[tj123]

Originally Posted by avdhesh15

As I mentioned, you have to understand more markers than just weight... Such as muscle mass and fast percentage.

As OP mentioned, he's lost muscle mass as well, which might not be the best result moving ahead.

Well you will be happy to know fasting does not lead to muscle mass loss. Infact body starts conserving muscle, because protein turnover is reduced to a sustainable level, while fat oxidation provides most of the energy.

Quoting from dietdoctor- "It seems that there are always concerns about loss of muscle mass during fasting. I never get away from this question. No matter how many times I answer it, somebody always asks, “Doesn’t fasting burn your muscle?”

Let me say straight up, NO.

Here’s the most important thing to remember. If you are concerned about losing weight and reversing T2D, then worry about insulin. Fasting and LCHF will help you. If you are worried about muscle mass, then exercise – especially resistance exercises. OK? Don’t confuse the two issues. We always confuse the two issues because the calorie enthusiast have intertwined them in our minds like hamburgers and french fries.

Weight loss and gain is mostly a function of DIET. You can’t exercise your way out of a dietary problem. Remember the story of Peter Attia? A highly intelligent doctor and elite level distance swimmer, he found himself on the heavy end of the scale, and it was not muscle. He was overweight despite exercising 3-4 hours a day. Why? Because muscle is about exercise, and fat is about diet. You can’t out-run a bad diet.

Muscle gain/ loss is mostly a function of EXERCISE. You can’t eat your way to more muscle. Supplement companies, of course, try to convince you otherwise. Eat creatine (or protein shakes, or eye of newt) and you will build muscle. That’s stupid. There’s one good way to build muscle – exercise. So if you are worried about muscle loss – exercise. It ain’t rocket science. Just don’t confuse the two issues of diet and exercise. Don’t worry about what your diet (or lack of diet – fasting) is doing to your muscle. Exercise builds muscle. Clear? "

Read the full article on- https://www.dietdoctor.com/fasting-muscle-mass

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by graaja

To give a background, I am an amateur triathlete and train 6 days a week and have been incorporating LCHF and IF into my training schedule.

This is theoretically possible. Exercise can be used to use up all the glucose in the blood and bring down insulin to zero. But the amount of exercise you need to bring down insulin to zero will be very high. You need to do some really high intensity workouts with heart rate at 150+ that will use up all the sugar in your blood. It is not just enough to remove insulin, you need to extend the window when insulin is absent. Only then the HGH or glucagon will get some time to do their job. This would mean not eating anything after exercise, which usually is tough. Usually, most of us get really hungry after an intense workout and the reaction is to eat well after a workout.

Bro, can you please help me by being "specific" and making two lists here of actual items (not general statements like processed foods, complex carbs, high glycemic index, etc.) for my two daily meals (lunch and dinner) of -

What to eat

and

What not to eat

This is for IF with daily exercise (1.5-2 hours).

The other unknown for me is what do I do on Sunday when I do my century ride or beyond? Not eat during the ride? Not eat till 2 p.m. after coming home?

I have no problem with not eating carbs. Eating proteins. Both are clear in normally eaten food items on our Indian plate.

Its the fats that I am struggling with. You can't EAT fats. Fats will be part of some of the food items unvarying quantities. But unlike carbs (rice, pasta) or protein (meat, chicken, eggs, fish), fats are not food items per se.

To give you an example. This is the closest I came to with designing a fat rich meal .... at an Irani cafe. Bun double maska and a bowl of fresh malai.



Oil, butter, ghee are all fine. But you cannot EAT them as food?!!

Cheers, Doc

[graaja]

Originally Posted by ebonho

Bro, can you please help me by being "specific" and making two lists here of actual items (not general statements like processed foods, complex carbs, high glycemic index, etc.) for my two daily meals (lunch and dinner) of -

What to eat

and

What not to eat

The other unknown for me is what do I do on Sunday when I do my century ride or beyond? Not eat during the ride? Not eat till 2 p.m. after coming home?

It is a little difficult to give specific menus without knowing what you regularly get to eat. I will still try

What not to eat:
1. Sugar
2. Rice
3. Stuff made of maida - bread, bun, naan etc.
4. Noodles, pasta etc.

