[PrasannaDhana]

Great info! Thanks!

But reading about this makes me feel so much better to just kick down that heavy clutch of our Vento 1.5 tdi and drive the nuts out of it as I wish, instead of owning an AT Vento & being preoccupied with the health of DSG. Well, a little leg workout that is though

[issac.joseph.f1]

Hello all,

Since this thread is about DSG gearbox, I thought this is the best thread to post my query and experience and get a feedback from the community.

So I own a skoda kodiaq 2018 model. It came with an eco mode when you select via the infotainment system. So when the car is in that mode, and you lift off from the accelerator, the gear indicator on the MFD shows just E. And RPM drops to idle. Which means that it is in neutral gear. And the moment I accelerate or brake it selects a gear. This really helps with the fuel economy. Last year (2021 December) I got a pre-owned 2018 Octavia 1.8 tsi. And this car does not have the eco mode inbuilt, so I coast by moving the lever to neutral. And again, this is really helping the fuel economy. Braking isn't a issue, as I do this only when I have long empty stretch ahead of me.

So what I want to discuss is that, when Kodiaq has an inbuilt programme install by factory for disengaging a gear and moving into neutral and again re-engaging the gear, all while the car is moving. So why would the same done manually cause an issue?

I understand that having the car in gear will have better control when needed. But other than the safety aspects, would this method spoil the transmission?

[jaysheth]

Hello everyone,

Greetings! This is my first post on Team BHP. As a passive reader so far, I have been immensely benefited by various threads on this great forum and would like to thank all contributors for sharing their knowledge and wisdom.

Our Hyundai Santro Xing GLS will turn 13 year old soon and we have been very happy and satisfied with the car. We (myself and my wife) are looking to buy Hyundai i20 Asta (O) DCT as our next car because of the following reasons:

1. Hyundai for the general liking for Hyundai cars, especially considering our experience with it so far
2. i20 as the premium hatchback. A hatchback is more than enough for us
3. Asta (O) as the top-end trim with all features, bells and whistles. I really liked safety features like 6 Airbags, ABS, EBD, ESC, Hill Assist Control, LED projector headlamps with cornering lamps, rear wiper and washer etc., clubbed with some great convenience features like Cruise Control, Sunroof, Rear seat armrest, Bose speakers etc.

Definitely, the asking price is much more compared to other hatchbacks, but we plan to keep this car as our primary car for next 12-15 years at least and do not want to regret having settled for a lower variant just to save some money.

Why am I eyeing the DCT variant

1. Well, I cannot call myself a car enthusiast (though I really like driving), but have been tired of pressing and releasing the clutch in city traffic (Pune + Mumbai). Further, my wife hardly drives, and while she can drive well in sunny day situations, she is not too comfortable with an MT with respect to demanding situations. She would consider driving more if it would be an automatic! For these reasons we do not want an MT for sure.
2. I have taken test ride of DCT and iMT variants, and while iMT is a big relief compared to an MT (freeing up my left lag), I found DCT to be a much bigger relief (freeing up the left hand to a considerable extent too!)
3. My sister has an i20 Sportz iVT and that has been a fuel guzzler! Also I do have a habit of overtaking a lot of vehicles especially on the Pune-Mumbai expressway and ability to select gears/engage lower gears when required is something I would not like to compromise on! (Am referring to the manual mode of the DCT here)
4. We make several Pune-Mumbai trips, and make other pleasure trips to areas around Pune (e.g. Mahabaleshwar). I would personally prefer engaging manual mode uphill/downhill, which is also in line with DCT-driving recommendations.
5. Considering the above factors, we do wish to go with DCT gearbox for the sheer convenience, comfort and the driving pleasure it offers, and this is where we need your help and advice as to whether we should go with DCT. Please read on.

The only apprehension about DCT:

I have read on forums like Team BHP that DCT really heats up in bumper-to-bumper / stop-and-go traffic, and while we do not expect such situations in our daily commuting, traffic conditions in cities like Mumbai are only going to get difficult with passage of time as we all know!

