[hemanth.anand]

Originally Posted by redCherry

Despite this luck, England seem to be heading towards 0-4

Thant's alright... what's important is no one is throwing away their wicket like Pant did vs SA

[Bhargav7]

Originally Posted by ABHI_1512

We all know Sanju Samson is a better keeper batsman than Pant but then if powers to be prefer him, there is no way he can be kept out !!

I am not sure about keeping. But in terms of batting, Pant is a far superior batter compared to Samson. Sanju Samson seems to have a spectacular innings once in a while and a string of mediocre performances. Even in terms of numbers, Pant has better averages in all formats (ODIs, T20s, List A, and First class). Infact, he has better First class average than Saha, Ishan Kishan and KS Bharat.

If he can work on his reckless dismissals, I guess he can be a great test cricketer.

[Ananthang]

Pant should only be dropped for a series to make him understand that he is not default choice and he has to learn to play as per situation. Quick fire 20/30 is not going to help in Test match but it has to be a partnership that also kills days and overs.

We should anyway have a back up keeper if Pant gets injured as it would be too much work load for KL to captain, keep and open innings.

[ABHI_1512]

@antz.bin has articulated the views about Pant very nicely. Besides, red ball cricket demands specialists. I still remember the series against Australia last year when Pant missed catches galore and how those missed chances affected the games for India. Everyone knows how he fared in England. This talk of Pant being a game changer should stop now.

@harry10 mentioned that if we can carry Pujara and Rahane along then Pant should be given chances as well. It’s like comparing apples with oranges. Pujara and Rahane have earned their chances while Pant is always a bloke who plays with no care in the world. While that approach works great in T20s and to an extent one dayer’s, the same doesn’t work out in the tests where your technique gets caught out pretty soon. If being young is a criteria then we can also try out Sanju Samson or anyone for that matter, what’s wrong in trying anyways ? Pant can always get back if he performs well in the domestic circuit and improves on his wicket keeping skills.

Also, while we are fixated with Rahane and Pujara, it’s also true that even Virat Kohli doesn’t have a century for the last two years ! It’s the bowlers who have been winning us the test matches since the past few years.

[harry10]

In 90 test matches MS Dhoni has a career average of 38 with 33 fifties and 6 centuries (none in SENA).

In 27 matches so far Pant has a average of 37.4 with 7 fifties and 3 centuries( 1 in England and 1 in Australia ).

This isn't a comparison but an overview to state Pant isn't doing as bad as people are making him to be. Dhoni was obviously a superior keeper. There is no denying that shot by Pant was rubbish and he will be given an earful from coach. Mistakes happen. But, I will still say he is a match winner. All he needs is to become more responsible and improve his temperament. Only replacement for Pant in domestic is KS Bharat. If Pant doesn't improves his attitude then give bharat a chance. Young aggressive players often aren't consistent. Look at Rohit Sharma, no one was given a bigger rope than him and he justified it after few years. If he was dropped just because he used to play bad shots to get out he wouldn't be the player he is today. Just my opinion.

Fun fact-
Rishabh Pant is averaging 39.5 in 2021.
Kohli is 28.21
Pujara is 27.7
Rahane is 19.2

So, who should be the first one to be dropped is an easy decision.

@Abhi1512- A person without technique won't be able to score century in England and Australia. Or a series winning 97 at Aussie fortress Gabba. Joe Root who is in form of his life still hasn't scored a single century in Australia in his career. Where as Bairstow who is an attacking player like Pant scored one today itself in 4th test. No one can play at this level without good technique. As for Sanju Samson, he hasn't even got an impressive domestic record let alone performing on international level. Even Ishan kishan is better than him. Good wicket keeper batsman are a rare commodity.

And a word on Kohli.
He is in a bad patch since 2 years. But, everytime he bats he looks in touch and then gets out. So, there is still hope for him to get it back. Plus his captaincy is such a big booster in tests. Even if he plays just as a specialist captain it's worth it if we keep winning series after series. By the way even after his bad patch he still has a career average of 50.3 which is among world's best.