What to eat (in the order of preference):
1. Meat
2. Eggs
3. Paneer, cheese
3. Vegetables. Just avoid potatoes
4. Dal
5. Millets - Millets are commonly used in South India and we use it as a substitute for rice. But I am not sure about the availability or usage of millets in the north
6. Rotis - besan preferred over wheat

For getting good amount of fat, here are some good choices.
1. Make an omlete with full eggs, butter and add grated cheese (not the mozeralla, but regular cheese)
2. Saute vegetables with butter or ghee and if you like add grated cheese
3. Saute paneer with onions and capsicum in butter

For your lunch and dinner, have big servings of vegetables and dal and keep the rotis limited to two. For snacks, you can have roasted almonds, omlettes, scrambled eggs.

On Sundays that you do your century ride, add carbs around your workout. Have a pre-ride snack of a couple of toasts with peanut butter and a couple of bananas. During ride, you can take energy bars, enerzal etc. Post ride, have two or three eggs and then have your lunch and dinner from the list of "what to eat".

Hope this helps.

Try this for a few weeks and see how your weight responds. If you still do not see any progress in weight loss, then I think proper keto would be the way to go till you achieve your goal weight.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by graaja

It is a little difficult to give specific menus without knowing what you regularly get to eat. I will still try

What not to eat:
1. Sugar
2. Rice
3. Stuff made of maida - bread, bun, naan etc.
4. Noodles, pasta etc.

What to eat (in the order of preference):
1. Meat
2. Eggs
3. Paneer, cheese
3. Vegetables. Just avoid potatoes
4. Dal
5. Millets - Millets are commonly used in South India and we use it as a substitute for rice. But I am not sure about the availability or usage of millets in the north
6. Rotis - besan preferred over wheat

For getting good amount of fat, here are some good choices.
1. Make an omlete with full eggs, butter and add grated cheese (not the mozeralla, but regular cheese)
2. Saute vegetables with butter or ghee and if you like add grated cheese
3. Saute paneer with onions and capsicum in butter

For your lunch and dinner, have big servings of vegetables and dal and keep the rotis limited to two. For snacks, you can have roasted almonds, omlettes, scrambled eggs.

On Sundays that you do your century ride, add carbs around your workout. Have a pre-ride snack of a couple of toasts with peanut butter and a couple of bananas. During ride, you can take energy bars, enerzal etc. Post ride, have two or three eggs and then have your lunch and dinner from the list of "what to eat".

Hope this helps.

Try this for a few weeks and see how your weight responds. If you still do not see any progress in weight loss, then I think proper keto would be the way to go till you achieve your goal weight.

Thanks Ganesh!

The do-not-eats I have cut out already, so all good there. Would be nice to be able to eat a couple of rotis though ...
Few tweaks I am going to try out from today at the start of week #2

1) Have lunch earlier at 12:30 instead of 2:00

2) Eat an early supper .... by 6:00 (or as early as I reach home)

3) Try reducing the portion sizes of everything at lunch (when I'm hungriest .... since its essentially breakfast after a long fasted period + 2 hour morning bike ride)

4) Get Amul unsalted butter and cow ghee / brown ghee and apply liberally to and eat along with whatever is cooked at home as dressing.

5) Supper to include either a couple of eggs or chicken, a vegetable, and a dal.

6) Will try out the besan rotis (2) ... are they made of normal besan? We make a sort of omlette of besan (with tomato, chillies, onions, etc.). Never tried rotis.

I'm thinking extending the fasted duration when I hit my bike will make the body burn fat for energy quicker/surer.


For instance, I'm currently finishing dinner only by 10. That means I am exercising 8 hours later. Still within the 12 hour Insulin window.


If I manage to eat by 6, then my exercise is outside the 12 hour Insulin window, and fat burning happens then.
Hope that makes sense.

Cheers, Doc

P.S. We have a south Indian cook at home. Most of their dishes have coconut. Like their vegetable preparations. Is coconut allowed?

P.S. Mods for some reason, both on my computer as well as phone, one enter is showing as a double-line space in my posts. I don't know why that is happening. But it's too cumbersome to go back and edit each and every one individually.