I did go through the 10 commandments of driving a DCT/DSG (DSG, demystified! All you need to know about VW's Direct-Shift Gearbox) and that's a great compilation. However, one question still remains unanswered and that's the reason for this rather-long post:

In bumper-to-bumper traffic, I understand that the DCT gearbox is likely to heat up especially if we are using half-braking, half-crawling, as that puts an extra load to the gear selectors, which are also likely to get confused around (a) whether you want to engage lower gear as you apply (often-half-)brakes, and (b) whether you want to engage higher gear as you accelerate. And quite unfortunately in such situations, you are forced to do both (a) braking and (b) accelerating for a prolonged period of time, leading to heating issues!

My question is simple: Can we not engage the "manual" mode when we encounter bumper-to-bumper / stop-and-go traffic, either on flat terrain or also uphill/downhill? That way we choose and command that we want to remain in the first/desired gear, thereby not confusing the gearbox any further!!

Will the above simple trick not work to not confuse the computer, and rather dictate our preference? It it was such a simple workaround, why has no one mentioned it anywhere? Am I missing something here?

Thanks for reading! Looking forward to benefiting from your advice and experience.

[nikhilthegunner]

Originally Posted by jaysheth

My question is simple: Can we not engage the "manual" mode when we encounter bumper-to-bumper / stop-and-go traffic, either on flat terrain or also uphill/downhill? That way we choose and command that we want to remain in the first/desired gear, thereby not confusing the gearbox any further!!

Will the above simple trick not work to not confuse the computer, and rather dictate our preference? It it was such a simple workaround, why has no one mentioned it anywhere? Am I missing something here?

To answer your question, you could definitely engage manual mode and figure out the gears yourself but that invalidates the point of an automatic transmission. It's meant to give you peace of mind when it comes to shifting gears. Especially when it comes to overtaking, the car will work out what gear to engage based on your accelerator input. If you have to think about which gear to be in and accordingly tell the gearbox, then what's the point of it being automatic?

If you intend to do this, it's better to have an iMT then. Does the same thing you're suggesting for the DCT issues. It'll stay in whatever gear you want until you decide to change. Only the clutch is handled by the car.

This is also generally why you'll see lots of members suggesting TCs and CVTs over DCTs. DCTs just aren't designed to handle Indian stop start conditions. I'd recommend looking at cars with TCs or CVTs to give you peace of mind when driving. They're far more reliable and proven on Indian roads.

[jaysheth]

Originally Posted by nikhilthegunner

If you have to think about which gear to be in and accordingly tell the gearbox, then what's the point of it being automatic?

It is only 10% of the time I am faced with bumper-to-bumper traffic, and only during such situations I am considering using the manual mode. Say we are travelling from Pune to Mumbai and 90% of the journey is very smooth where we can enjoy the convenience of truly automatic car. During the journey, there might be places/junctions where there's stop-and-go-traffic, and only during that lag of the journey we can put the car on manual mode and be mentally relaxed around the heating issues until the road clears up again (where we can switch back to auto/drive mode)! What you are saying is true for those who always face bumper-to-bumper traffic, which (fortunately) is not the case with us (so far)!

[Surya1]

Thanks for such a detailed information post from history to now!
Very informative

[androdev]

Originally Posted by jaysheth

Will the above simple trick not work to not confuse the computer, and rather dictate our preference? It it was such a simple workaround, why has no one mentioned it anywhere? Am I missing something here?

This is a good idea and I'm sure it must have been mentioned somewhere in this thread. In fact, I use this practice on both DCT and TC gearboxes as I don't like the car shifting too many 1-2-1-2s in crawling traffic. I manually "pin" it to 1st gear till the congestion clears up. Of course, having paddle-shifters makes it very effortless to do this. Keeping the gearbox in sports/sports+ mode also prevents the gearbox to do too much of 1-2-1-2 shifting in congestion.