[ABHI_1512]

^^
I understand Pant is seen as an impact player but I would want him to perform more as a responsible batsman in red ball cricket. India has been playing with five bowlers since long and this makes Pant more of a specialist batsman, which he is clearly not responding to.

As for the centuries, Pant has played around 8 tests and 15 innings in England, take out his century and a half century, he has got nothing to show. His average improves in Australia because of those two innings but that’s about it. I still consider him as a technically challenged player. Heck, even Shardul Thakur shows more intent than him in staying at the wicket. The less said about his keeping skills the better. It has improved no doubt but his crucial misses are not forgotten. Yes, Pant should be given chances and he has been given those chances. He is young and can always come back. My point is limited- he is making the same mistakes over and over again. Please don’t forget that Pant also came from the IPL and players who are raised on T20 have difficulties in playing the red ball cricket.

Rohit Sharma was given a long rope just as Sehwag was once upon a time and both have proved themselves to be the match winners. But Pant is not there yet despite being given many chances. Wicket keeping is a specialists job, one has to be groomed but not when one player keeps repeating the same mistakes over and over again.

As for Kohli, I consider him one of the greats of the game. I enjoy watching him ever since he started playing and when he is at the crease, it’s a joy to watch. He is pure class and we are fortunate to watch him play, period.

[Eddy]

Boss, Pant is in it for the long haul. Bharath will be the 2nd choice, just like MSD and Saha. Even in his current form, Pant has batted better than the entire middle order put together and his keeping has improved by leaps and bounds. Don't think Samson, Ishan etc are even being considered for red-ball cricket.

The only thing that I do not see happening is Pant becoming a successful captain, either in IPL or international cricket.

[vibbs]

Guys, the problem with Pant is not Pant. The problem is shitty indian middle order. As I said, before, if the middle order had performed as their average a couple of years ago, we would not be having this debate about Pant and his mode of dismissals.

In the end he is a wicketkeeper batsman. He cannot and should not be expected to bail out the batting in every match. That's what numbers 3,4 and 5 are for.

We are fussing about the wrong problem.

[pandey.jai]

Originally Posted by vibbs

In the end he is a wicketkeeper batsman. He cannot and should not be expected to bail out the batting in every match. That's what numbers 3,4 and 5 are for.

We are fussing about the wrong problem.

In my opinion, it’s not about Pant bailing out the team every match. It’s about taking responsibility and not playing a silly shot, in an apparent rush of blood.

Indian middle order is a problem but that should not discount for the irresponsible nature of Pant’s batting, which is also a problem.
Edit:
Also to add, Pant was batting at number 6. That’s middle order too, isn’t it?

[vibbs]

Originally Posted by pandey.jai

In my opinion, it’s not about Pant bailing out the team every match. It’s about taking responsibility and not playing a silly shot, in an apparent rush of blood.

Indian middle order is a problem but that should not discount for the irresponsible nature of Pant’s batting, which is also a problem.
Edit:
Also to add, Pant was batting at number 6. That’s middle order too, isn’t it?

I don't disagree with you that he played irresponsibily. But my question is also then what is his role?

If we think of him as a specialist batsman who will always score some runs, we are having wrong expectation. He is in the team to provide an impetus at the lower middle order. Some time it clicks, sometimes not. When he reverse sweeps pacers in test matches and it goes for a six on the way to score a fifty or a hundred, we applaud him. We should also be aware that this approach comes with a trade off. He will falter more than he will deliver.

To have the luxury of such a batsman playing at number 6, the middle order needs (I mean numbers 3,4 and 5) to be solid. This tempers the overall risk for the team. But when these people don't do their jobs, Pant comes across as being rash. Because 9 out of 10 times he is in a position where we are in a ditch and he has to bail us out. If that is the expectation, he is not the batsman for it.