[graaja]

Originally Posted by ebonho

I'm thinking extending the fasted duration when I hit my bike will make the body burn fat for energy quicker/surer.

...

P.S. We have a south Indian cook at home. Most of their dishes have coconut. Like their vegetable preparations. Is coconut allowed?

Yes. Workout towards the end of the fasting window will help in burning fat.

Coconut is a very good source of dietary fat. Go ahead and add it to the diet.
In fact, we have replaced refined oil with coconut oil and ghee in about 90% of cooking at home.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by tj123

Weight loss and gain is mostly a function of DIET. You can’t exercise your way out of a dietary problem.

Originally Posted by graaja

Yes. Workout towards the end of the fasting window will help in burning fat.

Guys, I'm getting a bit confused. I understand that overdoing the fats or carbs or sugar will lead to weight gain even if you are exercising regularly. But I'm surprised to hear that diet is more important than exercise when it comes to burning fat. My assumption was always that if you are exercising regularly (and I don't mean weights in the gym, I mean some sport that involves rapid movement) and to the limit of your ability, you don't need to overdo the calorie counting or have to obsess about what you eat and when.

I realize it's a lot more complicated than that, but what's the weightage (haha) of exercise vis-a-vis diet wrt weight loss? Layman's terms and real world experience not 'mens's health' article terminology (LCF, ketosis, etc, etc) please.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by graaja

Yes. Workout towards the end of the fasting window will help in burning fat.

Coconut is a very good source of dietary fat. Go ahead and add it to the diet.
In fact, we have replaced refined oil with coconut oil and ghee in about 90% of cooking at home.

So curd is a no. Onions, tomatoes, and colored bell peppers are a caution. Legumes, lentils, beans are all a no.

So I am really confused about the dal bit. I remember when I did keto last I was told no dal.

Problem for us Indians is, if we cut out dal, then there is nothing wet and liquid to have with sookha food. As if cutting out rice and rotis was not drastic enough. Or are some dals like moong allowed/good. Lots of heated controversy on that.

Cheers, Doc

[graaja]

Originally Posted by ebonho

So curd is a no.

Onions, tomatoes, and colored bell peppers are a caution.
Legumes, lentils, beans are all a no. So I am really confused about the dal bit. I remember when I did keto last I was told no dal.
Problem for us Indians is, if we cut out dal, then there is nothing wet and liquid to have with sookha food.
As if cutting out rice and rotis was not drastic enough.
Or are some dals like moong allowed/good. Lots of heated controversy on that.

Cheers, Doc

Legumes and dairy products are not allowed when you do a strict Keto. My understanding is that you want to do a sustainable diet (try to eat as much regular as possible) with IF. My suggestions were based on that. And I had also mentioned if this does not work for you, you will have to consider going proper Keto

Originally Posted by am1m

...I realize it's a lot more complicated than that, but what's the weightage (haha) of exercise vis-a-vis diet wrt weight loss? Layman's terms and real world experience not 'mens's health' article terminology (LCF, ketosis, etc, etc) please.

When it comes to weight, I would still say it is 90:10 (or may be 80:20) for diet:exercise. This becomes more evident as you become old and your metabolism slows down. Younger people who are in their 20's or early 30's, if they are already physically active can delay this slow down of metabolism, but can not escape it altogether. As you get older, even if you keep physically active, a bad diet will result in weight gain

[srishiva]

Originally Posted by am1m

Guys, I'm getting a bit confused. I understand that overdoing the fats or carbs or sugar will lead to weight gain even if you are exercising regularly. But I'm surprised to hear that diet is more important than exercise when it comes to burning fat. My assumption was always that if you are exercising regularly (and I don't mean weights in the gym, I mean some sport that involves rapid movement) and to the limit of your ability, you don't need to overdo the calorie counting or have to obsess about what you eat and when.

I realize it's a lot more complicated than that, but what's the weightage (haha) of exercise vis-a-vis diet wrt weight loss? Layman's terms and real world experience not 'mens's health' article terminology (LCF, ketosis, etc, etc) please.

What is easier to do ? You can lose 2000 calories by not eating one day. For the same you need to run a marathon. So diet with exercise is the best. I workout at gym for 2 hours and have many friends who do it. Just working out without changing your diet practically leads to nothing great. Thats why most people dont continue.