This is not the only concern with DCT. It's good to take manual control to prevent excessing 1-2-1-2 shifts like you suggested but you can't creep in 1st gear as creeping involves slipping the clutch, just like an MT. Dry DCTs are not robust: they have lot more sensors and actuators with lot less thermal management. Not to mention the fact that it is still a relatively new technology yet to be perfected. For hardcore congested urban traffic, DCT is a very poor choice especially if one intends to keep the car for long.

However dry dual clutches are cheaper to make and offer excellent fuel efficiency. Every company is willing to accept any risk if they are able to achieve higher fuel efficiency to meet stringent emission norms. Companies like Toyota and Honda care a lot about their reputation of reliability - it is their main USP. They use Hybrid tech to achieve their emission targets. VW and Hyundai depend on other USPs to sell their cars and bulletproof reliability is not one of them. As long as their warranty claims are under control, they don't mind selling cars with technologies like DCT. So if you take 30,000ft view of corporate strategies, it will all make sense.

As an individual customer, you have to take a call on what's important to you. No car offers perfect package. Do you like what i20 DCT offers as a total package vs say Jazz CVT?

If you do end up buying a DCT, don't sweat too much about prolonging its life. Some basic conceptual understanding that it is a manual transmission underneath is all you need and show "mechanical empathy" when required without overly taxing yourself.

[buzzy_boy]

Originally Posted by jaysheth

Will the above simple trick not work to not confuse the computer, and rather dictate our preference? It it was such a simple workaround, why has no one mentioned it anywhere? Am I missing something here?

DCT is only one of the risk factors. GDI engines are also prone to carbon buildup. Don't expect Xing levels of reliability.

To your question on using the manual mode, the clutch heats up due to slip. Slip is unavoidable while crawling. In a manual transmission, you can control the degree of slip by modulating the clutch pedal. In a DCT, even while using manual mode, you control the slip by using the brakes, and this method is not as efficient as clutch modulation.

But, with all things said and done, if you are careful, and if you engage park while you're standing still, you should be able to avoid heating issues, and preserve clutch. Most manufactures have tuned their dual clutch transmissions for the Indian circumstances; for eg: now, VW's DSG isn't as aggressive during launch as it used to be. So, you should be able to extract approx. 40 - 50 thousand KMs from a clutch pack if you're careful.

[jayram.r]

I drive a Venue DCT to work everyday and encounter bumper to bumper traffic in vast stretches. There is enough leeway given in terms of the DCT heating up to a level where it will give a warning. If you keep putting it in N when standstill in traffic or stop and start situations, it works fine. I haven't encountered any heating issue in past 3 years. I don't engage manual mode nor my car has paddle shifters. It's always better though to take the extended warranty.

Rest aside, the 1 litre turbo is a hoot to drive, even if I have had a tough day at office I look forward to driving back home, it brings a smile to my face every single time.
So don't fret too much, i20 DCT would be similar. Wish you happy motoring

[Valhalla1979]

Originally Posted by jaysheth

I have read on forums like Team BHP that DCT really heats up in bumper-to-bumper / stop-and-go traffic, and while we do not expect such situations in our daily commuting, traffic conditions in cities like Mumbai are only going to get difficult with passage of time as we all know!\

So, a DCT works like a manual transmission. When you are on the brake, it goes to neutral. If you lift of the brake it engages the gear. In stop and go, the best thing to do is wait for a significant gap to open up and then release the brake completely and then engage the brake completely. What you don't want to do is ride on the brake. That will heat up the clutch or whatever works for a clutch in a DCT. Follow that and your transmission is good to go with no problems ever.

Originally Posted by jayram.r

I drive a Venue DCT to work everyday and encounter bumper to bumper traffic in vast stretches. There is enough leeway given in terms of the DCT heating up to a level where it will give a warning.

From what I understand a DCT does not require you to put it in neutral as it does so on its own.