If the middle order was half decent, we would not be having this talk.

[harry10]

Originally Posted by vibbs

I don't disagree with you that he played irresponsibily. But my question is also then what is his role?

To have the luxury of such a batsman playing at number 6, the middle order needs (I mean numbers 3,4 and 5) to be solid. This tempers the overall risk for the team. But when these people don't do their jobs, Pant comes across as being rash. Because 9 out of 10 times he is in a position where we are in a ditch and he has to bail us out. If that is the expectation, he is not the batsman for it.

If the middle order was half decent, we would not be having this talk.

Nicely summarised.
We all agree his shot was absolutely ridiculous. He misread the situation, sledging got to his head, tried to assert dominance and failed. I am sure he will do better in 3rd test not just cos Dravid had a stern talk with him but he himself knows the mistake he made. Failure hurts the individual most than anyone else. I hope coach gives him some pointers. His problem is whenever he wants to attack he tries to come down the wicket and smash resulting in getting out of shape. If he stays at the crease he has a better chance of reading line and length and improvising his shot.

Middle order has been the problem since long. Nothing is done to correct it. On top of it Ashwin is literally useless on these pitches as a spin bowler but we still need to play him because he is more reliable batsman than middle order and to control the over rate which has already deducted 2 WTC points for us. Otherwise Vihari/Iyer could play at 6 and Pant at 7 which would be ideal.

I read the Bairstow article yesterday. He was 8 years old when he walked on his father who committed suicide. His mother was battling with breast cancer at that time. To overcome so much emotional, physical and financial trouble so early in his life is commendable. He is one of the best batter in white ball and people ridicule him as a test player but he still keeps on coming back to play because it was his father David's dream.

Pant too had so much financial trouble coming up the ranks. Most of Indian cricketers have similar struggling life stories. We judge them easily but forget the journey they have endured to be at that position.

[ABHI_1512]

Agree with @vibbs above, Pant is not responsible for carrying the Indian batting on his shoulders. But I do expect him to support the main batsmen when someone is at the crease. Anyways, I guess Rahul Dravid will surely have a talk with him and I hope that will have a calming effect on him. As I mentioned earlier, this is the weakest South African team ever and India should do well to win the series this time. That they managed to win the second test still rankles and that is why Pant is facing so much flak since it was his irresponsible shot that tilted the balance in South Africa’s way !!

Originally Posted by harry10

Pant too had so much financial trouble coming up the ranks. Most of Indian cricketers have similar struggling life stories. We judge them easily but forget the journey they have endured to be at that position.

I am sure no one is judging Pant as a person but as a player. He is there in the Indian team because of his cricketing quality and not because he has had a struggling life !!

[hemanth.anand]

A hard fought draw for English in the 4th ashes test. The last 10overs of th match was gripping to watch!

with all the fielders around the bat, Broad, leach and anderson held on to It draw which was amazing to watch.

[ABHI_1512]

^^ The intent shown by Anderson and Broad to stay at the wicket was stupendous to watch. This is what makes Test Cricket so much interesting. Sometimes saving a test match is as good as winning. Two standout matches from last week, one from New Zealand and one from the Ashes. I wish, I could have added the one from South Africa as well !!

[landcruiser123]

Pant is there to stay. He's only a 24 years old and the closest to Virender Sehwag (Only AbD and maybe KP probably ranks higher) in terms of impact. We need him in our side and I won't hesitate to say he needs to show some responsibility and take calculated risks. His keeping has definitely improved.

Samson, Saha (even better keeper than MSD) etc are nowhere close in terms of batting capability. I don't know about Ishan Kishans red ball game.

Originally Posted by ABHI_1512

Two standout matches from last week...... I wish, I could have added the one from South Africa as well !!

If you look at it in terms of a cricket fan, that was a good win for RSA. Dean Elgar (probably) played an innings of a lifetime.

For the overall competitiveness, I hope this marks a revival of South African cricket.