ammunition has to be used for a very long period of time under a fantastic trainer in suitable circumstances.

Let alone the general masses, in our country, almost all uniformed personnel are not so good at firing. They are very good at showing that they are following the required protocols though. Selective individuals may be out of the world though. Mostly nobody wants the hassle of carrying and firing a weapon, which requires cleaning and getting it thoroughly checked and passed by the incharge afterwards. Carrying a weapon is a cumbersome task, not for the everyday joe. Handguns might be easier to carry but still it poses some uneasiness.

The word sniper originated in our country but when it comes to sniping, we are among the poor performers in the area.

Having brought up since childhood among guns in the house, the urge never dies to disassemble and clean them. Was never allowed to fire any of those though until did it professionally for work. Having fired and learnt almost all calibres possible in our country, including Five Seven and worthy of mention the 7.62 SVD Dragunov, I will never get over drooling on any of them. It gives immense and endless pleasure to use them. I never get enough of anything I do in life too, be it driving, be it cleaning the house, be it reading books, researching or buying stocks, walking and playing with my dog, cycling, walking or yoga or anything else.

Some people don't ever get hooked to such things as driving a vehicle or firing a weapon or cleaning their premises or shoes or clothes or any other activity. Point being, people have different tastes when it comes to deriving pleasure and satisfaction from an activity. Some ace exams but never take up reading books ever again once their objective has been achieved. Similarly, not everyone derives pleasure from owning or firing a weapon. It is as difficult a chore as reading a book, going for a long run, hitting the gym or driving a car on a daily basis. A military man might hate touching a gun even though he lived his whole life amongst them. Another military guy might be an avid collector or an ace shooter and can't get enough of it even after retirement.

For few owning a gun is as macho a thing as flashing their SUV with butch looks. It doesn't matter to them whether they know anything about their usage or technology or not. Such people sometimes end up in disasters. For others, it could mean the world to them. They take care of their guns as they would their child. Training often dictates treating your weapon like your 'wife'. Always on you while being trained and to be taken immense care of.

Some countries, like Israel, have their personnel carry weapons even while on leave. They carry weapons everywhere, even in coffee shops sometimes. It is an ordinary thing there in such places. In many countries, one could see even normal police personnel handling their guns like professionals. They carry an empty pistol on one side of their holster belt and the magazine on the opposite side. When a situation arises, they put the magazine so fast in the pistol that it would be difficult to see and catch the act.
In India, once a friend from Hyderabad saw a gun shop in Pune and wondered whether it was legal to sell weapons like that. In general, we know a lot less about guns due to maybe the subdued culture by the British.

Approx 500 people die everyday on average of road accidents in India, still one gun casualty makes big news. Not that it shouldn't, but numbers matter too, as much as the sentiment. Even more die due to other reasons, mostly man made.

Some people even derive pleasure in reminding people about how they derive pleasure from certain activities like firing a gun. Of course it does. When you are one with your weapon and you are able to make those groups for shot analysis afterwards, it is indeed a very very satisfying activity. It is as good as meditation. Keeping your breathing under control, looking for that particular moment to gently squeeze the trigger all the while subconsciously picturising the firing mechanism and letting the muzzle rest back into original position so as not to let the next shot mess with the aim. Drunkards would boast about how good a drink they had and how much quantity they drank. They get high and lose their senses. Similar people might get high by firing a weapon or driving a car recklessly or doing any other notorious activity.

Same goes for passionate drivers. They don't drive to flash their ride, they drive for pleasure and satisfaction or maybe just for the heck of it.

The misery is, the world is huge. There are people who have different ambitions and tastes. Not all are good. Even a knife or a car is as good a weapon as a handgun in such hands. We have increasingly seen cars being used to crush people recently in the news. In trained arms even a shoelace or a wooden pencil is as good a weapon as a gun. However, in civilian life it is always better to avoid and escape a scenario than try and engage in a fight.

Gun ownership is a never ending debate and an extremely difficult topic to take sides. A sane mind would derive the same pleasure from firing a weapon (if he likes it) as he would from reading a book, solving a problem or driving a car or any other activity he likes.

For me an untrained or irresponsible person who gets high from firing a weapon would also be a person who would get high using the sunroof of a car for an unintended purpose. The fault is not with having guns, it is having guns with wrong people.