[souvikjana83]

What I understood by looking at DCT issues videos and reading about them is that dry DCT which is being used in Hyundai and Kia cars are not ideal in traffic and in summer season. The main reason is overheating and higher wear and tear. A CVT or Automatic transmission is better suited to Indian conditions. A wet DCT which now comes in Altroz may be a better alternative since the coolant will keep the temperature down.

You should check out the best practices to use DCT before going ahead with it.

[jayram.r]

Originally Posted by Valhalla1979

From what I understand a DCT does not require you to put it in neutral as it does so on its own.

No dear, there is separate neutral to be activated in such scenario.

[Valhalla1979]

Originally Posted by jayram.r

No dear, there is separate neutral to be activated in such scenario.

I think you might be mistaken sir. As far as I understand it, a dct engages neutral.

Can check the link

https://youtu.be/W42zsFYjZvM

Also a good idea to see as it tell you things you need to or rather shouldn't do with a DCT.

[jayram.r]

Originally Posted by Valhalla1979

I think you might be mistaken sir. As far as I understand it, a dct engages neutral.

Am referring to the Hyundai venue owners manual for dct transmission where it states to engage neutral in situation where car is stationary but engine is running.

[jaysheth]

Originally Posted by androdev

This is not the only concern with DCT. It's good to take manual control to prevent excessing 1-2-1-2 shifts like you suggested but you can't creep in 1st gear as creeping involves slipping the clutch, just like an MT.

Thanks @androdev, understood that we can't have manual disengaging of the clutch like we can have for MT. While that's definitely a concern, I am inclined to still take a chance, as I don't encounter bumper-to-bumper traffic everyday just yet

Originally Posted by buzzy_boy

Don't expect Xing levels of reliability.

To your question on using the manual mode, the clutch heats up due to slip. Slip is unavoidable while crawling. In a manual transmission, you can control the degree of slip by modulating the clutch pedal. In a DCT, even while using manual mode, you control the slip by using the brakes, and this method is not as efficient as clutch modulation.

But, with all things said and done, if you are careful, and if you engage park while you're standing still, you should be able to avoid heating issues, and preserve clutch. Most manufactures have tuned their dual clutch transmissions for the Indian circumstances; for eg: now, VW's DSG isn't as aggressive during launch as it used to be. So, you should be able to extract approx. 40 - 50 thousand KMs from a clutch pack if you're careful.

Thank you @buzzy_boy, got your point. But just to be very clear, after 40-50 thousand kms, is there a possibility that I would need to replace the clutch pack? As I understand that would itself go over INR 1L?

Originally Posted by jayram.r

I drive a Venue DCT to work everyday and encounter bumper to bumper traffic in vast stretches. There is enough leeway given in terms of the DCT heating up to a level where it will give a warning. If you keep putting it in N when standstill in traffic or stop and start situations, it works fine. I haven't encountered any heating issue in past 3 years. I don't engage manual mode nor my car has paddle shifters. It's always better though to take the extended warranty.

Rest aside, the 1 litre turbo is a hoot to drive, even if I have had a tough day at office I look forward to driving back home, it brings a smile to my face every single time.
So don't fret too much, i20 DCT would be similar. Wish you happy motoring

Thanks @jayram.r That's pretty encouraging to hear and makes me excited about it.

Originally Posted by Valhalla1979

So, a DCT works like a manual transmission. When you are on the brake, it goes to neutral. If you lift of the brake it engages the gear. In stop and go, the best thing to do is wait for a significant gap to open up and then release the brake completely and then engage the brake completely. What you don't want to do is ride on the brake. That will heat up the clutch or whatever works for a clutch in a DCT. Follow that and your transmission is good to go with no problems ever.

Thank you @Valhalla1979, I really wish it was always possible to wait for a significant gap but the drivers behind me won't be so patient

Thanks everyone, once again, for your candid replies. I am also thinking of going for i20 N Line N8 DCT, instead of i20 Asta O DCT. N line offers stiffer suspension + more responsive steering + paddle shifters + all 4 disc brakes, all of which look appealing for the delta cost of around INR 60K.