[graaja]

Originally Posted by srishiva

So diet with exercise is the best. I workout at gym for 2 hours and have many friends who do it. Just working out without changing your diet practically leads to nothing great. Thats why most people dont continue.

Agreed. That is the best possible combination - eating right and exercising. Eating right will prevent the body from storing too much fat, and exercising will keep your metabolism active and will help burn fat.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by graaja

This becomes more evident as you become old and your metabolism slows down. Younger people who are in their 20's or early 30's, if they are already physically active can delay this slow down of metabolism,

Agree, this has been my experience too over my 20s, 30s and now as I'm just about to enter my 40s. The amount I need to be active to keep fat off has gone up.

But I'm still very surprised by these numbers:

Originally Posted by graaja

When it comes to weight, I would still say it is 90:10 (or may be 80:20) for diet:exercise.

Originally Posted by srishiva

I workout at gym for 2 hours and have many friends who do it. Just working out without changing your diet practically leads to nothing great.

That is precisely why i was careful to say I didn't mean exercising in a gym (which I too consider a total waste of time). I meant exercise by pursuing an active sport (and not something like cricket ).

Thank you both for your responses. Absolutely true that a combination of both diet+exercise is the best way to go.

Still feel we tend to overdo the calorie counts and the "eat this...not this" (especially when the trends keep changing with each health magazine article) aspect and not focus enough on the 'keep on moving' aspect. Personally, I've found good results with multiple sports. Has helped keep the fat off without my having to worry too much about my diet. And it's a whole lot more fun!

[graaja]

Originally Posted by am1m

Still feel we tend to overdo the calorie counts and the "eat this...not this" (especially when the trends keep changing with each health magazine article) aspect and not focus enough on the 'keep on moving' aspect. Personally, I've found good results with multiple sports. Has helped keep the fat off without my having to worry too much about my diet. And it's a whole lot more fun!

I have another observation.

Not many people can sustain a very active lifestyle like indulging in some form of sports. From what I have observed within my family, friends and colleagues circles, only a handful (I would say less than 5%) can even take part in physical activities. Everyone else is averse to physical activities. Add to this aversion, a bad diet, I see lots of unhealthy people around me and I too was an example a few years back.

However, I have observed maybe 15% to 20% can easily switch over to a good diet (even Keto). In the past couple of years, I have seen about 4 or 5 in my immediate family circle change over to low carb diet and have lost weight, reversed diabetes etc.

There are about 75% of people who would not do any physical activity nor are they willing to control what they eat (too attached to food) and suffer from all sorts of health issues.

So, when it comes to being healthy, more people can be converted to a healthy life with diet than exercise. Just my thought.

[Manoj2268]

Currently on the 16-8 IF regimen for the last 50 days. Now I want to increase it to 18-6 or higher. One question to the team out here.

Currently, I have a cup of black coffee before I leave for work. Will having a couple of spoons of Isabgol break the IF routine? The dietary chart of Psyllium husk is 16 cal per spoon. No Carbs or Fats.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by graaja

So, when it comes to being healthy, more people can be converted to a healthy life with diet than exercise. Just my thought.

I agree.

I've been lucky that there are opportunities in my city to pursue the sport I do. The groups of people who practice them are also a whole lot of fun, so that makes you want to stick to the sport. The only downside (not really a downside but...) is that there are very few people my age in those groups and sometimes, I do miss the 'older' conversation topics during downtime. Sometimes, I feel like I'm babysitting! Maybe in the long run it'll keep my mind young (hopefully)! But yeah, not easy to find something and stick to it. But once you do, it's addictive and fun!

[graaja]

Originally Posted by Manoj2268

Currently on the 16-8 IF regimen for the last 50 days. Now I want to increase it to 18-6 or higher. One question to the team out here.

Currently, I have a cup of black coffee before I leave for work. Will having a couple of spoons of Isabgol break the IF routine? The dietary chart of Psyllium husk is 16 cal per spoon. No Carbs or Fats.

Check out this article.

http://siimland.com/what-breaks-a-fa...ttent-fasting/

I would say avoid anything that has calories to keep the fasting state.